Talk:Metalcore

Christians

I just added an edit to the Christians in metalcore, to Norma Jean. There was no citation. I made note that a citation is needed for Norma Jean like Zao, As I Lay Dying, and Underoath.Lorenwade (talk) 04:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Expanding metallic hardcore section

I'm thinking of expanding the metallic hardcore section of this page by focusing on the four bands most widely discussed in sources: Integrity, Earth Crisis, Converge, and Hatebreed. This would also address Lyckantrop's concern about the "ideologies" section being too specific. Aryder779 (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's such thing called "metallic hardcore", however I do think theres's a huge difference between melodic metalcore and metalcore, and it should be noted somewhere. --Kmaster (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. There's been a lot of discussion here on the status of melodic metalcore; I included it here as a subgenre, with a number of references. For some strange reason, one or two people around here are convinced that melodic metalcore doesn't exist, and even that all metalcore is melodic (which is definitely false). The information was incorporated into the main body of the "history" section, which in some ways made more sense anyway.

If you check the archives, you'll find a long list of sources for "melodic metalcore" I compiled.

"Metallic hardcore", incidentally, is a term used in the press, so there is such a thing. Whether it's synonymous with metalcore is the question. Aryder779 (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Melodic metalcore sources are here. Aryder779 (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there's enough valid evidence/references to have a "melodic metalcore" section. Seems like some people think Killswitch Engage invented the genre, their definition of metalcore is what they see on MTV2. Wonder if they have listen to Overcast's bleed into one or Converge's halo in a haystack --Kmaster (talk) 16:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Just saw that someone (not me) added this category. Good for them. If anyone wants to claim melodic metalcore isn't a subgenre, I'm willing to help argue with them. Aryder779 (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I still think that melodic metalcore should have its own paragraph on "styles of metalcore", don't you think? --Kmaster (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's occurred to me that the "styles" section should be incorporated into the "history" section. This might make more sense, and it would provide perspective on the way metalcore evolved. A new paragragh could be added to history, including subsections for mathcore and deathcore -- it's important that those developments are parallel to and independent of melodic metalcore. Those subsections also really need to be pruned of OR. Aryder779 (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I've just reworked the "subgenres" section into the "history", which I think makes more clear the distinctions between mathcore, deathcore, and melodic metalcore. Previously, the melodic groups were foregrounded, whereas the others were pushed down to the bottom of the page, which didn't make much sense. I also tried to provide references to substantiate most of what's said about mathcore and deathcore. Aryder779 (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking about adding an infobox for the melodic metalcore section like this one. Any thoughts?--Kmaster (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea, but I've never seen an infobox included in a music genre article for a subgenre. I'm also not sure how it will make the page look. I'm also not sure if deathcore is a derivative of melodic metalcore. I'm not an expert in deathcore, but it seems to me that deathcore borrows more from the '90s metallic hardcore groups or even early mathcore. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aryder779 (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"Deathcore often features breakdowns and melodic riffs." I'm not an expert too but I think it is. It is more like melodic metalcore with even more death metal influences. --Kmaster (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Youth Crew

I dont realy think the "Youth Crew" is relavent in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 23:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's the thing: Youth crew is a lot more relevant than melodic death metal. The early metallic hardcore groups were all influenced by Cro-Mags, Agnostic Front, Youth of Today -- NY hardcore or youth crew groups. They recorded for Equal Vision Records. Look at the early sources on metalcore -- they all talk about straight edge and attributes of the youth crew scene.

I think that the difficulty with this page is that there's a large fanbase of people who love recent groups that owe a lot to At the Gates and not much to the Bad Brains, and those people haven't looked into the real template for metalcore (Integrity, Earth Crisis, Converge, Hatebreed, as I keep repeating). Aryder779 (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Granted that Youth crew adds to the attitude of many Metalcore bands but not to the sound, Melodic Death Metal bands like In Flames, At The Gates and Soilwork have actually had a major musical/stylistic influence on most if not all Metalcore bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 05:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Youth crew does have a strong influence on the sound of the metallic hardcore groups I mentioned -- mainly in the character of the breakdowns. Breakdowns are the definitive attribute of metalcore (as referenced in the article); they were invented by the Bad Brains and practiced by groups like Youth of Today, Cro-Mags, Shelter, etc. -- youth crew groups. Without breakdowns, no metalcore; metalcore groups got their characteristic breakdowns through youth crew.

Melodic death metal, on the other hand, doesn't become an influence until groups like Darkest Hour formed, in the mid-90s -- a good 3-4 years after Earth Crisis, Integrity, Converge, Hatebreed, and a number of other groups were already performing discernible metalcore (and named as such). There are no sources indicating a melodic death metal influence on any of the groups who formed in the early '90s, and those groups were definitely performing metalcore. The mid-90s work of Converge, Dillinger Escape Plan, Candiria, Strife, Coalesce still owes nothing to melodeath, and retains some influence from youth crew (not much in DEP's case, I'll grant you).

It's not really until Atreyu, Underoath, Bullet for My Valentine, All That Remains, Avenged Sevenfold, and Killswitch Engage that a really strong melodeath character appears in metalcore -- and these groups formed after 1998: almost a decade after metalcore had already been established.

So I disagree with your statement that melodeath has an influence on "most if not all" metalcore groups. Rather, it's a relatively late element in the style. Aryder779 (talk) 16:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Youth Crew and Straight Edge have had a small influence on Metalcore compared to Melodic Death Metal, not to say that it hasnt had an influence, Emo curture has even had an influence on Metalcore, for example Avenged Sevenfulled, Underoath, Bullet For My Valentine and Atreyu are all more on the emo side of Metalcore as where Unearth, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains and The Black Dahlia Murder are all on the more Melodic Death Metal side of Metalcore. its just that Straight Edge and Youth Crew are just an additude influence not a Musical or Stylistic influence, i mean yes bands like Killswithc Engage, Bleeding Through, and Darkest Hour follow the Straight Edge lifestyle but so do many other bands in many other genres, so it realy dosnt have a relavence in Metalcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.177.74 (talk) 20:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You've completely ignored everything I've just written about breakdowns (the musical inheritance from youth crew) and the relatively late influence of melodeath. All the bands you're talking about are very late additions to the genre. Aryder779 (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

An analogy would be this: Let's say I wanted to argue that punk rock is a stylistic origin for heavy metal. I could say that Motörhead, Metallica, Slayer, and Anthrax all have obvious punk influences; therefore, punk is an origin for metal. You would reply that this is impossible, because Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and Judas Priest had already invented heavy metal, several years before punk ever happened. There's an equivalent situation with metalcore and melodeath: Even though melodic death metal is a strong influence for Killswitch Engage et. al., that doesn't change the fact that metalcore had already existed for a few years before melodic death metal was ever a style (Integrity and Converge started playing in '89-'90, At the Gates and In Flames didn't start recording until '91 and '94). Aryder779 (talk) 23:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

BTW, since you bring up emo -- I think Converge are actually probably the first metalcore group to bring in emo/post-hardcore influences; they've mentioned Dischord bands as an influence, and you can definitely hear it. None of the other early metalcore groups have that influence, though ... unless you count Born Against. Aryder779 (talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You're confusing melodic metalcore with real metalcore (metallic hardcore) anyway. Melodeath has no influence on bands like Integrity, Converge, Earth Crisis, Overcast... and those were the pioneers. Bullet for my Valentine has no emo influences.. neither atreyu, you're just confusing things. Black Dahlia Murder is more like melodeath so it has nothing to do here. --Kmaster (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Origins of metalcore

Let me further indicate my point on the beginnings of the metalcore genre.
Integrity - formed 1989. Influences: Cro-Mags, Slayer, Septic Death, Samhain, Motörhead, Joy Division. See "Blood Runs Deep", p. 110, Alternative Press, July 7, 2008.
Converge - formed 1990. Influences: Starkweather, Rorschach, Born Against, Godflesh, The Accused, Entombed. See Converge FAQ at [1].
Earth Crisis - formed 1991. Influences: Slayer, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, DYS, Dead Kennedys, The Rolling Stones, and Misfits. See tracklisting on covers album: [2]. Also cited Napalm Death, Bolt Thrower, and Obituary in an interview with Albert Mudrian in Choosing Death -- who are death metal groups, but certainly not melodic ones.
Hatebreed - formed 1994. Influences: Misfits, Metallica, Judge, Cro-Mags, D.R.I., Negative Approach, Agnostic Front, Madball, Sheer Terror, Obituary. See plans for covers album, [3].
These are the first groups to perform metalcore as we know it, and none of them cite a single melodic death metal group (though many of them do mention pre-melodic death metal). All of them cite at least one group associated with the youth crew scene (Cro-Mags, Born Against, DYS, Judge, Agnostic Front, Madball, and Sheer Terror are all linked to youth crew).
And this source strongly indicates Earth Crisis' role as "inheritor" of the legacy of youth crew: [4] Aryder779 (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Melodic death metal should be removed from the origins. Not because melodic metalcore bands have influences on melodeath that means the whole metalcore genre is influenced in that genre. --Kmaster (talk) 16:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is that if someone removes it, I'm almost positive that someone else will add it in the relatively near future -- and without the "after 1995" tag. Aryder779 (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so melodeath has now been removed (not by me, but I endorse the decision). Melodic death metal is only an origin for melodic metalcore -- one subgenre. Metallic hardcore, mathcore, and deathcore groups do not take appreciable influence from melodic death metal, so it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. Aryder779 (talk) 14:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

What about Hard Core as a genre?

A lot of bands that are listed under Metalcore have referred to themselves simply as "Hard Core" bands. Myself, as well as most people I know have referred to them as the same for years. It seems there is a large gap between Hard Core Punk and Metalcore that should be taken up simply as the genre of Hard Core, which should then have subgroups such as Metalcore and Melodic Hard Core, Screamo, etc. In fact, Hard Core must be a genre in order to have Melodic Hard Core, otherwise the "punk" part would be implied, and I know of no Melodic Hard Core band that would refer to themselves as such.

I've always taken Hard Core to be, fundamentally, anything that has serious screaming in it (excluding bands that dabble in screaming, ex. Pedro the Lion, Modest Mouse, Beck, Foo Fighters, etc.). This article is very well written and researched, but seems to be severely lacking in this area, and has a slant of personal opinion, rather than an objective one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.203.177.177 (talk) 14:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this article has POV problems. What you're talking about is hardcore punk, by the way. Some people do make a distinction between hardcore punk and simply "hardcore", but this distinction is vague and has no sources to back it up. Aryder779 (talk) 17:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Meshuggah?

Meshuggah is a math metal band, not mathcore. —91.78.183.106 (talk) 12:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's a progressive metal band.--Kmaster (talk) 17:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Progressive metal is not that descripted at all. Dream Theatre and Pagans Mind are Progressive metal. Meshuggah sound nothing like them. More of an avant-garde death metal band....Opeth is progressive + death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.117.211 (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, whatever, that band doesn't belong here.--Kmaster (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Melodic Metalcore

I don't really think that As i Lay Dying are really Melodic Metalcore. They aren't very melodic at all and don't use clean vocals often —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonasbrotherareterrible (talk • contribs) 03:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You can find a lot of clean vocals on Shadows are Security and An Ocean Between us. Including their huge melodeath influence. --Kmaster (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Early metalcore / Metallic hardcore

Why "metallic hardcore"? These groups, aside from the crossover bands, were the first to be branded metalcore, and many still refer to them as such. Also, several sources use Earth Crisis, Biohazard, Deadguy, and similar bands to define metalcore. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Many real hardcore fans call them metallic hardcore instead of metalcore to set a difference between KsE from Deadguy, for example. And it's sourced. --Kmaster (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Many "real hardcore fans," myself included, prefer to call them metalcore. But that doesn't matter, does it? POV is POV. As for your source, I'm sorry, but that does not change a thing. This is a metalcore article and we are discussing early metalcore groups, and all under the "metallic hardcore" section have been labelled metalcore, with the genre sourced at some point in the article. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The new source does not support your claim that all early metalcore is "metallic hardcore," as members of Shai Hulud also used it to describe "metal-influenced hardcore" and "hardcore-influenced metal." The older source can be used for Converge and to support "These groups are sometimes referred to as metallic hardcore.", but not much else. As I said, all under the "metallic hardcore" section are metalcore, and the genre is sourced for each. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I really don't see that it's that big a deal whether we title the heading "metallic hardcore" or "early metalcore". Metallic hardcore happens to be a bit more specific, and to be supported by some sources. To be sure, the earliest metalcore groups were metallic hardcore groups, so it's six or half a dozen. I'm a bit less certain as to how to handle the dates. 1989 seems like a good place to start, because that's when Integrity started playing and when the youth crew groups started getting serious about thrash metal (and eventually death metal). But when should the "metallic hardcore" era be said to stop? Saying 1989-1995 sounds kind of weird, because crucial albums like Petitioning the Empty Sky came out in '96. I would say that metallic hardcore/early metalcore tends to refer to groups who formed prior between '89 and '95, but oftentimes produced significant recordings later in the '90s or in the early '00s. Aryder779 (talk) 23:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It's sourced so it stays as Metallic hardcore. --Kmaster (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

No. You're pushing POV, guy. 70.152.184.189 (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually you are. And this is your last warning per WP:3RR --Kmaster (talk) 00:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. I've stuck with the theme of the article (metalcore) and all bands are sourced. And you do realize you've also violated the 3RR, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.184.189 (talk) 17:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No you haven't. You haven't read the article, neither our opinions or the sources, You're just pushing your POV persistently. We are not talking about bands here. And do you realize 3RR is a 2 editors incident, right?--Kmaster (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

"as members of Shai Hulud also used it to describe "metal-influenced hardcore" and "hardcore-influenced metal." There you go. Musicians and fans often call those bands metallic hardcore and there's the proof. Like Aryder779 said; it is more specific and it is supported by sources. --Kmaster (talk) 21:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This IP user(s) doesn't seem to stop, this person is trying to avoid 3RR while still reverting to something of his personal liking not to everyone else's unanimous decision. The Phantomnaut (talk) 06:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I made a small edit that we can all agree upon. Apologies. The Phantomnaut (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Why include genres in headings? There will always be debate, and claiming one genre existed from year X to year Y smacks of OR and POV. 70.152.170.23 (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The only "debate" is your constantly and annoying POV pushing, there's no OR because there are sources. Just ask Aryder779 and he will tell you all of them.--Kmaster (talk) 03:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

For every every "metallic hardcore" source there is a "metalcore" or "hardcore metal" source. Get over it. My point: As we disagree, others will disagree. There's no need for subgenres in headings. The genre's early years were its early years and recent developments are recent developments. 70.152.170.23 (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that's ridiculous. Removing the subgenre headings is absurd. They enhance readability, provide logic to the layout, and are copiously supported by sources. Aryder779 (talk) 14:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The compromise system that was up for a while, with the "recent developments" section and tertiary level subsections, seemed to have little to recommend it, from my perspective. It added nothing in terms of clarity or accuracy and made the page considerably messier. Aryder779 (talk) 14:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You gotta be kidding me, As "we" disagree? Only you disagree. And metallic hardcore is metalcore, but you can't get that, right? Oh and here's something that you can't vandalize, Wikipedia Policies.--Kmaster (talk) 19:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Metallic hardcore is slightly different than metalcore. For instance, Shadows Fall is essentially a metal band by default. But if someone called Shadows Fall "metallic hardcore" it would seem to suggest they are a "heavy metal-influenced hardcore band". It sounds odd doesn't it? Most would view Shadows Fall as primarily a metal band since they display alot of the elements of metal on a basic foundation. Now a band like Agnostic Front is commonly agreed as a hardcore band by default. Now if you described them as "metallic hardcore" it wouldn't feel out of place. It seems okay to describe them as a "heavy metal-influenced hardcore band" or "metallic hardcore" which the adjective (metallic) describes the noun (hardcore). I know it sounds a little geeky but it is just some food for thought. BertrumRedneck Bertrumredneck (talk) 02:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Vocals: Good cop/Bad cop?

I always hear or read about some of the metalcore bands having harsh vocals while having very clean and melodic singing (good cop/bad cop). Very apparent in The Devil Wears Prada and some others (especially mainstream post-hardcore influenced). Should it be mentioned or does it seem too stupid? The Phantomnaut (talk) 04:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The use of clean vocals in melodic metalcore is substantiated in the article. Aryder779 (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Deathcore and melodic metalcore

Someone added a modification to the deathcore section, indicating that it's an offshoot of melodic metalcore. I've changed it back, because it's original research. I've not seen any evidence that deathcore groups take inspiration exclusively from melodic metalcore groups, though I suppose that tinge is probably there. I would tend to see Hatebreed, for example, as anticipating deathcore more than Shadows Fall or whatever. If anybody has a contrary source, feel free to discuss it here. Aryder779 (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Aren't musics ending in -core all part of the punk rock movement.

Like musics ending in - metal are part of the metal movement. musics ending in -core are supposed to be part of the hardcore punk movement. Just as many genres of metal take major influence from punk music but remain a metal genre the same way many genres of punk are greatly influenced from metal but remain punk. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Today's metalcore (melodic metalcore) is not even part of the hardcore movement. For me "metalcore" is just melodic death metal, just replace the blast beats with breakdowns, so it's not punk rock, and it's not hardcore punk anymore. Kinda funny, it's rejected by metalheads as a metal genre, and it's rejected as a hardcore punk genre by hardcore fans. What the hell is then? Sounds more like a subgenre of melodeath to me. --Kmaster (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

true - I think its the name that gives it the impression its punk. genres ending in -core was a Hardcore punk invented thing. Each genre was basically an advancement on Hardcore. I.e. crustcore. Napalm Death was always classed as punk when they started. Even though they have said numerous times in interviews metal fans would still class them as death metal or similar so they invented the term grindcore (they were often associated alongside Hardcore, Anarcho- / Anarch-core, Skatecore & Crustcore punk etc when they started which is obviously the origin of the term).

Melodeath would sound more correct. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Metalcore is a genre that seems to be shared and denied by the metal and hardcore crowd. Metalcore is generally far more oriented in the metal world since the metal guitar sound and drumming overpowers much of the hardcore elements in the overall sound. So a genre ending with "core" doesn't mean it is part of the hardcore punk movement. If that was true then RAPCORE would be a hardcore punk genre but the term is used to describe acts like Limp Bizkit and even Rage Against the Machine. The term GRINDCORE is predominantly a metal sound and what seperates it from brutal death metal is grindcore's song lengths and lessened technicality. Bertrumredneck (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It was originally only a punk thing. started from Hard"core" punk. As normal punk gave way to new wave post punk and the core of punk rock moved into be predominently the Hardcore punk scene, many different variations of hardcore evolved based on different messages. Grindcore evolved from Crust-core. Ask Napalm Death as they have constantly mentioned it.

With punk rock the "genre" are nessessarily a difference in music as much as in message or image. Anarch-core (Anarcho-punk) is barely different from Hardcore punk musically but the message is different. The same is with Crust-core. Hardcore being the first title for the many -core genres covers groups from Black Flag through to Discharge through to Intense Degree through to Extreme noise Terror and Napalm Death.

The problem arrises when fans of metal do not know what the hardcore punk bounderies are and assume that everything with aggressive or loud guitaring, drums or vocals is metal. It is because of metal fans classes Napalm Death as metal that the band actually invented the term "Grindcore". Obviously they couldn't call themselves as Crust-core as their message is different. It is through metal fans (and bands) lack of understanding punk that the use of -core get pulled into metal. -core is used on the different sides of "hardcore Punk". Punk got more aggressive quicker than metal did hence punk influencing both the NWOBHM and then thrash metal which bridge across between metal and punk. Just as metal groups took influence from punk music. Punk bands (like Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, Anal Cunt, Dr and the Crippens or Intense Degree) took influence from Heavy Metal (inc. thrash etc)Metalosaurus (talk) 10:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)