Talk:Truth

Ratzinger again!!

Here is what he says about knowledge & truth at http://www.zenit.org/article-16955?l=english Regensburg Address. There is no mention of terrorism or ecological disaster here. IF it is in some other text, please specify --JimWae (talk) 06:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

This gives rise to two principles which are crucial for the issue we have raised. First, only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific. Anything that would claim to be science must be measured against this criterion. Hence the human sciences, such as history, psychology, sociology and philosophy, attempt to conform themselves to this canon of scientificity. A second point, which is important for our reflections, is that by its very nature this method excludes the question of God, making it appear an unscientific or pre-scientific question. Consequently, we are faced with a reduction of the radius of science and reason, one which needs to be questioned.

... the questions raised by religion and ethics, then have no place within the purview of collective reason as defined by "science", so understood, and must thus be relegated to the realm of the subjective. The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective "conscience" becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter.

... This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it.

The online citations do NOT support the "explanation" presented in the article.

1. Please provide citation that shows HOW he links uncertainty to religious absolutism & terrorism. I have not heard of religious terrorists who are uncertain about their values. So far, I have found this "connection" discussed only on blog sites
2. Online citations do not mention ecological disasters NOR destruction of humans
3. Online sources talks of pathologies of REASON not of science. Online sources do not *allude to* science as demonstrating that knowledge of God is possible. Science is NOT held up as in any way opposing this limitation
4. dishonor" does not appear in online source, nor does "acclaim". "Contradict" appears, but not in this context.

This appears to be a serious misreading of the source

I have commented out the following. It MIGHT not be off-topic if it were in the Tolerance article (his main purpose in his writing is to reconclie tolerance with holding firmly to dogma/doctrine)

For Ratzinger, truth and love are identical. And if well understood, according to him, this is "the surest guarantee of tolerance."

--JimWae (talk) 07:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jim, Please take note of my post of May 6 above which I am re-posting here: As regards the issue raised by Jim on how self-limitation of reason leads to pathologies of religion and science: First, before directly replying to this, let me repeat what I have said twice before: Wikipedia is interested in verifiability more than truth. I can assure you that I read this part in Truth and Tolerance and therefore this is verifiable and thus I would highly recommend that you read the book. :) As to the logic behind Ratzinger's ideas, I would say this: the self-limitation of reason is a sort of prohibition for the human intelligence to delve into the rational basis for ethics and discussion on religious issues. This leads therefore to irrational pursuit of what religious scriptures might say to the believer, as what happens to terrorists or to a moslem prohibiting Christians to have churches in moslem lands, thus infringing on rational idea of respecting the basic human right of exercising one's religious beliefs. It can also lead to lack of rational reasoning on ethical issues surrounding the use of science (eg what the Soviet Union did in Chernobyl) because ethics is not in the realm of empirical sciences. I also hope this helps to settle this issue. Marax (talk) 09:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I will re-read Truth and Tolerance and if my time permits I will post here some of the relevant statements. I believe there is another source but I still have to locate it. Marax (talk) 06:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jim, I have once more reverted your edits on this topic, as per the discussion here and the discussion in the previous section on ratzinger and the issue on section consistency. Pius IX and Vatican I are all pre-ratzinger and thus following the historical treatment of these views and the separation of ideas, these ideas should be treated elsewhere.

As a compromise I have removed the point regarding terrorism, since this appears in another text and not in Truth and Tolerance. Also I have re-read the book Truth and Tolerance and all the points that are presently in this article are clearly there. I have brought back the point on love and tolerance because he equates truth with love and as an ineluctible and inseparable consequence, he equates truth with tolerance, or said in another way truth can be defined as tolerance. A surprising and modern idea which would be highly interesting for Wikipedia readers. :) Marax (talk) 00:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

• I will not soon be reading the entire book to see if your interpretation is correct. The appropriate procedure is for you to provide direct quotes supporting your interpretation. Preceding that, your reversions are premature, and removal of other material is hostile. Little if anything R says is original & it is misleading to have the article appear to say otherwise --JimWae (talk) 03:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this opportunity Jim. :) I apologize again for reverting your work, but I can assure you there is no hostility on my part, but only an assurance that my contributions are verifiable. I believe that it would truly be a sad day for Wikipedia if only those the resources online can be deemed verifiable and would be the sole basis for decision and that direct quotation of sources at talk pages would become a requirement for inclusion. I believe this "self-limitation" or "self-amputation" (please excuse the play of words) is destructive of Wikipedia.

Here are some quotes which I place here because they are also interesting: The title of the article within Truth and Tolerance is "Truth of Christianity?" And the section title on page 156 is: "Seeking How to Make Truth Readily Acceptable". On page 157-158 it states:"All our ideas about natural science and all practical applications are based on the assumption that the world is ordered according to rational, spiritual laws, is imbued with rationality that can be traced out and copied by reason." Ratzinger attributes these former ideas to Plato.

He continues: "Any thinking that goes beyond this connection, that tries to look at reason in itself or to see it as preceding the present world, is contrary to the discipline of the scientific method and is therefore utterly rejected as being prescientific... Within the specific path followed by natural science, this limitation is necessary and right. If, however, it is declared to be the absolute and unsurpassable form of human thought, then the basis of science itself becomes contradictory; for it is both proclaiming and denying the power of reason. But above all, a self-limiting reason of that kind is an amputated reason. If man cannot use his reason to ask about the essential things in his life, where he comes from and where he is going... but has to leave these decisive questions to feelings, divorced from reason, then he is not elevating reason but dishonoring it. The disintegration of man, thus brought about, results equally in a pathological form of religion and a pathological form of science. It is obvious today that with the detachment of religion from its responsibility to reason, pathological forms of religion are constantly increasing. But when we think of scientific projects that set no real value on man, such as cloning... or ...produce ever more frightful means for the destruction of men and of the world, then it is obvious that there is such a thing as science that has taken a pathological form...

On page 159: "The strict application of methodological discipline should not mean just the pursuit of success; it should mean the pursuit of truth and the readiness to find it... Ecological disasters could serve as a warning to us that we may see where science is no longer at the service of truth but is destructive of the world and of man. The ability to hear such warnings, the will to let oneself be purified by truth, is essential."

I only quoted what is relevant to the summary I made, but all the rest of what he said is worth every sentence. Jim, I believe Ratzinger's work is original. But even if it is not, there is no policy in Wikipedia that prohibits putting his ideas. In fact we are encouraged to find people who are generally considered to be authoritative about a topic. There are billions of people worldwide who think Ratzinger is authoritative, especially Christians for whom the topic of truth is important, because for them Jesus is Truth itself because he himself said so. It should also be added that there are many ideas from the modern philosophers which are mere regurgitations of what have been said by the Greek and Roman philosophers, but again let me say that the idea of ecological disasters and pathologies of science are quite new ideas.

Again, thanks Jim for the opportunity you have given me to quote these words of a great modern thinker. Marax (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the content immediately under the sub-heading “Minimalist (deflationary) theories” overlaps a bit with the content immediately under the sub-heading “Redundancy and related theories.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by WriteNcomm (talk • contribs) 16:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Correspondence theory and section consistency

I have just brought back Aquinas in the corresponding theory because this theory has to be described much more. I also refer to an old post now in the archives:

I also find the two paragraph criticism of correspondence theory within its own section unusual in the whole article. It is, I believe, one of the few instances, if not the only one, where there is a disproportionately big amount of criticism found in the same section. I believe that this has to resolved, for it shows an inconsistency in the article.

It seems to me strange as well, that Alfred Tarski's theory is mentioned here with this special phrase: "whose semantic theory is summarized further below in this article."

The move which took away Aquinas, placing him in the history section, might have been prompted by the fact that it seems only Aquinas holds on to this idea. So I have added other philosophers who follow the correspondence theory. Marax (talk) 07:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Problem is not that Aquinas wasn't a correspondence theorist, because he was, but that it's extremely misleading to place Aquinas' apologetic theology at the head of a discussion of correspondence theory. Placing it there runs very heavily against Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. There is a place in the article for Medieval philosophers, and room for a separate subsection on Aquinas if there's enough material, along with another separate subsection on Avicenna. Although Aquinas was definitely a correspondence theorist, he neither invented the theory nor is regarded as its most prominent practitioner. Indeed, Aquinas is only one of a long long list of correspondence theorists running up to today. Etienne Gilson has a special place for me personally, and it's a great one. But he most certainly is not prominent enough to dominate the list in the summary section on correspondence theory. Remember there's also an article on correspondence theory that still needs a lot of work. And Wojtyla (Pope John-Paul II) doesn't even belong on the list, except perhaps on an extremely long list including religious perspectives. He's simply not recognized as a philosopher outside a very limited sphere of theology.

Therefore, I'm bringing the section back into line as a summary of the theory with no emphasis on the particular slant of any one of the many correspondence theorists, which was in place from late 2006 though April 2008, along with the earlier last paragraph about its limitations in the minds of its critics (which include Kant and other major figures). We simply do not have space in this one section to give due weight to all the major correspondence theorists. There are at least three very reasonable places to summarize Aquinas' particular correspondence theory, which are in a subsection on Truth#Aquinas under Medieval Philosophers, in Correspondence theory of truth, and in a separate section in Truth (religious).

Although the section on correspondence theory could still be written many different ways, I trust this will be found to be reasonable for the present. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Kenosis, for explaining your side. :) Glad to hear your comments.

Please allow me to reply to your points one by one so we can have a clear dialogue. I believe your points can be summarized basically into these points: I) Not right to put Aquinas to explain corresponding theory because (1) his is an “apologetic theory”, and therefore not neutral, and (2) he has a place elsewhere, (3) he is not the most prominent theorist, nor its inventor. II) the old version is better and has been there longer.

Before I actually write about these points let me also say that there are no counter-arguments yet against what I wrote above: a) it is not neutral to have one theory discussed mainly through the criticisms against it, b) we have to have consistency in dealing with sections: sections should only contain expositions of the theory and not criticisms of the theory, c) Tarski does not seem to have the right to be in the forefront of all discussions, unless it can be argued that he is more famous than Aquinas, which does not seem to follow even with a Google search (1.3 M for tarski; 85,900 for Alfred Tarski; 5.3 M for Aquinas, 3.1. M for Thomas Aquinas)

Aside from these reasons, which I believe are quite strong and have not been rebutted, let me now expound on the two points you raised: I.1. I do not believe that the statements of Aquinas as presented are apologetic, since they are not made to defend anything (apologia = Gk defense), but to state a philosophy of truth. The very fact that it is one of the earliest theory (Plato, etc.) means it is not a defensive theory. Also, the main attack against correspondence theory came from Kant, and Kant is after Aquinas. Although, if you mean by apologetics that his theory seems to be the most rationally well-built of all, then I would agree with you, although perhaps I am unjustifiably guessing too much into your ideas. ;) As to this addition creating neutrality problems, let me stress my points (a) and (b) above. The first time I saw this page, it showed antagonism to correspondence theory, even use of WP:WTA like "claim". So the addition has in fact balanced off the problems of neutrality. I.2. By putting Aquinas elsewhere, i.e. in the history or religion section, we will not be doing justice to the philosophical strength of the correspondence theory, by implying it is a dated concept, even a medieval idea, or a faith-based, non-rational explanation. I.3. I would disagree that Aquinas is not a prominent practitioner; it could be debatable that he is the most prominent, but there is great basis for saying so: for that you can read the Wikipedia article on Aquinas even just the intro. Also, google speaks for the prominence of Etienne Gilson (255,000) and Jacques Maritain ( 378,000). II. An argument for an old version sounds like a violation of WP:OWN. I think the Wikipedia community wants all articles to undergo kaizen, as talkpages like this one asserts.

I am trying to understand your position well. I have tweaked a bit what I did. For example, if the problem is the phrase "major proponent", then I deleted it. But it is a fact that he has influenced a number of philosophers. Many universities around the world are named after him. In fact he cannot be not overemphasized. Be that as it may, what I have done as a form of compromise is to put together all the Thomists, whose “google worth”, to coin a phrase, is worth millions. As another compromise, I have deleted Karol Wojtyla.

Please also take note that the origin of this contribution came from a discussion with User:JimWae here. We saw that it would be interesting for Wikipedia readers that the correspondence theory be discussed more lengthily, and I believe that the philosophers who have written much about this and have developed it fully are the Thomists.

Anyway, thanks again for explaining your points, Kenosis. Marax (talk) 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Some killerchic teaches-- Christian philosophy is apologetics / dogma / theosophy, not actually philosophy per se - Sounds funny- Philosophy written by Christian is still philosophy. Wrong?? Right!! Of course!! Christians are not human? They cant think? They cant philosophize? Do they float in midd-air? Que burrada es esta? Funny! When an secular thinking bloke mentions God in a sentence he is a dogmatist? Wow watta a jump in logic!! Watta a dogmatic thingy-- chrstian philo is dogma- theosophy -apologetic??? Liberatedto (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC) Liberatedto (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's interest will be best served by an exposition of St. Thomas Aquinas' philosophy regarding correspondence theory. I heartily support the inclusion of the ideas of Gilson, Maritain, and other Thomistic epistemologies on truth, intelligence, intelligibility, and so forth. I support Marax's view above. With all due respect to Liberatedto, I have reservations as to his manner of discussion although I essentially support the concept of Christian philosophy as a proper philosophy. The exposition as presented is universally acceptable: by Moslems, Neo-Platonists, and so forth. Therefore, the exposition should remain under correspondence theory.

Please stop edit warring until all the reasons put forth by Marax, Liberatedto, and myself have been addressed. Walter Ching (talk) 03:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)