Talk:List of Disney villain characters

Needs clarification in opening paragraph

to explain exactly what qualifies characters on this list as being a villain. The majority of this list appears to be anything that could be construed as being "bad" because that's what they do ("various thugs"???) versus things that are truly villainous. SpikeJones (talk) 17:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

link cleanup

This page has links that lead to the wrong articles! I don't know how to fix it so can someone change it please! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.24.236.84 (talk • contribs) . --Slgrandson 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...

• THIS PAGE SHOULD BE CHANGED FROM "DISNEY VILLAINS" TO "DISNEY ANTAGONISTS" SO WE CAN ALL STOP FIGHTING!!!!!
• This list is a little one-sided. Shouldn't this also contain villains from Disney's live-action library? Two good places to start: Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl and Sky High. --Slgrandson 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think so, i think there should be one list for animated disney villains and one for live action villains
• I have removed the ringmaster and matriarch from Dumbo because they show no sign of liking to be evil. The ringmaster does not hurt Dumbo and the matriarch is only a gossip. I have also removed the crocodile from Peter Pan from the list because he is trying to eat the main villains and no one else.
  • Yes but the ringmaster still tortured Dumbo for fun.
    • Yeah I agree, that is pretty evil, what about the clowns?

• I have added the pike, wolf and hawk from the Sword in the Stone because they all try to eat King "Wart" Arthur.

• I have removed the alligators from Fantasia because there is no indication that they are evil. Also their leader Ben Ali Gator falls in love with the lead hippo.

• I removed Kronk from The Emperor's New Groove because there is no indication that he is evil or enjoys being evil. Besides he doesn't want to hurt or kill anyone, and at one point in the film he saves Kuzco from falling off the waterfall.

• I removed Molt from A Bug's Life because, he doesn't attack any of the ants and he ends up going to work with P.T and the circus bugs. I also removed the vultures from the Lion King because they didn't have any big roll in the movie and were just doing what they do.

• I removed King Louie because although he kidnapped Mowgli, he never wanted to hurt anyone, all he wanted was to learn how to be human.

• I removed the monstrous forest trees from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs because they were nothing more than trees that looked...well..monstrous, especially when it's dark.

• I removed the villains from The Brave Little Toaster because it is not a Disney movie, it was produced by Hyperion pictures; I don’t think that belongs to Disney.

• I removed Darla from Finding Nemo because she just wants a pet fish and she always shakes the bag excitedly which kills the fish. She thinks the fish are very sleepy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.89.208 (talk) 18:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

20'000 Leagues Villains

I don't know if I should add any villains from 20K Leagues. The squid has been confirmed by Walt Disney (in archive clips) to be the real villain, but it behaves like it's just a scared monster. I also don't know if I should the Cannibals. Themeparkfanatic

Bowler Hat Guy?

Didn't the Bowler Hat Guy get reformed in the end of the movie?, as he's shown with Lewis and Wilbur, though, he takes off leaving his notebook behind showing that he's unsure on what to do now? Captain Drake Van Hellsing 01:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Jasper and Horace

Shouldn't Jasper and Horace be under the "Reformed villains" section? They were reformed at the end of 101 Dalmatians 2 Patch's London Adventure weren't they?

The perfect reason why Capt. Fawcett was the main villain in "The Pacifier"

Capt. Fawcett promised the Chuns he'd give them the GHOST (Mr. Chun said so himself after Shane got K.O.'d). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numbuh 303 (talk • contribs) 20:45, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Nothing Wrong with Original List

My edits were not based on opinion. They were based on what happened in the films, you don't need a website to tell you who the villains are. Besides that website isn't a very good source. It leaves out many villains and hasn't been updated since the 1990s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmDrag21 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your input on this talk page. This article was requested to have citations and general cleanup from at least February 2008, and no citations were added that supported any of the claims in the opening paragraph or that qualifies the listed characters as being villains. Disney has published an official list of who they say are their villains, so any other additions to this list will need to be properly cited per WP:CITE policy. Adding any other character without a citation can be construed as WP:OR, as other editors may not agree with your opinion on that character's role. As for your claim that "that website is not a good source", then please tell me why an Official Disney Website listing, as edited by a Disney Employee specializing in Disney History would not qualify as a proper citation for use in WP? SpikeJones (talk) 16:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, it leaves out many other villains, such as the hyenas from "The Lion King", Honest John and Gideon, Monstro and the Coachman from Pinocchio and other. Secondly, by the looks of it, it hasn't been updated since 1998. The only real source(s) you need are the films themselves.

Viewing the films and making an assumption of who is or isn't a Villain vs something that is merely scary falls under WP:OR violation and should not be included here without a proper citation. I don't recall seeing a datestamp on that page, so there's no way you can say that it's dated information "by the looks of it", and even then it wouldn't preclude that information from being used as a valid source --- especially when you're looking at films that fall in the timeframe you suggest the article represents that aren't included on that list. Scary character does not equal villain. That all said, if you would like to contribute to a non-citable, non-encyclopedic site that is based on opinion vs fact, you may want to visit http://www.disneyvillains.net/ instead. That site may be more to what you are looking for. Hope this helps. SpikeJones (talk) 18:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

One additional source that should be allowable, if we can track down a copy of it, is the book entitled THE DISNEY VILLAIN by Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas, which discusses 59 different villain characters through Aladdin. Again, considering it is a Disney publication written by two of the Nine Old Men who created those characters in the first place, you can't get much more exact of a citable reference than that. SpikeJones (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Now, you're being ridiculous. It's pretty obvious it hasn't been updated because it does not feature any films from after 1998. And please don't put words in my mouth, not once did I say that "scary character" equals villain. ALL of the edits were based on the characters' actions in the film. You might as well deleted this article if you're going to be so complicated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmDrag21 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I recall that this page, for whatever reason, passed its AfD nomination the last time I specifically looked through the archive. Based on your recommendation, I'm more than happy to resubmit it. Based on the way the page was formerly written (uncited, containing copywritten material taken word-for-word from other websites, massive WP:OR), it very well could have been speedily-deleted easily. But since it's now cited and contains a reasonably accurate list based on official Disney sources, it's a good base to continue building from. Regardless of your discussion on info post-1998, all I can request from you is to find cited material that places those specific characters as a villain. Not merely henchmen, not merely the antagonist, not merely scary characters. But truly villainous. Otherwise, if this article turns back into a list of scary characters that happen to threaten the film hero, then the likelihood of the article being deleted outright becomes greater. If you are unfamiliar with WP policies on creating proper page content, I suggest you read up on WP:CITE, WP:POV, and WP:OR. Cheers. SpikeJones (talk) 14:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

POV?!

I agree with the previous remarks made by others here; lack of sources does not a POV statement make. For instance, I submitted Clayton from "Tarzan" on here and the edit was removed on the grounds that it was "POV". It certainly does not seem like a point-of-view statement to me, because there's only one thing Clayton can be and that is a villain; surely you can't pretend that he was just a good citizen trying to help out by caging gorillas? It certainly is not POV, so perhaps if the likes of SpikeJones on here wishes to have cites, deriding a statement as POV would not be the most reasonable solution, if anything, such a statement removed might be listed as "un-cited". Besides, items like that are something of an elephant in the room in that they are too obvious to be ignored. My point is that just because something is either not cited or cannot be cited certainly does not make it POV. Use common sense, says I.--KnowledgeLord (talk) 22:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If it's uncited, it's either going to be due to being POV or OR. Take your pick. Disney has been very specific about who IS and who ISN'T a villain in their own released documentation, even to go as far as saying that there is a difference merely being scary, acting under orders, or being a villain. To add anyone who is not present in those lists or otherwise documented should be frowned upon. If I had my druthers, this page shouldn't exist... but since it somehow survived afd, the least we can do is ensure that what is listed is properly cited and referenced. SpikeJones (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Now some important villains are missing such as Xehanort, Yzma, Dr. Jaque von Hämsterviel, Oogie Boogie, The White Witch and Davy Jones. Also henchmen are considered villains. No offense but this is the list of disney villains not list of disney supervillains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.233.218 (talk) 03:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have proper citations that show those characters are villains, then feel free to add them. If you do not have Disney-supported citations stating such, then any additions you make will be considered POV and will be removed. In your opinion, henchmen are villains, but this is not a supported statement in available Disney documentation. SpikeJones (talk) 03:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Would the real list of [1] count? Because it states Yzmas as being a villain and the disney wiki says she is too as well as Davy Jones, The White Witch and Dr.Hamsterviel. Is that good evidence? Please tell me if this is good information. Though Oogie and Xehanorts proof of being a villain isn't proven yet. Though Oogie is considered the deadliest disney villain in Syndromes page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.233.218 (talk) 04:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

First, please remember to sign your posts by using four tildes. Secondly, feel free to register a WP username as it will make it easier to converse with you. As to your questions: the list presented on UltimateDisney.com does not count as it is merely the results of a fan poll and not something that is citable as an unbiased third-party reference. The Disney Wiki is not valid as that too is a fan-edited, biased source. As for your statement about Syndrome's page, that doesn't make sense as there isn't any mention of Oogie on the link you provide. SpikeJones (talk) 04:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry thier was something in thier that said that but it must have been changed. I wonder if thier is any official disney source of villains after the 1990's? I came to figure that a definately unofficial list would exclude Maleficent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.233.218 (talk) 04:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

How aboyt the other two mentioned in the link below the list wich are Madame Mim and The Queen of Hearts? Should they be mentioned in the list like Willie the Giant? —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC).

Please register a WP account and use that to post your questions, as this is the last I will respond until you do so. And no - you MUST have a reference before you add any additional items. As you can see, Willie is awaiting a citation (proper citation in CITE VIDEO format with appropriate timestamp for videos), and if no cite is provided soon, it will be removed. Please read WP policies on citations for more details. SpikeJones (talk) 12:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

This is stupid, you only have a list of villains from before the nineties. I agree with AmDrag, look no further than the movies for proof. If they are doing something evil, aren't they by definition a villain. And also, the disney wiki is may be an opinion website but when you think about it, so is wikipedia.-Disneyvillainman (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that WP requires citations that support the statement that so-and-so is a villain per the character's creators. IF you can find reputable, citable, 3rd-party sources that can support that without delving into opinion, then they can be added. SpikeJones (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see how common sense or films wouldn't be reliable citations. I mean seriously, not counting Clayton, Shan Yu, Rourke, Yzma, or Scroop (and many others on that note) borders on imbecilic.-Disneyvillainman (talk) 02:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have official Disney documentation that says that they are villains (just as we have official Disney documentation for those villains that are currently listed), then cite the source and add them. If you do not have a source that says this, then adding those characters to this page will be considered original research. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for opinion or conjecture. Using an extreme example - Joe Editor may feel that it is common sense to add Winnie-the-Pooh as a villain because of the way he treats the bees in the honey tree. What's to say that Joe Editor is wrong...or right? That's right - a citation from Milne that says that this is actually the case is all that's needed. SpikeJones (talk) 03:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay but I still think that it should be Disney antagonists and just use the definition of antagonist to define the characters as being those who oppose the primary protaganist. The word villain greatly limits what this article can do while the word antagonist requires almost no citation.-Disneyvillainman (talk) 03:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that when you say "requires almost no citation", those edits... no matter what the article topic... will likely be deleted because of that. WP policy is that every item added needs to be citable, cross-checked, referenced. No opinion is allowed. In this case, your thought as to who an antagonist is could be questioned by someone who thinks otherwise, especially as that term could be vaguely interpreted - which is why citations are required. Feel free to read up on WP's policy over at WP:CITE, and more importantly perhaps, WP:VER. To address your specific suggestion of restructuring this page to be "Disney antagonists" vs "Disney villains", I recall that there have been various antagonist-related pages in the past, but they were deleted as being too generic a list of random Disney characters. If you are serious about heading in that direction, I suggest browsing through the deleted pages logs to see why those pages were deleted before proceeding down that path again. SpikeJones (talk) 04:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for finally answering my question instead of repeating the same phrase: "non-citable material is POV". I still think that there's no point in making such a small list but if you think it is worth it then go ahead. And I'm not using my definintion of antagonist but the one on wikitionary.-Disneyvillainman (talk) 14:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Looking at what is listed at antagonist, the page states contrary to popular belief, the antagonist is not always the villain, but simply those who oppose the main character. The problem in applying that definition here is that there is a grouping of Disney characters that are referred to specifically as villains (as listed here, and as written about in the Disney Villain book mentioned previously) and there are characters that just get in the way of the main character but aren't villainous in nature. Tinkerbell, for example, is often lumped into the antagonist category... but she wouldn't be deemed villainous, and there would be some who believe that Tink *isn't* an antagonist, she's just in love with Peter and extremely jealous/protective. I could bring up other examples - but as you can see, there's still too much room for opinion in moving the article in that direction. SpikeJones (talk) 15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

Since Mickey's House of Villains is offical Disney resourse, would we not be able to cite a villain's appearance in that movie on the list since the movie made it clear that only villains were to be in the club after "It's Our house Now"-Disneyvillainman (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I just watched the video again, and the problem you'll have justifying the appearance of characters in the film also shows an inherent issue with the matching WP article -- just because a character appears in that section of the film that takes place in the club doesn't mean that they're an official Disney Villain. (Pooh and Piglet, for example, are shown in the song!) How would you justify saying that "the hitchhiking ghosts" are even Disney Villains (OR even antagonists, as the other article claims them to be), when they never even appeared in any Disney animated feature film in the first place? In the short, their only claim for being in the song portion is that Cruella released them from a box. Similarly, the marching cards are not villains, they are merely carrying out the Queen of Hearts' orders. In essence, the House of Mouse video appears to me to mimic the existing cited villain references, and as such there is no need to add it here. If you can point out a specific Villain from that song that you believe needs to be added to the list AND you can provide a timecode to share for exactly where in the song the Villain appears, that would be most helpful. To make it easy for others to join in so we can all work from the same source when discussing this, here's a YouTube video of the song in question. SpikeJones (talk) 04:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I had several villains with an official Disney citing. Can you help me get it up?-Disneyvillainman (talk) 14:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Shere Kahn

Shouldn't he be here? If Kaa is here, Shere Kahn should definetly be on this list. Pyrotics (talk) 21:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)