Talk:Foreskin

Lack of TotallyDisputed tag

Why does this page not have the TotallyDisputed tag on it? It appears that there are still fights going on about it's content. In this case, it is important that casual viewers be alerted. Disputed does not mean that one or the other side is right, just that there is a dispute, and that seems clearly true. The history shows 50 changes in the last 20 days; that sure looks like a Dispute to me... I have added the tag, in the spirit of editing boldly. JesseW 04:42, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Other comments

Robert Brookes, can you explain why you reverted the changes? Most of the changes I made were small changes in wording, and many of the others simply involved moving paragraphs and sentences around. What specific changes do you think are incorrect, and why? ---thickslab 18:06, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

A picture of a penis is probably offensive to some people. I'd suggest removing it, replacing it with a drawing maybe. Tom 18:15, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Tomf688, perhaps Robert Brookes can elaborate as to whether that was the issue (though he reverted the entire article rather than removing just the image). I've removed the picture.

---thickslab 18:19, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Thick, you have it ass about face. You need to justify the changes you want to make. The onus lies with you. One needs to be vigilant in monitoring the subtle introduction of propaganda by those with an anti-circumcision agenda. Remember NPOV is what this is all about. - Robert Brookes 05:35, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted your reversion Robert since it looks like simple vandalism to me. It is not true that thickslab has to justify evert little edit he makes. You are are the one who is removing factual information. Why are you doing it?

As for the photo. Robert was reverting this page before it was added so I doubt that's this issue. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 06:34, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Smooth muscle fibres in the foreskin keep it close to the glans penis but render the foreskin highly elastic." let's start with this sentence. Why have you removed it? how is it POV? Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 06:39, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Robert, if I've introduced facts that you think are not NPOV, please let's discuss those, rather than simply reverting every change I've made, such as adding headings, correcting spelling, and moving sentences into a more logical order. If there's something I have introduced that you have an issue with, let's see if we can fix t. ---thickslab 14:18, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Robert, please let me know which changes I made that you object to. Then I can redo the changes I made to spelling, re-ordering, re-wording, etc., and make them without the changes you disagree with. ---thickslab 17:34, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

You're trying to reason with someone who does not feel that he is constrained by the same obligations to reach consensus that you are. Reasoning with him appears to be an exercise in frustration--he gets to dictate what the article should say from the comfort of his seat as other Wikipedians do research and go to the ends of the earth for him. (I'll admit that my contempt for Robert's behavior is starting to grow now that I'm watching the circumcision debate more closely.) --[[User:Ardonik|Ardonik(talk)]] 17:59, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
- - - Well actually doing research is for the article not for him. It's never a bad thing to have a well researched article. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 22:17, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- In any case, I've made changes to the wording, headings, sentence ordering, grammar, and spelling, and have tried to avoid adding anything that could be construed as POV in the slightlest. I've made one change in the "surgical modification" section, adding a sentence, and have tried to word it as NPOV as I can. ---thickslab 18:29, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm writing a rfc on his behaviour as we speak. Perhaps you could come and certify it and add evidence to it. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Robert Brookes Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 18:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Theresa, I've added evidence, but I'm fairly new to Wikipedia so I don't feel comfortable certifying just yet. I'll see how he reacts to the latest edit I made, which is mostly just a rewording and rearrangement of the previous article. Let's hope he can then come up with specific objections. ---thickslab 18:52, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Certified. ---thickslab 14:52, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Hodges on foreskin aesthetics

The statement: "A long tapering foreskin was considered to be a mark of male beauty. <http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges2/>" is dubious at best. Hodges is a commited anti-circumcision activist who lays claim to being a "circumcision historian". The statement is an entirely expected conclusion he reached as a result of his research. He is to the anti-circ movement as David Irving is to the Holocaust denialists. This rank speculation should be deleted. - Robert Brookes 06:49, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If Hodges' conclusion is 'rank speculation' then Brookes' speculation about the Amazonian tribes, utterly unsupported by any evidence, is beyond belief. To object to evidence because of the opinions of the researcher and then to introduce speculation without any backup is quite inconsistent. This display of double standards is not helpful to a rational discussion. As for the comparison with David Irving, it is beneath contempt. Michael Glass 08:04, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Hodges' article was published in the Bulletin of the History of Medicine. If the article was as unscholarly as Robert Brookes implies I doubt it would have been published in this journal. I believe that if Robert Brookes has any evidence that the article is unreliable he should state it.Michael Glass 23:43, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article is POV and biased. The man is a rabid foreskin promoter and people should be aware to take that into account before reading his stuff. - Robert Brookes 01:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Of course the article has a point of view, just as you have. However, I think it is reasonable that the link remains so that readers can turn to the article if they want to, and make up their own minds. So far all you have said is that the author is biased. If you can show that the author's facts are wrong, please let us know. - Michael Glass 04:49, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What should stated clearly is that Hodges is an anti-circumcision activist. I will insert such a disclaimer where ever his name appears. - Robert Brookes 17:26, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hodges has also been caught lying[1]. His credibility is limited at best. - Jakew 21:56, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)"

That is disgraceful. I believe that the two of them should have their work expunged from Wikipedia. BTW this seems to be a trend with these foreskinners ... first we had Van Howe admit to "fuzzy math" and now this. It makes one think. - Robert the Bruce 16:00, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It gets worse. Fleiss, Hodges, and Van Howe wrote a paper on "the immunological functions of the human prepuce", claiming to be a review paper. Not only did they base much of their argument on the existence of "Tyson's glands" (ignoring the fact that Taylor's paper - which they cited - found that they don't exist), they completely ignored the 5 or 6 papers which show that the presence of the foreskin is associated with an increase in pathogenic bacteria! Also, in a discussion piece he (Van Howe) "distorts, misquotes, and misrepresents the bulk of the literature he claims support his opinions" and even misconstrues his own published findings (on balanitis). (quoted from Professor Brian Morris I've discussed the absurdities of Van Howe's cost-utility elsewhere on these pages. It is becoming increasingly clear that certain anti-circumcision authors are engaging in a disinformation campaign. This amounts to little more than vandalism of medical knowledge. - Jakew 00:57, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And to think that by continuing to include this disgraceful stuff on the website cirp.org is aiding and abetting this disinformation campaign. I move that cirp.org be given the gypsy's warning ... either they remove the trash from the website or be banned from Wikipedia as a source. - Robert the Bruce 01:38, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we should just move anti-circ authors to a sub-page under Psychiatry... - Jakew 02:55, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. I have often wondered what floats their boats if it is not a Foreskin fetish then perhaps they would make suitable subjects for case study research. Its scary to think what may be found out. - Robert the Bruce 03:12, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If there was any doubt in the past that Robert and Jake are pro-circumcision activists, there should be no doubt now. It is interesting Jake quotes Brian Morris who is also a pro-circumcision activist.

If we use Jake's or Robert's standard for including authors, all the references to articles by pro-circumcision activists Edgar Schoen or Thomas Wiswell would have to be deleted from Wikipedia.

In my opinion most people who oppose non-therapeutic circumcision of children do so because they feel cutting the genitals of a child without a valid medical indication is a violation of that child's basic human rights.

Neonatal circumcision is not medically necessary. That is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of professional medical organizations in Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia summarizes current medical opinion on neonatal circumcision as follows:

"Infant male circumcision was once considered a preventive health measure and was therefore adopted extensively in Western countries. Current understanding of the benefits, risks and potential harm of this procedure, however, no longer supports this practice for prophylactic health benefit. Routine infant male circumcision performed on a healthy infant is now considered a non-therapeutic and medically unnecessary intervention."

-- DanBlackham 06:27, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) have difficulty beleive me that any human anatomical picture be deleted because of a hmm cultural imperative.

  What  next  an  obese  person  should  not   encounter  pictures  of  food?

Schoeberlein

The sentence about evolutionary changes is pure speculation and is not supported by the reference.Michael Glass 08:25, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Define speculation if you will because I see no substantiation of what is often claimed about the foreskin. You delete that then the other speculation must go. - Robert Brookes 01:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Robert, I gather that you do not accept what Cold and Taylor have discovered about the foreskin, but that is a separate matter to the following sentence:

This is seen by some as evidence of the evolutionary process dealing with the now redundant foreskin.

Who are those who see this as evidence of the evolutionary process? Where is the evidence that the foreskin can be described as 'redundant'? To establish this you will need to provide at least one reference. This might be your opinion, but the opinion of one does not translate into 'some'. - Michael Glass 04:40, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No-one has posted any evidence here to back up the statement that I objected to. I shall therefore delete it as it is pure speculation. Michael Glass 12:48, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Footnotes

I think the designation "Note: This is an anti-circumcision site." to references to CIRP unfair. While it is true that CIRP is opposed to circumcision it is also true that CIRP is listed as a reference by the British Medical Journal. Both these facts should be mentioned or both should be removed. I would prefer that both facts should be drawn to the attention of the reader.Michael Glass 23:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What exactly do you have against the truth? Cirp is anti-circumcision. So much so that it inserts comment into the articles on its web site to ensure that people get to interpret the article "correctly". It is quite disgraceful. - Robert Brookes 01:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please look at what I proposed: putting your point in more neutral language and pointing out that CIRP is endorsed by the BMJ. As for CIRP's editorialising, it is clearly marked as such. Editorialising that I have noticed is usually sparse and directed towards ideas and concepts in articles that has since been superseded by later research. The critical reader is free to accept or reject the editorialising because it is so clearly marked. Michael Glass 02:14, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Concerning this recent revert, the language that was there before your revert was more informative, and still kept the spirit of your sentiment (namely, that the links were to anti-circumcision sites.) I don't understand why you made that revert--the language really was better. (I note that Theresa Knott reverted your revert soon after.) The seeds of compromise need to be watered and nurtured, not fried in hot oil for an afternoon snack! Why not rework instead of reverting if there's something specific that you object to? --Ardonik.talk() 20:26, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Cirp and the BMJ

Well one again folks here is another calculated deceit from our anti-circumcision friends that needs to be exposed. It is claimed that cirp.org is listed in the BMJ as a reference. Correct up to a point. Go read this: [2]. Yes it is there together with the yellow pages and train timetables. Nowhere does it claim that cirp.org is endorsed by the BMJ. Lies and deceit like this should be exposed and the perpetrators (in this case Michael and Theresa) should receive official wikipedia censure. How does one arrange this? - Robert Brookes 01:42, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Robert Brookes, Michael Glass did not claim that CIRP is "endorsed" by the BMJ. What he claimed is that it is listed as a reference, which is true. Your implication that he claimed that the BMJ "endorsed" CIRP is incorrect. ---thickslab 03:13, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
- It is on a list together with train time tables and the online yellow pages. It is a shameless attempt to obtain respectability by association. - Robert Brookes 04:46, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  - Honestly, Robert, this is really getting annoying. Listed on that page: a link to NIH's Office of Alternative Medicine, the Cancer Genome Anatomy Project, the Royal Society of Medicine, the Royal College of Pathologists, the American government's Healfinder, the Royal College of Physicians' Continuing Medical Education site, King's College Medical School's Gulf War Illness Unit, a white paper on the NHS, Ethnic Medicine Guide, and a Pediatrics site. All those in addition to the link to a yellow pages site, a rail site, and a teletext site. Your statement that anyone claimed that the BMJ "endorsed" CIRP is still false, and it's still true that the site is listed as a reference. ---thickslab 12:18, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

Probably with every edition Mark Pallen provides a number of online resources. Throw-away filler stuff. To claim that The BMJ lists it as a resource is disengenous. These people are attempting to achieve respectability through association. What exactly is your problem? - Robert Brookes 16:23, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fact: Mark Pallen is a professor of Microbiology at Birmingham University. Fact: The site is linked to from a BMJ site, with other medical sites. Despite what you have claimed, nobody here has said that the BMJ "endorses" CIRP, simply that BMJ lists it as a resource. I don't have a problem, and would appreciate that you don't take such a combative tone with me in the future. ---thickslab 17:07, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
- So what are you saying here? That it is the professor of microbiology who says CIRP is a useful resource? So can I then remove the reference to BMJ? - Robert Brookes 16:25, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  - I'm saying that you've been misleading when you wrote that people claimed the BMJ "endorses" CIRP. I'm saying that your implication that Mark Pallen is simply another Internet yahoo who compiles lists is false (He's a microbiologist compiling the list on the BMJ site). I'm saying that your implication that he lists just "yellow pages and train timetables" is deliberately misleading. You may not remove the reference to the BMJ. -- thickslab 17:55, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

== "Circumcision is one of those subjects that crops up repeatedly in online medical discussion forums. For useful online information on the subject visit the circumcision information resource on http://www.cirp.org/CIRP/." == [3]

Now perhaps we can agree that the British Medical Journal says that CIRP contains "useful online information" on circumcision.

Now perhaps Robert can have the elementary good manners to quit his offensive remarks. Michael Glass

Perhaps you will have the good manners not to shout. Now go see who wrote this. A Mark Pallen who if you look seems to like to produce online lists of websites. Essentially your desperate claims to respectability by association are appalling. It just happened to appear in a column by a Mark Pallen and certainly is only the opinion of Mark Pallen. I will amend the article accordingly. - Robert Brookes 16:23, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

At last, a form of wording that approaches neutrality. Maybe the shouting worked. You said:

CIRP is an anti-circumcision site. CIRP was listed in the British Medical Journal by Mark Pallen (professor of Microbiology at Birmingham University)as a useful source of information about circumcision. This does not consitute an endorsement of CIRP by the BMJ.

I think the beginning should be changed to "CIRP is opposed to circumcision. It was listed...etc" This would be more neutral. I also think the final sentence should be checked with the British Medical Journal before we put any further claim about the status of the listing.

What do others think?Michael Glass 07:19, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Personally either beginning is fine by me. Also agree that contacting the BMJ is sensible. I do think we only need the one discliamer though. Putting it twice is overkill. Theresa Knott (Nate the Stork) 08:31, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Phimosis - a 'disorder'?

This is a matter of opinion, it assumes that the foreskin "needs" to be retracted. Although this may be a problem if it causes problems with the function of the penis, perfectly healthy people are often "diagnosed" with this problem and even told that they have to have a circumcision to "correct" the problem. It seems that the medical profession is obsessed with telling people how their bodies "should" work, they somehow develop an idea about how the somthing should work and then think that someone who doesn't fit into this "ideal" is somehow abnormal.

Unsigned comments make it hard for any semblance of a dialog to be maintained. 金 (Kim)

I had a friend whose foreskin would not retract. When he got an erection he suffered. Somewhat the same thing happens if you sprain your ankle and have to get your foot into a shoe that originally fit snuggly. As far as I know, doctors don't go around asking their patients, "Would you like a circumcision today?" And another thing, if the foreskin is too tight and the glans manages to slip through, then the foreskin acts like a big thick rubber band right around the penis below the glans -- like a tourniquet. 金 (Kim) 02:50, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Penile cancer reference

In developing countries where infant circumcision is not routinely practised and genital hygiene is poor, penile cancer may comprise 10 to 20% of all malignancies, although it is rare in Western countries

This statement seems fairly meaningless unless it is put into some kind of context. It doesn't tell us the percentage of penile cancer among the whole population but only the percentage of malginancies that are cancerous. What percentage of people have malignancies in the first place?, and what is the exact definition of "malignancy" in this context? If only a tiny percentage of people had a malignancy then the cancer would comprise an even tinier proportion of that percentage, if the initial malignancy rate was high then the overall percentage of people with the disease would be much higher. --Cap 00:10, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm confused. Does malignancy always refer to cancer? perhaps it means 10-20percent of all cancers of any kind rather than 10-20% of diseases affecting the penis? either way we still need to know the percentage of the overall malignancy rate for the 10-20% figure to have any meaning. --Cap 00:19, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes I think it does.So the text means thT 10-20% of all cancers are penile in those areas. Theresa Knott (taketh no rest) 15:42, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"It is an uncontestable fact at this point that there are more deaths [in th US] from complications of circumcision than from cancer of the penis."

More dubious stuff

It was stated: "Unlike the skin on the rest of the body, which is attached to the underlying tissue, the foreskin and shaft skin are free to glide along the shaft of the penis, reducing friction, abrasion and loss of lubricating fluid during sexual intercourse or masturbation."

This statement is pure speculation and sadly indicates a lack of knowledge (and probably experience) of the heterosexual sex act. Natural vaginal lubrication is more than adequate for the purpose of sexual intercourse and the natural variations in penis size, shape and length (not to mention the variations in foreskins) and those of the vagina make this anti-circumcision statement totally ridiculous. It should be ammended to reflect reality or removed as Wikipedia is no place for such fantasy material to be posted. - Friends of Robert 15:10, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please see [4] and respond to it.

Acegikmo1 19:00, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, that another survey of people recruited through an "announcement in an anti-circumcision new"sletter" like in the case of the O'Hara survey? The names and cites mentioned there read like a who's who of the anti-circumcision brigade. And you expect this to be taken seriously? Try this. [5]

Where do you get the idea that the people were recriuted from an "annouoncement in an anti-circumcision newsletter"? After examining the resutls of the O'Hara study, the authors of this piece in the New Zealand Medical Journal conducted an independent study themselves. Just because it supported O'Hara's findings doesn't mean you can simply dismiss it.

Acegikmo1 04:14, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why are you so desperate to believe the anti-circumcision propaganda? The authors of "this piece" are well known raving foreskin promoters. How they managed to get it published in the New Zealand Medical Journal would make interesting reading. O'Hara's survey was the one where they recruited people through an "announcement in an anti-circumcision newsletter" and we all know that Bigelow has made a lot of money out of foreskin restoration. This survey meets no standard of science. - Friends of Robert 07:05, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's quite a double standard to to dismiss this reference because some of the cites are "anti-circumcision" and then accept a study posted on a Yahoo! Group right next to the 1981 Prepuce Restoration Seekers study which has been almost universally dismissed because of its small sample size (8 men) and outdaded prejudice against homosexuals.

Acegikmo1 04:14, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please don't try the double standard line on me, look in the mirror. That yahoo site was set up to host information not found elsewhere on the web other than in biased sites like CIRP. "Universally dismissed" by the anti-circumcision fraternity you should rather say. This is a good example of your (anti-circumcision types) propensity to exaggerate horribly. You should really try to reign in such urges as the rise. - Friends of Robert 07:05, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But more importantly, the study you linked to doesn't even relate to the issue at hand. The study seems to be from the 80s, while the NZMJ study is from 2003. The study you linked to did not relate to "friction, abrasion and loss of lubricating fluid during sexual intercourse". The NZMJ study did. In fact, the word "lubrication" is not mentioned once in the text of the study you linked to. Please either make a case that the statement in the article is not factual or remove the disputed tag.

Acegikmo1 04:14, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The lubrication angle is another pure anti-circumcision lie. Anyone who is sexually active (heterosexually) thesedays will know that. Why? Because condom use does not allow for that stinky stuff (smegma) to mix in with the females juices. If this really was a problem then don't you think that condoms would come with more lube? Do you hear much moaning about the dryness of sex when a condom is used (even in non-circumcising countries)? Vaginal sex is different to anal sex you need to understand. You need to read up on vaginal dryness issues on womens web sites and not on anti-circumcision web sites. So drop this nonsense will you. - Friends of Robert 07:05, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Foreskin and evolution

This message was originally left on User talk:Friends of Robert. I have duplicated it here after adding a disputed statement tag. Acegikmo1 18:07, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hello,

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask you to provide evidence that evolutionary processes are causing the human foreskin to shrink.

You wrote, "The coverage of the glans by the foreskin in adults is a highly variable characteristic and is seen by some to be reducing".

That the foreskin has a variable length in humans is factual.

That the average foreskin length is decresing is not.

As an analogy, the size human eyebrows is variable. Some people have large eyebrows; some people have small eyebrows.

This does not mean, however, that the average eybrow size is reducing, any more than it means that the average eyebrow size is increasing.

Similarly, the variable length of the foreskin is not evidence that the foreskin is decreasing in size due to evolutionary processes any more than it means the foreskin is increasing in size.

Consider the following alteration of the text you inserted:

"The coverage of the glans by the foreskin in adults is a highly variable characteristic and is seen by some to be increasing in accordance with the theory that as the foreskin has become essential the evolutionary process of growth has begun."

Such an claim is equally baseless and I'm sure you would agree that it does not belong in an encyclopedia.

You have made it clear that you are interested in removing anti-circumcision speculation. I don't think that the best way to do that is to insert pro-circumcision speculation.

If there are specific parts of the foreskin article that you believe need to be edited heavily to remove speculation, please let me know (preferibly on the talk:foreskin page). I believe that the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy works both ways, and thus I will work with you to remove any baseless anti-circumcision claims as well.

Sincerely,

Acegikmo1 18:02, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is noted that you have picked up on this one and seem totally unconcerned by the dubious stuff under the "Cultural views" heading. Why is that? Where is the substantiation for those claims? Are you just exposing your bias once again? If you were truly committed to rooting out "baseless" content from this encyclopedia would you not also be equally keen to remove that unsubstantiated garbage? - Friends of Robert 02:12, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No one has provided a reliable source to support the following sentence.

Some advocates of circumcision propose that the foreskin is a vestigial organ and is decreasing in size as part of evolutionary processes.

Who proposes the foreskin is a vestigial organ? Who claims the foreskin is deceasing as part of the evolutionary process? Unless someone can provide a reliable source to support these claims, the above sentence should not be in the article. -- DanBlackham 06:13, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I suggest that you carefully consider the implecation of "raising the bar" in this manner. Half the foreskin friendly stuff if measured against that criterion would have to go on that basis. - Friends of Robert 17:53, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I will ask again. Who proposes the foreskin is a vestigial organ and who claims the foreskin is deceasing as part of the evolutionary process? Unless you or someone else can provide a reliable source to support these two claims, they should not be in the article. -- DanBlackham 06:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What Winkelman said

Quote from article: "The tip of the foreskin is the site of the mucocutaneous boundary, which Winklemann identified as a specific erogenous zone.[6]"
Can't find where Winkelman said this. It should be deleted. - Friends of Robert 01:03, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Quoting from Winkelmann's paper:

"The specific type of erogenous zone found is found in the mucocutaneous regions of the body."
"The mucocutaneous end-organs extend from the distal margin of the prepuce"

By (2) the end of the prepuce is a mucocutaneous region. By (1) the mucocutaneous regions of the body are specific erogenous zones. Therefore, the end of the foreskin is a specific erogenous zone.

The statement above seems to be a factual presentation of Winkelmann's findings. I don't see how it's not in accord with Winkelmann's writings, but I could be missing something. What part specifically do you dispute?

Acegikmo1 03:38, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Williamson & Williamson survey

The following sentence is Robert's interpretation of the Williamson & Williamson survey.

This would indicate that in this sample of a modern society the exposed glans is seen as "sexier" rather than obscene by the majority.

Because the sentence is Robert's personal interpretation of the survey it belongs on the Talk page, not in the article itself. -- DanBlackham 05:54, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But Taylor's speculation is good for any article? LOL - Friends of Robert 18:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion it is significant that the majority (78%) of the women who participated in the Williamson & Williamson survey had no sexual experience with uncircumcised men. That fact needs to be included in the article. -- DanBlackham 07:03, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vestigal organ

Robert's original wording [7] was "The coverage of the glans by the foreskin in adults is a highly variable characteristic and seems to be reducing in accordance with the theory that as the foreskin has become redundant the evolutionary process of removal has begun."

In this edit I changed it to "Some advocates of circumcision propose that the foreskin is a vestigial organ and is decreasing in size as part of evolutionary processes."

The sentence was later modified but I have restored the form it had when I added it. However, I think it could use some elaboration. Robert, could you propose a better wording or perhaps some further explanation? Where did you originally hear this? Are there any circumcision-related groups or forums that hold this position?

Thanks, Acegikmo1 03:10, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think it is sufficient for you to help Theresa get up to speed on this and other issues. Maybe you can offer to help her work through these and other issues she appears to have. That would be caring of you. No, I'm not interested in arguing the detail on this other to ensure that it is recorded that since biblical times the foreskin has reduced from a predominance of "ant eaters" to 50% having full glans coverage today. It is obviously due to evolution, what elese? I am more interested that you insist on including the rider "Some advocates of circumcision". I assume that applies to every view which is not openly anti-circumcision? Good! Then I assume I can count on your support for my wholesale insertion of like wording qualifying what anti-circumcision zealots think/say/believe/assert? Can I count on your evenhandedness in this regard or will you find find it impossible to betray the cause of foreskin promotion? - Robert the Bruce 03:25, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for responding Robert. I would like to get rid of the "Some advocates of circumcision" part of the sentence. That phrase was agreed to in a re-wording after some discussion at User talk:Friends of Robert, but if the belief extends beyond ciricumcision advocates, then I agree that we should remove it.

You stated, "it is recorded that since biblical times the foreskin has reduced from a predominance of "ant eaters" to 50% having full glans coverage today. It is obviously due to evolution, what elese?". I know of no scientific evidence that the average foreskin length was longer in Biblical times. This may be true; I've just never read/heared anything about it. Could you provide a reference?

You can count on my even-handedness regarding qualifying the unsubstantiated statements of anti-circumcision zealots. I think this is clear from what I wrote at Talk:Foreskin_restoration#Disputed_sections.

Acegikmo1 03:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am thrilled that we are getting down to requiing substantiation. Let me confirm this then ... if it can't be substantiated then it gets "left out" ... is that how it is supposed to be? We are going to be busy for the next few days and yes the articles are really going to get cleaned up. Can't wait. Please confirm you are setting a high standard for substantiation. - Robert the Bruce 06:29, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yes Robert, I think we need a high standard for substantiation of statments in articles. If you remember, I suggested that some changed be made to the foreskin restoration article. There were some statements in that article that were not backed up by scientific evidence. I suggested on the talk page that we make it clear that these statements were made by foreskin restorers, but had not been confirmed by scientific evidence. For example, I wrote, "Saying that some men report improved sensitivity after foreskin restoration is accurate. However, since no studies have demonstrated this, we must be careful not to assert it as fact." So yes, Robert, I support the "insertion of like wording qualifying what anti-circumcision zealots think/say/believe/assert". Acegikmo1 07:18, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Robert has been asked repeatedly to provide a credible source to support his contention that "the foreskin is a vestigial organ and is decreasing in size as part of evolutionary processes." In my opinion the statement nothing more than pro-circumcision nonsense that would be more at home at alt.circumcision on Usenet than Wikipedia. To date Robert has not provided a credible reference to support his claim. Until he does the sentence should not be included in the article. -- DanBlackham 04:01, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Coming from an anti-circumcision activist that is rich. I am left wondering why you set standards for others that you are unable to maintain yourself? I fear your contributions are becoming seen as POV pushing and as the articles move towards NPOV your shrill protestations expose an emotional instability which has hitherto not been noticed. Are you a foreskin restorer? - Robert the Bruce 06:25, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Robert Brookes, friends of robert, and robert the bruce are all one and the same person. He always argues like this when his own speculation is challenged. I will not compromise with POV pushers. The statement saying the forskin has got shorter since biblical times should be very easy to deal with. It is either true or Robert made it up. If it's true Robert can provide a credible source. If robert made it up I am going to delete it altogether. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 09:54, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wonderful Theresa! Let this be known from this day onwards as Theresa's law. I like it. Produce a credible source or it gets deleted. Now I guess the test will be when your buddies begin to squeal. What will happen then? Will you suddenly widen your basis of what consititues "a credible source"? I can't wait. - Robert the Bruce 10:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They are not my buddies, as for 'credible' well the first step is clearly providing a source at all. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 10:54, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not your buddies? You could have fooled me, but the way you have been protecting the Wally is a bit of a give away I'm afraid. As to "credible". Yes I thought you spoke too soon. Care to define "credible", so we can all know what to expect from you somewhere down the line? I am sure this is where you suddenly develop a headache or are suddenly need elsewhere? - Robert the Bruce 11:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The definition of credible is naturally a difficult one. Certainly not providing a reference at all is clearly not providing a credible one. I think we can all agree that any reference is more credible than none. Generally an article in a peer reviewed jounal can be considered credible. A published book by an expert in the field, an article in a respected newspaper (not a tabloid) would probably be considered credible. A well respected TV program such as the BBC'c Horizon for example is also usually considered credible. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 12:59, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good. We now have the makings of what we shall term "Theresa's Law". But somehow I don't have a good warm and fuzzy feeling that you will be consistent in what you consider to be credible. - Robert the Bruce 03:58, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What 'you term as my law. There's no we about it. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 07:58, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Theresa, that was the "royal" we. But I do dearly wish that you prove to be consistent on this issue. I appreciate it will be difficult but you need to see it as a test of your integrity. I'm holding thumbs for you. - Robert the Bruce 17:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recent reverts 1

I'm curious about the recent reversion by Jakew. Thickslab's edits seemed fine to me. Exploding Boy 20:01, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Problem 1: A subjective an unsubstantiated claim about sensitivity (the very fact that claims regarding the number of nerve endings vary so wildly indicates that nobody actually has the slightest idea). Problem 2: Lengthy diversion in 'cultural views', distracting from the main theme - perhaps this could be summarised instead? Problem 3: Inclusion of a non-scientific study (O'Hara's) that polled anti-circumcision activists. This is a little like quizzing employees of the Vatican and concluding that everyone on the planet is Christian: in a word, tripe. - Jakew 20:42, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It was not a "diversion," since it was there before you showed up to edit the page. - thickslab 21:01, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have expressed myself better. It was not a diversion chronologically, but a diversion from the subject. Sorry for the ambiguity. - Jakew 21:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've changed some of the wording, added links documenting some of the claims, removed the links to the two studies (both of which I think can reasonably be considered questionable) and removed the nerve ending claims. - thickslab 12:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted your deletion. Those paragraphs are clearly relevant to "cultural views" of the foreskin. They are not irrelevant. Please do not delete them again. - thickslab 12:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Personally, Thickslab's versions look fine to me. However, both Thickslab and Jakew have been reverting a lot on this page; both of you seem to be fast approaching the 3 reverts maximum if you've not already exceeded it. I suggest you hash out your disputes on this page rather than in an edit war. Exploding Boy 16:22, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Jakew has never explained what exactly is wrong with the edits aside from "they're diversions" and they're "not concise." Those sentences are completely relevant to the heading they're under, and they're supported with links. Jakew needs to clearly state exactly what is wrong with those sentences and not just use vague words like "concise" and "diversions." If he can state exactly what is wrong with those paragraphs and how to fix it, I'll work towards that. But as it stands, his reversions are simply and plainly just vandalism by a pro-circumcision activist. -- thickslab 16:26, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Jakew and Robert have no interest except to trash this article. I am certainly open to including their POV, but not appreciative of their repeated and biased edits. Including and glorifying circumcision in this article makes about as much sense as repeating mastectomy over and over in the breast article. That extreme is about as far from encyclopedia definitions as one can get. DanP 18:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am completely willing to work with Jakew/Robert to work on this article. I am trying to show good faith by asking them to state their specific objections, and help me come up with wordig that we all can agree with. I await their response. -- thickslab 18:42, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Robert, what is not acceptable about the studies that Robert Blair linked to? What sources would be acceptable to you? -- thickslab 03:06, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Robert, there are many veterinary sources which indicate protection offered by foreskin, and in no way is glans injury presented as the only environmental threat. This article is not limited to humans, and anything about excision of the foreskin should be part of the cultural or human-specific section. I think that is fair and NPOV, unless the information is not so specialized. DanP 18:38, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Stating this as fact "[that circumcision is a] vicious and invasive procedure inflicted upon infants in the US." is an obvious and gross violation of NPOV. Saying that is "NPOVing" is misleading in the least. --mav 18:45, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Welcome to the circumcision debate. You may not be aware but there has been a "call to arms" among anti-circumcision zealots to ensure their POV is maintained in the circumcision related articles on wikipedia. As such you will notice a flurry of such activity now and in the future especually from a number of anonymous users. Most of these people are true believers so I suggest you learn to live with their activities, they will be around for a while. - Robert the Bruce 01:45, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My apologies. I did not leave that in deliberately. I'll try to be more careful. DanP 18:51, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the foresight into what you really believe Dan. It helps to understand exactly where you are coming from. - Robert the Bruce 01:46, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Recent reverts 2

Robert the Bruce: Exactly how is it non-NPOV to describe the foreskin as innervated (ie: as containing nerves)? Please explain your repeated reverts of this description. Exploding Boy 16:33, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

Censoring the fact that a male's foreskin has a high concentration of specialized nerves is a way to influence the ethical debate over circumcision of children. When people learn that a male's foreskin has a high concentration of specialized nerves many of them start to question the ethics and morality of circumcising children, especially when they learn there is no medical indication of neonatal circumcision. -- DanBlackham 05:27, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

These nerve endings are specialised for what purpose? - Robert the Bruce 16:25, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Does it make a difference? I could understand editing the sentence if it claimed, without trustworthy references, that "these nerves are specialized for sexual pleasure," but the fact is that the foreskin does contain nerves, that they are removed with circumcision, and that they do not grow back with foreskin restoration. So what's your rationale? Exploding Boy 16:40, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Of course it matters. It is the innuendo of a sexual function of these "specialised" nerves that some seek to insert in the sentence. The fact that this "skin" is enervated is a no brainer. - Robert the Bruce 03:39, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The foreskin is extremely sensitive. It is filled with nerve endings called stretch receptors that fire when they are stretched, rolled, or massaged." anti-circumcision site
"microscopic examination reveals that the foreskin is more than just penile skin necessary for a natural erection; it is specialized tissue [especially the "ridged bands" described in research by Taylor], richly supplied with blood vessels, highly innervated, and uniquely endowed with stretch receptors. These attributes of the foreskin contribute significantly to the sexual response of the intact male. The complex tissue of the foreskin responds to stimulation during sexual activity. Stretching of the foreskin over the glans penis activates preputial nerve endings, enhances sexual excitability, and contributes to the male ejaculatory reflex." anti-circumcision site
"Skin and mucosa sufficient to cover the penile shaft was frequently missing from the circumcised penis. Missing tissue included a band of ridged mucosa located at the junction of true penile skin with smooth preputial mucosa. This ridged band contains more Meissner's corpuscles than does the smooth mucosa and exhibits features of specialized sensory mucosa . . . The prepuce provides a large and important platform for several nerves and nerve endings. The innervation of the outer skin of the prepuce is impressive [16]; its sensitivity to light touch and pain are similar to that of the skin of the penis as a whole. The glans, by contrast, is insensitive to light touch, heat, cold [17] and, as far as the authors are aware, to pin-prick." published in BRITISH JOURNAL OF UROLOGY by J.R. Taylor, A.P. Lockwood and A.J. Taylor

There are literally hunderds of sources online, pro- and anti-circumcision as well as neutral that describe the nerves of the foreskin. Some claim that they are specialized for sexual pleasure, but even those that do not agree that the foreskin is very sensitive. It seems quite reasonable to add the information to the article. Purposely leaving it out is as non-neutral as you claim putting it in uncited is. Exploding Boy 16:58, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

Each and every one of the sources you cite is strongly anti-circumcision. The first two are not credible (since they are merely activist web sites). The third is more credible, since at least it was published in a peer-reviewed journal. However, there are no comparative studies to suggest that the foreskin is any more innervated than any other part. Wouldn't you think it a bit strange if in a hypothetical article on "the thumb" it said that "the thumb is an innervated digit..."? - Jakew 17:27, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nonsense. The first two are anti-circumcision and I clearly identified them as such. However, they cite credible medical evidence. The third is from a respected medical journal (and frankly, that should be quite enough). "Comparative studies" are really not needed. We don't need to show that the foreskin is "more innervated" than any other area, we only need to show that it contains nerves and that they are likely specialized. Please read my previous comments carefully before you respond. Exploding Boy 17:34, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

The first two are, as we both agree, anti-circumcision. Furthermore, they are unscientific activist sites. I don't object to citing credible evidence directly, but we shouldn't cite activist's interpretation of them. Obviously, the foreskin does contain nerves, but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they are specialised. Taylor merely found that part of the foreskin contained more Meissner's corpuscles than elsewhere (in the foreskin). What possible reason is there to believe that these are somehow different to any other Meissner's corpuscles? - Jakew 18:49, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good question! But do not for one moment think that it will stop the attempts to insert that innuendo into Wikipedia articles. It is very sad. - Robert the Bruce 07:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand why my Nov 30 edit was termed POV. There was already a statement about the American Academy of Pediatrics' stance, which provided only the US policy. I just added the Canadian Paediatric Society policy, which said that the benefits and harms are so evenly balanced that they don't make a recommendation. That seems pretty neutral to me. Otherwise, you just have a statement about cultures being for or against, without any citation. If there's going to be a statement about the reasons cultures are for or against, it should be supported by evidence. Otherwise, the entire statement about reasons and cultural differences should be moved to another article. --Westendgirl 08:22, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article is about the foreskin. Stuff for or against Circumcision should be in that article. - Robert the Bruce 01:18, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are many references to circumcision in the current version of the article. Unless all references to circumcision are deleted from the article, the quotes from professional medical organizations are appropriate and should be included. There has been a broad consensus in the medical community for several decades that neonatal circumcision is not medically necessary. That fact should be included in the article if a discussion of circumcision for cultural or religious reasons is included. In my opinion short quotes on circumcision from national medical organizations in the United States, Canada, and/or Australia are appropriate. -- DanBlackham 10:26, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Poor scholarship

I object to these POV claims of "inaccuracy", "poor scholarship", etc. Opinions may differ. Also, that issue is unrelated to whether or not an author is correct in a particular article, or whether a point is relevant or proof that the Wikipedia-reader needs slanted "guidance". Indeed, the doctors who advocate male mutilation make obvious writing mistakes too. That does not exclude their work from Wikipedia, nor does it merit one-sided 'Warning labels'. If this article is to tell both sides of opinions on circumcision, it should do so without slanting it or making one side carry stigma and the other go unscathed. Ideally, this article should have only a passing mention of circumcision, since the foreskin exists among much of the animal kingdom, and circumcision is hardly the only treatment among humans. Are thoughts on consensus-building here? DanP 15:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You may object all you like, but when one reference is cited in support of a statement, and that is disputed by another, any true scholar would at the very least mention the fact. Perhaps it's inappropriate to have circumcision-related links here? - Jakew 15:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. By why is that relevant to the foreskin article? Is every typo, omission, change of opinion, point-of-view, or conflicting statement in a linked article need to be highlighted in this article? Indeed, this would be a busy place if that's the standard. To answer your question, actually yes, I think so, but I disagree that the links are purely circumcision-related simply by association with those who oppose circumcision. I'm sure we disagree on that, but I do think there is too much emphasis on circumcision and the human foreskin, since more than only human males have them. Any thoughts? DanP 00:52, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The articles are related to circumcision, since they describe (accurately or not) what is removed. It's reasonable to assume that a person with anti-circumcision views would want to make the prepuce appear to be more valuable. Suggestions: 1) Let's try to replace the first link with a neutral link (can we find something like Gray's Anatomy online?). 2) Let's remove the second, and refer to it in the next with a parenthetical comment briefly noting that the authors' integrity has been questioned). 3) Let's replace the third article with Taylor's original paper, which is more descriptive, and less of a sales pitch than Cold and Taylor's paper. Your thoughts? -Jakew 14:29, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Forget for a moment that you'd never say "a person with pro-mutilation views would want to make the prepuce appear to be less valuable". Can we also include parenthetical comment's on which author's views have been applauded and consider accurate by various Wikipedia members? I just don't believe this is appropriate behavior, as we can provide diverse links and the reader can decide on their own without warning labels as stigma on either side. Why not leave the "warning labels" out and have three links: one "valuing" the human prepuce, one "degrading" it, and one on the foreskins of bulls? NPOV is supposed to include varied sides, and not advocate intermediate viewpoints either. DanP 18:12, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vet first (i.e., after the "preface") section

I changed a couple of assertions that imply cause and purpose. Saying something has a purpose implies to many people that there is purposive behavior involved. "The purpose of rain was to put out the forest fire," implies that God or perhaps somebody with the power to seed clouds caused a rain with the intent of putting out the forest fire. "The function of the rain..." just says that one thing happened for whatever reason and that it has a certain result. That's why I changed "The purpose of the foreskin..." to "The function of the foreskin..."

Manually retracting the foreskin, rather than letting the process occur naturally and gradually, does not in itself cause infection. The problem is that doing so creates a conditon in which infection becomes much more likely. In a sterile environment, cutting your skin will not result in an infection. Putting septic material into any break in the skin will give germs a way beyond the skin barrier, and the body will have to try to fight off infection. That's why I made the second change. BTW, asserting that manually retracting the foreskin causes infection is tantamount to asserting that circumcision (the most radical form of manually retracting the foreskin) causes infection, when all it does in this regard is to greatly increase the likelihood of infection. That's why antiseptic precautions should be taken when circumcision is performed. 金 (Kim) 19:07, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that your changes improve the article, Kim. We should still deal with the confusing (to the layperson) term "ammoniacal", though. Any ideas? - Jakew 19:20, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That part is easy. I'll do it in a while.

Done. 金 (Kim) 19:36, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just tried to fix the part on "meatal stenosis", thinking I could guess what it meant. When I checked the definition I discovered that "meatal stenosis" doesn't refer to any condition of the skin covered by the foreskin, but to what is colloquiallly called the "piss hole." I will have to try to track down the original source of the assertion to see whether it's "meatal stenosis" being used inappropriately, or whether there is an indirect line of causation wherein either irritation to the meatus causes a constriction of the urethra or wherein the foreskin actually is tightly enough adhered to the foreskin that urine can get out but then cannot get back in again (at least in any volume), so that the urethral opening is not assaulted by high ammonia concentrations due to contact with urine that has been in long-term contact with the open atmosphere. Maybe the person who made the original entry will fix it. I am supposed to be working right now. :-( 金 (Kim) 19:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I found this site: http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2356.htm It seems that the medical community knows that narrowing occurs, but isn't positive whether it's due to interference with blood flow or due to the exposed tip of the penis rubbing against wet diapers. 金 (Kim) 20:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Totally Disputed Tag

The "tag" has been at the head of this article for a long time now. Having read through the article a couple of times looking for things that might seem POV, I am left wondering why the tag is still up. What are the remaining issues in dispute? 金 (Kim) 04:19, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Conditions

I've removed "meatal stenosis" from the discussion, since it is not a condition of the foreskin. There is little consensus on whether retraction may cause meatitis/meatal stenosis. Indeed, there may not be a connection - it's often impossible to diagnose these conditions when the foreskin is present[8]. - Jakew 20:05, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that it's not relevant here. But please include it in the glans, penis, or some related article. Please don't just remove it without relocating it to an appropriate article. You also indicated "one study" with regard to the retraction stats, which, in other articles, you said was a term with connotations. DanP 23:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't object to it (meatal stenosis) being included in a more appropriate place. Wouldn't an article on the urinary meatus be the obvious place? I objected to "one study" previously because it implied that other studies had different findings (when in fact there were no other studies). In this case, there are quite a few studies, showing a variety of results. I've investigated this, and found that the figures cited were taken from CIRP's reinterpretation of Oster's data (it's actually wrong, so I've removed it altogether). - Jakew 00:00, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not going to play your game Jake. The dozen or so men said to be inspected by pro-mutilation researchers are stated in Wikipedia. No objection there. But strange that no basis of measurement is stated, and I can post research to the contrary, if you wish. But no doubt it would be deleted by you or Robert. Never mind that every mucosal surface in the human body seems to keritinize with age and exposure to air, we'll leave it in here that the glans penis is exempt from dryness, abrasions, etc. because of one inspection of a tiny subset of mankind. So on your principle, may I attach "one study" to any circumcision advocacy research (aka. so-called HIV receptors) which has counterparts on the genital integrity side? Is it uniqueness of the material, or uniqueness of the result that you are using to make this distinction as to whether "one study" has connotation? DanP 00:49, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Without a concrete example, it's a little hard to interpret your words, DanP. I'm assuming that you're talking about Szabo and Short's research into keratinisation. If you have details of a histological study (as opposed to mere opinion pieces) which found a difference, I'd be very interested. The same goes for HIV receptors. In answer to your question, I would suggest that if a) more than one study has investigated an issue, and b) there have been different results, then it is reasonable when describing one of them to say "one study". - Jakew 12:18, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The reasoning given above seems foggy to me. If we were going to have an article on flak jackets we would want to include not only their components, their tailoring, whether they are zippered or closed by buttons, but also (and I suspect primarily) readers would want to know what function a flak jacket is supposed to preform and what kinds of things can impair its function. In an earlier form of this article the meaning of the term wasn't even explained. Parents contemplating having their infant males circumcised should have access to the information that meatal stenosis appears to be more likely in the cases of circumcised children. Since it is an easily treatable condition, and since it doesn't always occur in circumcised boys, all the information would suggest to parents is that if they do decide to have their boy circumcised they should keep an eye out for the condition. And it wouldn't hurt the parents of non-circumcised baby boys to know that sometimes children can have this problem so it would not be a good idea to simply ignore mild problems with urination. 金 (Kim)

If I recall correctly, the HIV connection occurs because as part of its protective function the inner surface of the foreskin is an innerface for certain phage cells. These cells emerge, clean up organic matter that doesn't belong in the space between the penis and the foreskin, and then go back within the body. Ordinarily that is a good thing because these phages can snack on pathogens, thus preventing infection. Unfortunately, in the case of HIV these cells become the prey, and they return as Trojan horses to the inside of the body. (This information was published in Science News during the summer of 1990 if I remember correctly.) Just the fact that the skin of the foreskin is permeable in this way is worth including in this article. 金 (Kim) 01:09, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning on the specifics. But circumcision, phage cells, etc. are slightly off-topic of a simple organ description. This issues might be better addressed in their respective articles. As to permeability of the foreskin, the circumcision advocates would hardly say similar things about other permeable membranes. And including such information, say in the anus article, and commenting how risky it is for men to have anuses (or anal sex) right in the anus article would hardly have merit. So that is my only concern here, and maybe there is an easy compromise? DanP 00:02, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Link description

Robert the Blair: please explain how www.foreskin.org constitutes a "foreskin fetish" site. Exploding Boy 18:10, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

That is self evident. Check it out yourself. - Robert the Bruce 18:30, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have checked it obviously, that's why I ask. How exactly does this qualify as a "foreskin fetish" site? Please be specific. Exploding Boy 21:31, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) Quite frankly, this article has become ridiculous. It's a mess of non-neutrality and factual dubiousness supported by questionable sources which, if they are as they're labeled, shouldn't have any part in a Wikipedia article. Exploding Boy 21:34, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

I have removed some portions attributed to O'Hara (she never claimed the glans was the male clitoris - that was some other author). The survey info is entirely irrelavant (O'Hara and otherwise) since this encyclopedia article refers to the male anatomy, not some trivia game about women's minds. When there are survey's on "men's breast preferences" in the breast article, then fine. But until then keep it scientific please. DanP 01:02, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) Dan, what part of the following email don't you understand:

From:  Kristen O'Hara
Date:  Sun Sep 28, 2003  9:50 am 
Instead, more accurately, the supreme
erotic tissue of the penis is located
interiorly beneath the glans. It is
commonly identified in medical textbooks as
tip of the corpora cavernosa; however, it's true
scientific name is the Lowndes Crown--or tip
of the male clitoris.

All this was in the link provided in the article. - Jakew 21:43, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have added a reference to support the O'Hara citation, and yes she quoted Josephine Lowdnes. (p.131)

Robert Blair 13:29, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is insane. None of my concerns (above) have been dealt with, the edit history is a sea of reverts, and yet most of the people who work on this article seem completely unwilling to conform to Widipedia's standards. The worst offenders, from what I can see, are Robert the Bruce/Robert Blair, and Jakew, but DanP, though he shows a willingness to compromise sometimes, can be just as bad; almost no one else dares to edit this article any more. The edit warring and non-neutrality on this page has become ridiculous and out of control. I'm going to recommend something be done about it, whether it's locking the article, preventing current users from editing it, or completely removing the article from Wikipedia -- probably the best option given how utterly useless this article is from the point of view of academic rigor and usefulness. What's worse, ALL the articles the above editors fight on regularly are in similarly bad shape. Please do something about it immediately.

In my view, the only option is to immediately remove all questionable material from the article and stick to a simple description of the foreskin. All additional information will have to be thoroughly discussed on the talk page and respectable academic references given before a draft is agreed on and the text added to the article. Exploding Boy 21:23, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

This is bizarre! You yourself are hardly neutral so what are you up to here? You therefore are in no position to decide what is "questionable material". Is this a new angle you are proposing to try and force your POV into this and other articles? - Robert the Bruce 04:22, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

STOP adding offensive and inflammatory subheadings to talk pages. Exploding Boy 17:45, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Protection

Robert the Bruce and Robert Blair seem to be at an edit war on this article. Therefore, the article shall be protected to cool down the edit war. Should anyone wish to request for its unprotection, please visit Wikipedia:Requests for page protection -- AllyUnion (talk) 07:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you don't like edit wars, why not petition to Jimbo Wales for a sympathetic point of view? I have no problems with the current policy myself, but I don't like dealing with the edit wars and all that. Scott Gall 18:46, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Insanity

The section on surgery to the foreskin is insane. It's a confusing mass of links to studies which contradict each other. The whole thing is really seems unnecessary to me - this article is about foreskin, not a circumcision debate. I propose removing all the arguments about circumcision with the following:

In addition to its use as a treatment for phimosis, circumcision, among other procedures, is also practiced for religious, aesthetic, health, or hygiene reasons. For more information on circumcision, see Circumcision.

Preputioplasty is an alternative surgical treatment for non-retractile foreskin[22] [23]. Non-surgical treatments also exist for this condition, with varying degrees of success.

Circumcision vs. foreskin

Keeping in mind that this page is specifically about the foreskin, meaning the human body part, and not a debate about circumcision, I've taken the liberty of removing the statistics and studies about circumcision and whittled the whole article down to what is directly relevant.

Debates over the effectiveness of circumcision should be contained on the circumcision Wiki page, end of story. --RyanSEanes 04:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is a good idea. I also removed all the cultural stuff about male circumcision, as it's pretty much unrelated to an article on anatomy. DanP 04:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Aposthia

Jakew, you claimed in an edit summary that aposthia is less common then phimosis. How common is this deformity? Sirkumsize 01:20, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Aposthia is a birth defect. "Congenital disorder" is the most neutral POV term for the article. Trying to hide the fact that aposthia is a congenital disorder is pushing a POV. -- DanBlackham 08:07, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you imagine that "disorder" was a neutral POV term? I've yet to see a definition from a medical or scientific source that uses the term, e.g. "Congenital absence of the prepuce." [9] "congenital absence of the prepuce." [10] etc. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:16, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can find no credible source that describes it as a defect or disorder. Some anti-circumcision websites use the former term, but they are obviously POV sources. - Jakew 10:57, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Since sources do describe it as congenital, but not as a congenital disorder, I have removed the wiki link. - Jakew 11:16, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Is the "congenital absence" of any other part of the human body not recognized immediately as a birth defect? Why the special exception for the "congenital absence" of the foreskin? -- DanBlackham 16:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Because as far as I can tell, only anti-circ websites describe aposthia as a birth defect. - Jakew 17:50, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can tell only people with a strong pro-circumcision POV suggest that the congenital absence of a boy's prepuce is not a birth defect. If a girl has a congenital absence of her labia minor, there is no debate, everyone recognizes it as a birth defect. If a girl has a congenital absence of the prepuce of her clitoris, there is no debate, everyone recognized it is a birth defect. But if a boy has a congenital absence of his foreskin, people with a pro-circumcision POV want us to pretend the congenital absence of a normal body part is not a birth defect. -- DanBlackham 22:47, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Jakew should use some real factors in deciding whether or not a website is pro-circumcision POV besides whether or not it calls aposthia a birth defect or not. Sirkumsize 18:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]