Talk:Karl Rove

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

"Rove, Bush's top strategist, to speak here on Thursday". Helenair.com Independent Record. March 30, 2005.

Previous Archives: Archive #1 (through around July 15, 2005).
Previous Archive: Archive #2 (through around July 21, 2005).
Current Archive: Archive #3 (through around Aug 16, 2005).

Previous discussion moved to archive Post a new comment

Resume editing and restoring NPOV, with some focus to the topics in the sections below.

I beat you all to it:

OMG you protected The Wrong Version! Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

...please work out content disputes here on the talk page. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

clean slate

Good call, Hip. Obviously there are still valid discussions going on, so lets just reiterate some of our concerns here while trying to be civil. A note to BigDaddy, before you continue to "quote" Jimbo Wales, keep in mind the Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Wikipedia explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Wikipedia. --kizzle 21:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if I could request that people who want to discuss certain passages here use this as a template, you don't have to but it makes things a helluva lot easier when this page gets cluttered up:

Also to BD: There is no such thing as a supervisor here. There are mediators and RFC's, but no supervisors. "Quotes" by Jimbo Wales are not necessarily policy, for official policies look at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Derex 21:23, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first thing is to remove those who INSIST on making personal attacks after being warned. Paul Klenk WARNED Ryan that calling my reasoned changes 'vandalism' was a personal attack, yet Ryan has done so since that warning two more times. He has also BLAMED ME PERSONALLY for this article being blocked from editing which is not only a personal attack, is ridiculous since I didn't do this and was still trying to edit some pieces that were in violation of Wik's nPOV policy. Bottom Line: We can't work on this cooperatively when obvious violations of this rule no personal attacks are tolerated.

Secondly, we need to find out what Jimmy Wales meant when he said the articles should be supported with IMPARTIAL sources or if he really said that at all. This is a key issue for getting to the heart of what is and is not acceptable. In addition, I propose that every section that slams Karl Rove be balanced by some praiseworthy note of accomplishment. I can provide just as many positive facts as can his detractors provide negative, as they've so ably demonstrated their ability to do and fight anyone who dares question their particualar credulity.Big Daddy 21:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Wikipedia explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Wikipedia.--kizzle 21:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Impartiality

I'm shocked and somewhat disturbed by all the advocates of what I can only characterize as 'sliming.'

Either Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia meant what he said when he was quoted as saying the articles must be backed by IMPARTIAL sources, or he was misquoted (and the burden is on those claiming that as no retraction has been made by CNN) or he is a liar trying to deceive the public that Wikipedia is something that it's not and that all you editors chiding me for bringing this up know it is not.

I think we would be better served by finding out, if Jimmy Wales said this and why so many in here disregard his admonition.

Ps My personal feelings is that you cannot use partial sources and most people know that. For example if someone insisted, on using The Elders of Zion to trash Jews, they would be banned as they should be. But, when it serves the POV of certain editors, I believe they will conveniently defend the use of partial sources to trash people they don't like. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so... Big Daddy 21:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Push Poll

Passage:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". [1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6] Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the [Bush] campaign." No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced.

Discussion:

There's no reason not to include the quotes - first whoever said they had no idea, and then the person who said it came from on high, and whatever other quotes we can dredge up. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

BigDaddy keeps introducing the quote about the campaign managers not knowing specifically who made the calls as if its mutually exclusive to them believing Rove was ultimately behind the idea. I don't believe such a point is worthwhile to include, as it does no such thing and thus is tertiary. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but he was given the opportunity, in a grand forum, to report SPECIFICALLY on what he believed about this incident and SPECIFICALLY said 'he doesn't know.' I'm sorry but that's as definitive as it gets, unless you simply want to put words in someone's mouth.Big Daddy 21:42, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

At the same time, there are just way too many sources about the push poll. Pick the best one. The initial insertion was a bit WP:POINT. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Amen, I believe the Boston Globe is the most reliable out of the bunch. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what I propose:

First choice: DELETION.

Second choice: Until I can be backed up on my first choice:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". [7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12] Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie) that many critics say was created 'to make Rove look bad'allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the [Bush] campaign." In an editorial published in the Boston Globe, McCain's campaign manager said "Insert the quote here where he said he didn't know who where or for how long."