Talk:Elvis Presley

I can't think of anything more disturbing that the thought of Wikipedia bowing to racial prejudice.

If this cant be removed then please shorten the argument, I am not finding any conclusions out of this, if you strongly think this is important then by all means keep it, but this is way too long.--RafiCHAMP¹ 23:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry sir, but I do not agree with sweeping information under the rug - palatable or not. No clearer justification for this can be shown than racism. The underpinnings of Wikipedia is the improvement of human knowledge. Racism divides us; it limits our thinking.

Besides, if it is controversial, then it is of note. If it is of note, then Wikipedia should include it, and do so proportionally to the importance to the topic (obviously it is extremely important in this case or people would not be so motivated to manipulate it). If it is verifiable information it should be included period. If it is changed 600 times, especially in the case of racial prejudice, then it should be corrected 601 times. Sooner or later somebody will come along and post that information again anyway. Throwing our hands up in disgust or cowering away from facing up to the responsibility of Wikipedia to prevent wrong or biased information from being disseminated in its name shouldn't even be given a second thought. I certainly realize the difficulty, but work important to human progress is rarely easy.

I would suggest putting a disclaimer on the page that information has been removed because it upsets some people, but it would significantly reduce my respect for Wikipedia if that were to occur.

I'll end my rant there, but this greatly troubles me. I won't change the page until I have 100% verifiable, undeniable evidence of everything I post on this page, but assuming I can obtain that proof I will change the page to reflect the facts. I hope and expect that the people most involved with editing this page will jealously guard those facts from being removed, as this is important knowledge for all of us - changing it 601 times if necessary. Webjedi (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Webjedi. Please pardon my ignorance (perhaps you are referring to something that happened or was discussed before I started here) but would you be so kind as to explain in a little more detail what has upset you so much? I'd hate to think something within this article is inaccurate, and I'd be even more horrified if something within this article was offensive to anyone. Also, it would be easier for me to monitor what is upsetting if I knew what it was. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

See Talk Archive 23. In July I read this article and saw that the fact that he was Jewish was left out even though other components of his ancestry were listed and yet there was a reference at the bottom of the page Entitled Elvis's Jewish Roots. Furthermore, he was part Native American. A Jewish Native American! In other words, he was a good 'ole American mutt (most of us are). There aren't many people in history that have made such an impact as he did. Few (if any) have the power to contribute to social understanding 30 years post mortem. Certainly there are no other Native American Jews that have fundamentally changed an entire society.

I incorrectly connected the reasoning on that page with the removal of my edit. Going back through, I now see my change was removed due to construction of the article. Nevertheless the original reference was removed for desire to be rid of controversy. Apparently there are still many people that refuse to accept he was not 100% WASP. I don't want to accuse people of being racist but when you have an article being vandalized or edit wars going on there is something behind it. I simply feel Wikipedia has a responsibility to be an engine of social progress, and leaving out the fact that one of the greatest icons in our nation's history was so racially diverse is sidestepping that duty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by W3bj3d1 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added a new reference that backs up the claims he was of Jewish heritage. I noticed in at least one of the previous references it was mentioned, but the one I've added is primarily about that subject. From what I understand, the term "mixed ancestry" was used to remove the listy feel of every nationality and religion Elvis was. There are plenty of references linked to that, however, and each read is quite detailed and informative. Perhaps, if others felt it was a good idea, you could begin a section on his diverse backgrounds? I know that I find it fascinating that Elvis had such a wide and varied ancestry, and must admit that I don't know too much about it. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur, it should be topic of further exploration. Not just that he was Jewish, but that he was mixed in the true 'melting pot' style of America. If there is anything uniquely American, it is Elvis; and I think for all those who preach against "racial impurity" it goes to show how very wrong they are.

BTW, in order to be considered Jewish a person has to come from an unbroken line of female Jews going back to before the time of the Roman Empire. Jews account for something like .02% of World population. American Indians are about 1/4 that number making up ~.005% of World population. If I'm doing my math right that means he had <1 in 80,000 chance of being included in those two lines of ancestry simultaneously (though that doesn't account for entropy due to the his proximity to the full-blooded Native American lineage). —Preceding unsigned comment added by W3bj3d1 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to the previous editor for summarizing the unbelievable silliness of the "Elvis was Jewish" idea. It's small wonder that this article about a fine American artist, and an honorable military serviceman, was removed from GA status. Large parts of the article are just plain rubbish! Let me point out just one glaring defect: Elvis recorded many Gospel songs, a huge part of his output if you look through the discography - and his faith was a central part of his life (hence the "Graceland" name). But there's hardly a mention of it in the article. How many of you editors have even been to an Elvis concert? If you had attended even one concert, you'd be able to immediately spot the massive disconnect between the reality of Elvis in real life and the silly pointless twaddle in this article. The whole thing reads like it was written by 9/11 truthers. Bushcutter (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't actually think anywhere in the article that it says Presley was Jewish. There is a link to the heritage part which explains in detail as much about his Jewish heritage as his other heritage, but it doesn't actually state he is Jewish anywhere in the article itself. And this might just be a minor point to some who don't actually know the facts, but Graceland wasn't named by Presley and so his faith has absolutely nothing to do with the name Graceland. It was named after the daughter of the man who built it, S. E. Toof. Care to guess the name of his daughter? Anyone who answered Grace can have a point! Secondly, there is more than enough evidence to back up claims that Presley had Jewish heritage, and there is also enough evidence to suggest that Presley knew of his Jewish roots. To be of Jewish heritage is maternal acquisition because there is no mistaking who is the mother of a child. Because Presley's Jewish heritage ran uninterrupted down through his maternal grandmothers, according to Jewish law Presley would be considered Jewish. He may not have openly advertised the fact he knew of his Jewish roots, and he may not have taken part in any kind of Jewish tradition, but there's no denying that he had Jewish ancestry. He put a Star of David on his mothers grave when she died, so I hardly think we can say that he kept it a complete secret. Please feel free to discuss the article and suggest corrections or improvements, but if you are going to do so at least use information that is accurate in future. I don't mind how many people come here and point out mistakes or improvements, but I do mind people who come here and don't know the facts before attacking other editors for the amount of hard work they have put into an article. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 10:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Were you aware that a lot of Christian churches have the Star of David in them? As proof of anything, it fails. Collect (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it proved anything at all. From all I have read it was because of her Jewish roots that he did it. If you have an alternative source that undoubtedly proves it was for other reasons then I'd be very happy to read it. The decision was made by him in honour of his Jewish heritage, something his mother was proud of and acknowledged to Elvis at a very early age. It may very well be used by a lot of Christian Churches, but it is generally recognised as a Jewish symbol, and as Gladys was open with Elvis about their ancestry, I see no reason to doubt that it was placed there for that very reason, especially as her gravestone carries both the Star of David and a Cross. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

WP requires cites for claims, not proof that the claim was errant. In short - do you have a cite quoting him as saying he did it because she was Jewish? By the way, many Muslims also use the Magen David -- so using it as proof of "Jewishness" is even weaker than you might have thought. Unless you find a reliable source on your claim, it does not belong in the article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 13:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not in the article at all. The only part of the article that links to anything about Elvis having Jewish ancestry is in the Early Life section, where a link or two were placed for those who felt it should be mentioned. It doesn't say anywhere that Elvis was, is or thought of himself as Jewish. By all accounts, he didn't think of himself as Jewish, but he did know of his Jewish ancestry. What is wrong with that? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there you go. Collect, I think we're just whistling in the wind here. The ensuing discussion shows more than ever that few, if any, here have a clue what Elvis was really about in real life, and clearly none of obsessive types have ever been to an Elvis concert and seen the man in real life and listened to him sing from his heart. The obsession with irrelevant trivia (his "Jewishness", the clueless discussion of his mother's addictions, trying to find evidence of "racial prejudice" in the man, his lack of sexual perversions, the lack of understanding of his annoyance with the Beatles, the low quality discussion of his military service, and the almost total lack of discussion of the most important part of his life: his Christian faith) is what has driven the quality of this article down from "not bad" status, to its present "bloody awful" status. Bushcutter (talk) 20:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What seems to be the problem here? This whole section starts with someone complaining about there being no mention of Presley's Jewish roots. So what is done? A link, only a link, no actual mention in the article, about his Jewish ancestry. Now we have people complaining that it mentions it at all? How do we go forward with this? If we remove the link, which is all that it is, then someone will come along and complain about it not being included. If we keep in the link, which is all that it is, then someone will come along and complain about it being included. I for one, don't have any interest either way about Elvis and his Jewish ancestry. It wasn't me that initially brought up the whole Jewish thing, and it wasn't me who put the first link. I only added one extra link for someone who thought it had been missed out. It's what it is, it's suggested in the article, and that's it. If any of you feel you can do a better job of the article then feel free. I'm interested to see how it goes and how well those people deal with free-flowing criticism of nearly everything they've written. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm bemused by Bushcutter's bitter comments here. If he/she wants to, they should post rewrites or edits of the sections that are so disliked (with supporting citations). Bushcutter clearly has little knowledge of how this article has had to evolve to keep various ardent editors happy; several, if not all, currently active editors are less than happy with the article, but it is a lot better than it was before any nominations. It was downgraded to B class because of failure to agree on edits to reduce its length. If Bushcutter is an unhappy reader, can I suggest they make positive suggestions regarding change, and refrain from gratuitously insulting the positive, time-consuming and arduous efforts of editors who could quite easily have kissed this god-forsaken article good bye a long time ago. Rikstar (talk) 18:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

As always when this comes up, the most straightforward solution would be the "mixed ancestry" statement followed with the references for all of the "groups" in the mix. This doesn't sweep anything under the rug. It acknowledges it, but in a way that doesn't give it importance out of proportion to the entire man, his life, and his importance. This is more or less what we have now, but someone feels the Cherokee part deserves special mention. Maybe someone would like to start an article on Elvis's Ancestry? As Rikstar points out, we've keep going over the same ground here.Steve Pastor (talk) 19:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The Cherokee mention is made as the immediate prior mention is about his primarily European ancestry. Most people do not consider Cherokees to be European. Yes, we could have absolutely zero mention of his ancestry. The mention now is far shorter than it had been when the article was most bloated. Collect (talk) 13:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, see, although many Jewish people came to the US from Europe, the ancestral home of the Jewish people isn't in Europe. So, by the same logic of "the Cherokee aren't from Europe"....you could make a case for Presley's Jewish ancestry being mentioned. I think it's best to have no exceptions to all of the mix being in references. But it's not a big deal.Steve Pastor (talk) 15:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

For well over a thousand years, the Ashkenazim (literally "German Jews") have been European. Collect (talk) 16:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to respectfully suggest that there's a level of authoritarian ignorance at play here that dooms this article. For instance, the obsession with race, ancestry, and racism completely dishonors Elvis' Christian faith in which the concept of "race" doesn't exist. Amongst Christian believers, there is no color or race. And here's a note from the section below to show an example of an editor gratuitously re-introducing an utterly pointless bit of trivial trash: "I have reincluded the remark relating to Gladys's drinking problem, as it is of some importance." How does this type of scurrilous rubbish - whether it's true or not - contribute to a good quality article? Answer: it doesn't. It belongs in an article about Gladys, not Elvis. The result is an article that is so bad that the reader can't help but feel waves of shame from reading such mean-spirited nastiness. I can only weep at the mean and grinding insults being heaped upon the memory of a fine, gallant, and honorable American man by people who have never met him. It's painful to see it. Bushcutter (talk) 06:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I mean no disrespect when I say this, Bushcutter, you clearly sound like an intelligent person who is interested in seeing this article reach its potential, but sadly you are coming across as an obsessive fan who thinks that Presley was a perfect man with no failings. We know that isn't true. He was an adulterer, a liar, a drug user/abuser, and he contemplated murder on at least one occasion. That's just the stuff we know about. It's not things that have been made up by any editor here, it's facts that have been cited and spoken of by the men and women who knew, worked with, loved and lived with Presley for many of his years on this planet. I don't understand your point about "the obsession with race, ancestry, and racism..." as there is no mention in the article about his race or ancestry except for one sentence at the very beginning that links to other sites for the facts. Regarding the racism, I haven't read anywhere in the article that says he was a racist. There are claims that he acted or spoke in a racist manner on occasion, but there is also a counterbalance to suggest that it was taken out of context and he wasn't a racist. You might feel it's not relevant to the article, and that's your prerogative, but as it is a direct attack on Presley, it is only fair for it to be defended against, and again it doesn't go into such great detail that it requires hacking to pieces. You constantly bring up his Christian faith, and it's common knowledge that Presley was a strong believer in God and was a charitable man in many ways, but let us not allow a man's faith to be a cloak of invisibility over the rest of his life. Presley was human. Flesh and blood like any of us, and he had his faults and sins which he couldn't escape. If we were to remove everything in the article that is negative towards this man, then it would genuinely be a "fan shrine" which is something that I personally do not want it to become. It's quite amusing, really, that nearly every regular editor of this article has been accused at some point of being an obsessed Presley fan attempting to build a shrine to his memory, and yet it's those regular editors who are the most fair, balanced and open-minded people working on it. I really cannot understand how this article can be fair and balanced if when it is a little positive we get attacked for it, and if it is a little negative we get attacked for it. As Rikstar has suggested above, if you wish to improve the article, then it would be much more resourceful for you to put your energies into that rather than complaining about the current content. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 10:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's the lack of decency in this article that getting to me. There was a time when people would say,"Speak no ill of the departed." The reason for not speaking ill is that it demeans the speaker because the departed has no chance to defend himself. Every one of us has defects and has contemplated murder, but decent people don't go on and on about that fact after the subject is dead and gone. Elvis did his best, yet many here are trying to tear him to shreds. Even if Elvis' defects are worth dragging out of the closet, surely you should have the decency to explain (as rebuttal) why he was in such pain near the end of his life. The article presents him as a demented, immoral pervert (which we all are at heart), and let it go at that. You could make the same case against Abraham Lincoln, or John F Kennedy - but what's the point? They're all dead, and we only need to know how they overcame weakness, not the details of their weaknesses. We don't learn from studying peoples' defects; we learn from studying how they overcame their defects and did something great in the world. To dwell on defects and troubles only shows the editors as mean-minded gossips. Nothing useful is conveyed. As an encyclopedia article, it's nasty and useless.

Now let me suggest another direction: Elvis was born into a troubled and poor family. He overcame these handicaps with a strong faith. He continually acknowledged his faith, and sang publicly about it (why doesn't this article mention that?) He was grateful for his country and was willing to serve it. He was manipulated by clever people who took advantage of him. He found it difficult to live with celebrity isolation from his roots. His troubles culminated in his premature death. No gossipy details about how maybe he's Jewish, or his mother's addictions, or his father's scams, or how he died. Elvis has a heart-rending and sad story to tell, a story that's useful to future generations, but this article isn't even close. We all can learn much from his life story, but this article is simply annoying and mean. Bushcutter (talk) 07:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The myth surrounding his first public performance

In the article, an oft-told story is written as follows:

"On October 3, 1945, at age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show at the suggestion of his teacher Mrs. J.C. Grimes. Dressed as a cowboy, the young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He came second, winning $5 and a free ticket to all the Fair rides."

Jaye9 has done some digging amongst some good sources and it seems Elvis did not come second as is commonly believed and accepted. So this may have to be rewritten, or a note added. Rikstar (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for this being replaced if there is a decent enough reference for it. From what I gather, he may have come fifth, and even later on claimed to recall fifth place himself when questioned. I haven't ever seen any evidence to back up this claim, however, and that is perhaps why the myth is that he came second. If there's a good enough reference to back up these claims, then it should be added. If the reference is from a questionable source, however, it should be considered very carefully before being added. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

ElvisFan, Thank you so much for your response. I take you've read my comments on Rikstar's talk page and the points you've made are very valid and sensible. Okay here we go: what is cited in the article is from David Stanley? When I brought up the question of the myth of Elvis coming 2nd, it just got me bugged. The few sources I found seemed to show enough evidence for me to question the story, thats all. Granted, Bill Burk's books are self published. I think and alot people quite possibly don't know that out there and the video I saw only was released in 2008. There is the mention on it of Elvis wearing a cowboy outfit on stage, a friend of mind has loaned me boxes of Elvis books (I think my family's getting a little worried). However I have only seen two photo's of Elvis in a Cowboy Outfit, except for Television stint on Steve Allen Show I think by memory. The two photo's are 1.Thirteen-year-old Elvis in cowboy gear, not long before the Presley family moved to memphis (with mountain back drop and fence) prop source: Elvis Handbook by Tara McAdams 2. Photography taken of Elvis in September 1953, captures the young Presley in a moody pose with his cousin Gene Smith, both are dressed as cowboys. Source: The Official Collector's Edition Part 9.

The two photo's of Elvis at that fair show elvis in same trousers with suspenders (that hold the trousers up) and same shirt. It's just that I havn't seen a photo of him in a cowboy outfit when he was ten, not saying there isn't.

In regard to David Stanley :) I'm not saying his lying, far from it, he may be repeating something he has heard like so many others. Peter Gurlanick even says it, he is my favourite author, it has not swayed my opinion of him at all, for reasons I explained above, it just may have got missed. As I said to Rikstar, if anyone here believes there is insufficient evidence to mention this in the article or make a note, we'll just drop it. Thank you--Jaye9 (talk) 12:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey Jaye. I don't think it should be dropped, far from it. I think it's very interesting to find that it may just be a myth. As a fan of Elvis for over twenty years since the age of five myself, and having read many books and collected many films and books on him and I have come across the suggestion that he may have not come second, but I have never seen or read any evidence to properly support the claim. I think the fact there isn't a photograph of him at the fair is interesting too, as you would expect it to have made the local paper. It then raises the question of whether there is a photograph at all, even of the three winners who are supposed to have beaten Elvis? I've never seen such a photograph either. Of course, it must be noted that a lot of material from those days were not kept or archived the way that material today is. The two photo's you speak of, I've seen also, and are obviously not from the fair. I've never heard of the writer you speak of, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a well respected author and should be ignored. I think if he has a valid point to be made then it should possibly be included. I am, however, willing to accept the change because elvis.com states fifth place [1], That is enough for me to be happy for it to be changed. It's from the most reliable source we could possibly have, and therefore must accept it. If no one has any objections, I suggest we change it today. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey E, I shouldn't mention this but I've just come home from a party and I hardy ever drink,but I had a glass of wine with a cork in it,but I still have my facualties. I forgot to mention the Elvis On Tour out takes that Bill Burk talks about where Elvis mentions about possibly coming firth and that he wore glasses for a brief time in the fifth grade, I watched it on tuesday,I tell you this friend of mine has everything on him and it's obviously a bootleg,part of it has no sound,it's distorted in places,but Elvis does say these exact words. I must admit it was a little painfull to watch,as I like things done with quality,but I had to hear it for myself. I think Bill Burk's books are out of print now,I'm not sure and he passed away a little while back. However if you go on the internet you can order the the Elvis On Tour Out Takes and the Video Elvis-Return to Tupelo. The Elvis-Return to Tupelo is well worth watching.--Jaye9 (talk) 13:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I own the bootlegged Elvis on Tour Special Edition but haven't got round to watching yet. I also watched Return to Tupelo twice and found it fascinating. Will definitely be buying that when I am able to. It's hard to tell how serious Elvis was being without actually having seen him remark on it, but I'll try to have a look over the weekend. I think we should change it to fifth place, as it appears that it's the more accurate telling. Wherever the source for it has come from, it was good enough for EPE to change their records. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen or heard any first or second hand accounts that Elvis came second. Just third hand biographers accounts. From what Jaye9 has shown, some people who were actually there say he was fifth, and I don't think those people have a vested interest in lying about it. If EPE, who are used elsewhere in the article, say it's fifth because of their own research, I agree with ElvisFan that it should be changed, and EPE is cited. Go ahead and change it.Rikstar (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Rikstar exactly,

I read an interview on Peter Gurlanick and it was interesting, because when Gurlanick was interviewing Sam Phillips he said to him, don't trust anyone, follow your gut instinct and when I watched the Elvis-Return to Tupelo alot them never get interviewed and I carn't image the National Enquirer knocking on their door any time soon. They just seemed genuine, with nothing to gain. I've met DJ Fontana and Red and Pat West,spent a little time with them. I meam it was only a few weeks, you carn't really get to know people that much it that time, but the way they conducted themselves, if Presley was a quarter as a nice as they were, he's alright in my books--Jaye9 (talk) 14:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought, Jaye, after reading this, that YOU had met DJ and Red West, but I read it again... Rikstar (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes I have, Rikstar, it's a vague memory now,it was a few years ago. Very nice regular folks,as they say. Pat West likes the band AC/DC,you won't read that in a Presley book.--Jaye9 (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey ElvisFan, Just read elvis.com. Good Job! Gota go and make Christmas Cake and Pudding fun job,not. Will be back tommorrow.--Jaye9 (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Minor changes

I tried changinging from "commonly called by his first name" to "commonoly called "Elvis" in the lead, and removing his return "with acclaim" to just his return, and the subsequent word "thereafter" as unneeded wordage. It was reverted, but I would like to know actually why "thereafter" and "with acclaim" and the change to actually citing his first name was so quickly opposed. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello Collect. The main thing I noticed in your minor changes was that it read as follows: 'A cultural icon, he is commonly called "Elvis", and as the "King of Rock and Roll"', which doesn't read well. Presley made bad movies, then returned to good live performing. This is reflected in the article's opening summary by reference to poorly reviewed films and, by contrast, a well-received TV special, ie. the performance was acclaimed, and the citation given supports that view, just as the citation before it supports the fact that his films were badly reviewed. So I guess I reverted it to draw attention to why it was written that way in the first place. "Thereafter" could go arguably: maybe any such proposed minor changes could be posted and discussed here first if they are disputed. Any improvements would be welcome. Rikstar (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I consider "Commonly called "Elvis" to be pretty straightforward -- reverting it instead of removing "as" is not the way to get an article improved. Adverbial phrases which are not important to the factual content of an article are also quite unimportant. As for "badly reviewed" that is "opinion" and not fact (how are you to know whether the films were simply given their proper reviews, or were unfairly panned, which appears to be the reason for having "badly reviewed" in the text?) As for removing "thereafter" and "however" and the like -- they are non-controversial, and asking for a twenty line explanation for a ten character removal is absurd. I would ask that you do a self-revert and edit, as otherwie it appears you are asserting ownership of the article. Reverting minor edits is not the way to get other editors to assist in fixing an over-long article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith, and as such I will do a self-revert. I do not own this article, and never thought I did. Rikstar (talk) 20:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think that "commonly referred to by his first name" sounds better. I'll explain why. It's obvious that he was "commonly called Elvis", because that was his name. Also, I think it's interesting that he was one of the first acts in musical history to be recognised simply by his first name. How many others can you name from before or during his early career? I think that the impact of "commonly referred to by his first name only" explains that in a great way, and illustrates how important his name was. Frank? Dean? James? All these names mean nothing without the surnames. Elvis, however, has an immediate impact and I think the article definitely read and sounded better the way it originally was. Supposedly it's been changed because it saves "space" but as it only saves a few words, I don't think it's a dramatic difference. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Um -- last I looked, his first name was "Elvis" -- using the circumlocution of "first name" makes little sense. And he was not the first to be called by his first name, nor will he be the last. Look at "Aretha" and "Madonna" for example. Or "Bing" even. And I know some would like the article to be a paean to Elvis, but the purpose of WP is to make encyclopedia articles, not to have mini-shrines embedded in it <g>. Thanks. Collect (talk) 22:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say he was the first, I was emphasising how rare it was. There weren't many before his time who could be recognised by their first name in the music business, and I feel that the original sentence was an appropriate way of pointing out that fact. Bing is a good example, but Madonna and Aretha came after. I don't want this article to be a shrine to Elvis, far from it. I hope that it can be a well balanced article with good and bad points about the man. So far, every editor that I have experienced working on it has been open-minded enough to use both good and bad. I'm not going to argue with anyone over the opening paragraph and I am not pushing for it to be changed, I am merely stating my own opinion that I felt the way it was suited the article better. That is the purpose of the discussion page. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Enrico. Actually first names go back a long way for people who have reasonably unusual ones. <g> In any case, the aim is always improving the article, not fighting. Thanks. Collect (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I know plenty of 80+ years-olds who love Bing Crosby, and he has always been referred to by both names - rarely just "Bing", but many in the same care home will refer to "Elvis". Local anecdotal evidence maybe, but I don't think it's the exception. I've never heard in discussions about opera singers that someone loves "Enrico"; he's always "Caruso" or his full name is used. Having an unusual name is not the point here. I actually took a lot of stick when I changed "Elvis" (which a lot of editors used) to "Presley" to standardize things throughout this article; clearly a lot of people think he is and should be commonly referred to as Elvis - it is his moniker, not merely his first name. Are there editors of Crosby and Caruso filling their talkpages with requests to have their first names used throughout? A reference to all this was what was intended in the summary - a point made by ElvisFan1981.

The reference to "poorly reviewed" movies IS ambiguous; the majority of Presley films were critically panned, and that is what the summary is supposed to say - not that the reviews were unfair. This should be changed.

It would perhaps be more constructive if points like this were discussed without implying or assuming bias on the part of "Elvis fans": some of us editors have put up with a tiresome number of unfounded accusations of bias, whilst we have shown time and again that we have supported the balanced view, even putting in negative material that would make most "Elvis Worshippers" weep. Challenging an edit is one thing, but accusations, whether direct or implied, are quite another. Please, let's all assume good faith. Thanks in anticipation. Rikstar (talk) 09:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I surely did not mean to imply bias. I did mean to imply that the article is likely too long <g> and that sensible pruning would make it more readable. Collect (talk) 12:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Collect. My sincerest apologies for reverting your first edit; I am sure it was made with the best of intentions. I fully agree that sensible pruning is a real option: it has been attempted by editors before, including myself, but agreement has been difficult to achieve. I live in hope! Many thanks for your involvement with this article. Rikstar (talk) 20:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Songwriter?

Presley didn't write songs. Heslopian's recent edit needs reverting. Rikstar (talk) 09:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree on this. Presley did co-write at least one song I know of, and was a very good song arranger, but I think that calling him a singer-songwriter is a bit over the top because he's not someone I consider in that genre. The majority of the songs (50's) that Presley was credited with were for publishing reasons, at the recommendation (for want of a better word) of Col. Parker. I think that as an arranger he as far superior, and it's well documented about how much control he took over the production of the majority of his songs. If no one has any objections by the end of the day, or a good reason for why it shouldn't be reverted, then I'll take the step if no one has done so before hand. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I left a message for Heslopian asking him to revert his edit, but someone had to do it, so thanks! Rikstar (talk) 06:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Sprituality

This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans, including his exploration of Mormonism and possible baptism in the Mormon church, which is well documented in articles and even movies (http://blog.ldspad.com/2007/10/26/elvis-presley-mormon-king-of-rock-and-roll/). It is not not inline with Wikipedia's policies to suppress information like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.142.141 (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

"This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans".

It could just as easily be asserted that edits about Mormonism are an attempt to promote said church by including information in high profile articles from sources with vested interests. Neither argument assumes good faith, which is another wiki policy. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 01:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)"

->That's a foolish rebuttal. If something is factual, or debately factual, and releveant to the article, it properly belongs in the article. Material doesn't violate Wikipedia policy simply because one cross-segment of the population is interested in it, promotes it, or appreciates it, while another group is disinterested in it, and wants to suppress it. I propose the following statement be prepended to this article on the topic, which statement I think is fair, "Elvis Presley owned a Book of Mormon which he is known to have read, and which is marcated throughout in his own handwriting. The extent, or nature of, his interest in Mormonism is undetermined and debated."

Too many headlines

There are way too many useless headlines, therefore I am removing the ones 1. Havent been updated in a long time 2. Useless

You dont like what I am doing please tell me why you think that headline should stay on my talk page.--RafiCHAMP¹ 23:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafichamp (talk • contribs) 22:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

These "useless headlines" form part of every talk page eventually. They are the headings for topics of discussion. They are not to be removed at will, but archived when there are too many on a page, as on this one (they may be needed for future reference, especially regarding disputes). This talkpage already has 7 archives. More of it should be archived, but I'm not sure how to do it. Rikstar (talk) 13:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have archived most of this talkpage - see 'November 2008' in the list above. Rikstar (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's start over - new sandbox version proposed

Due to general feelings of dissatisfaction with the Elvis Presley main article, I have edited it down, but added much needed images, to half the size here: [2].

Everyone please note: this is not what I consider a finished piece; no version of it will please everyone; it has been a sincere attempt to cut bloat and editors should refrain from adding, or re-adding, extraneous stuff; I have not included links to all sub articles; it may contain errors, and anyone is free to suggest corrections.

And please, in the spirit of wikipedia, let's make all comments/criticism helpful, encouraging and positive! Times are hard for many of us and may get worse; if tapping a few keys to improve this article is a welcome source of relief or satisfaction for any of us, please, let's all support it! Happy New year. Rikstar (talk) 01:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I also think most of this talk page should be archived, but I haven't looked at how to do it yet. If anyone wants to volunteer... Rikstar (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I for one wholeheartedly support this and reading it recently has given me a much needed boost of renewed enthusiasm and hope of achieving a better understanding of Presley by avoiding the temptation to overhype his achievements or for that matter belittle him for his failings. Either way I believe detracts the reader from what your trying to say.

I recently discussed here on the talk page the myth surrounding his first public appearance. To the editor who corrected it to fifth place thank you,however the bit about the cowboy outfit is still there. I am only mentioning this as it doesn't exactley sit with me very well as the sources I used and the one user: Elvis Fan found with elvis.com all confer with the fifth placing,but mention nothing about the cowboy outfit,makes me wonder if it should stay in the article. Perhaps if we replaced it with "The talent show is broadcast over WELO Radio" Source: elvis.com and the other sources say this a well. Any thoughts? or am I being a little over the top here.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think what he wore is at all relevant, even it it is true. If it's not in the source, it should be cut. Rikstar (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

As you have omitted most of the criticism together with the personal life sections, you should rename the current sandbox version of the article. Perhaps "Elvis Presley's step-by-step development into a gospel-minded rock 'n' roll superstar" would now be a more appropriate title. Sorry, but in view of this new, "abridged" version, I am very happy with the long Wikipedia article as it stands. Onefortyone (talk) 00:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, last year there was a kind of consensus in favor of this relatively short version of the article's first section:

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17,1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development".

At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep".

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music.

In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You".

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail".

I support this version with the first reference provided above to back the statement of her drinking and Rikstar's additional of their elopement. Lara❤Love 01:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So do I - let's have some clear preferences noted on here!--Egghead06 (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur, absolutely, unequivocally. Except for the omission of the Johnny Burnette quote, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of this article's progress. Rikstar (talk) 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

These are clear statements. However, Rikstar may add the Burnette quote as he thinks it is "interesting and relevant."Onefortyone (talk) 15:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

However, nothing has happened. Onefortyone (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on.--Jaye9 (talk) 03:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting that 141 rates so highly a 'B' rated article about Presley; I wonder what changes he thinks will improve it. LaraLove bowed out of this discussion noting that 141 seemed to have an agenda; I am certainly not inclined to get involved in 141's established need to add negative content that many other editors have tired of criticizing, going back many months ago. As Jaye9 says: "Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on." Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 19:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

In order not to confuse issues, I propose that further discussion of the sandbox version should continue only on the talk page of the sandbox article. Thank you. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I complimented you there. The sandbox article is, in my opinion, a superior effort. Collect (talk) 21:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Questioning of sources

I'm questioning a couple of sources that have been used on the Main Page under the title "First recordings and performances". I'll do one at time,wait for a response and then move on to the next one if that's okay.

First being:where is says "(The DJ mispronounced Presley's apparently unusual name as "Elton Preston")[61] Source:Carr and Farren,p.6 My Response: It doesn't make sense to me,when the DJ being Dewey Phillip's could get it wrong, and with such another uncommen name such as Elton and after reading what Jerry Hopkins wrote,who makes no mention of this error, makes it more unbelievable,as Dewey already knew Sam Phillips before he even intervieved Elvis on radio,here's a except from his book about that interview and the playing of the record.(Sorry it's a bit long)

"He was a tall wavy-haired man with a soft voice,a bit of a paunch,a ready grin,and sitting in his shirtsleeved listening to his friend Sam,and then to Elvis's record,he said yes,he liked it too,and he'd sure give it a spin".

"The night Dewey played the record,Elvis tuned the family radio to WHBQ and ran to his favourite escape,the Suzore No.2 theatre. His parents said later he was so nervous,or shy,to be where he might hear his own record. Elvis probably didn't remember which film he was watching that night,because his parents walked the ailes to find him before the movie was over. Dewey had played the record,the listners had began to call in their enthusiastic reaction. Dewey played it again and again,an now he wanted to interview Elvis on the air".

Not long before he died,Dewey told what happened during that interview.

"Elvis arrived out of breath and Dewey said,"Sit down,I'm gone interview you." And according to Dewey,Elvis said, "Mr.Phillips,I don't know nothing about being interviewed."

"Just don't say nothing dirty,'Dewey said back. "He sat down and I said I'd let him know when we were ready to start,' Dewey recalled. "I had a couple of records cued up,and while they played,we talked. I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p.47 & p.48--Jaye9 (talk) 02:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to lose the "Elton Preston" anecdote; there's already another reference to him having a funny name. I'll remove the Carr & Farren quote. Rikstar (talk) 10:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I've done so, and I've also rewritten this bit using Hopkins as the main source. Rikstar (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this next one reminds me of how difficult it all is when researching on Presley. On the Main Page Titled:"First recording and performances" were it says. "That's All Right" was aired on July 8,1954,by DJ Dewey Phillips".[61]b Source:Carr and Farren,p6

I checked the date out and got two different ones:

10 July 1954: Dewey Phillips plays That's All Right,Mama on WHBQ radio,Memphis Tennessee. Source:www.elvis.com/topic/deweyphillips

Here's what Elaine Dundy had to say: "On Monday night of 5th July,while fooling aroung during a break in the session,Sam's search for his elusive sound finally came to fruition with Elvis singing "That's All Right{Mama)."

"Just two days after,on Wednesday,Sam's old friend and ex-partner Dewey Phillips played "That's All Right{Mama}'on his popular evening WHBQ radio program. Source: "Elvis and Gladys" by Elaine Dundy p.89

I'm no Elvis expert,but I'd go with Elaine Dundy because of her endepth study on Presley alone.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So that's July 7? Fine with me. I did check, and July 7 was a Wednesday. I'll change this if no one disagrees. Rikstar (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have updated the sandbox version to included the existing footnotes. Some of these (in red) need reformatting, or removing. The Notes may need amending too. The sandbox article is 100 kilobytes long, the current B-rated article is 142 kilobytes, and contains fewer images. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Made some more changes, generally to shorten it; notable ones are described in history. I'm trying to cut anything, but if it is significant, it can probably go in an existing linked sub article. I know people are reading this, and I am conscious that I don't want to create re-reading work for you all.

I also am not sure where we stand in using this version, even if current editors feel it forms a better article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 00:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

"I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p.47 & p.48" So, did he also say that he asked this question so that people would know Elvis wasn't black? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Steve, see my response to your question above on the Usertalk:Rikstar/Sandbox re:sandbox version,hope this will help you with your question.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

According to Guralnick (1994), page 373, the first of the two concerts he performed at the 1956 Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show was policed by 40 police and highway patrolmen. 50, not 100, National Guardsmen were added for the evening show. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Elvis art - portrait likeness sculpture, bust, figure of elvis

Welcome to: http://www.elvis-art.spb.ru/Main.html You must see this!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ElvisSculptureART (talk • contribs) 15:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Very nice, in that kitchyElvis sort of way, but it doesn't have a whole load to do with how to improve the Presley main article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 16:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Racism

Should there not be some mention of Elvis's documented racism somewhere in this article?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 08:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article, notably the fifth paragraph of Controversy and Cultural Impact? Do you have any references to the "documented" racism of Elvis you refer to? Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of Controversy and Cultural Impact, which I just reviewed... it is significant, I think, that by 1960, Sinatra appeared with Elvis in the Welcome Home special, and should perhaps be added to show how Elvis became accepted over time (and only 4 years at that!). Also, seems to me, and I've brought this up before, whatever black/white confusion there was initially, it didn't keep a number of records from selling well in the South, or Elvis generating large, enthusiastic crowds. ie that is clearly an overstatement of any influence there was. Again, I've brought this up before, don't think it's a big thing, but DO think it would make things more objective to make those changes.Steve Pastor (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

In the hundred or so books I've read on Elvis, not once did I ever here of Elvis being racist in anyway. The definition of racism is the oppression of someone because of race that is manifested in a physical manner such as, violence, suppression of job and housing availability etc. Elvis is documented in many instances to be just the opposite. And just to clarify, using the word "nigger" may show bigotry or prejudice but it is in no way by definition "racist". If anyone has documented instances of Elvis being "racist", please post it here.

The above comment has not been made by me,I think someone has forgotten to sign in perhaps. I really don't know how to respond to this,if only to say it's a very touchy subject indeed. Not so much involving Presley,I have my views on that,but the subject itself,if feels like a no win situation indeed.

I do believe however,it is fairly covered in the article as it stands.

If anyone cares to,type in: was elvis a racist? by Lee Dawson,then click on Elvis Presley was no racist. It pretty well sums how I feel about it. Interestingly,you'll notice a really nice photo of Myrna Smith & Elvis Presley and ask yourself,does that look like someone who's racist? If so,he's a better actor then I ever thought he was.--Jaye9 (talk) 03:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

We already had this discussion. For relevant quotes, see, for instance Talk:Elvis Presley/archive11. Onefortyone (talk) 19:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

New video about Elvis

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4101376482992264027

I have put the postcard in this video for sale on Ebay. I think this video by Al Robinson has historic value to Elvis fans. Bobby Walker 64.149.19.105 (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Interests

It would be real interesting to have a section that describes Elvis's interests and hobbies. We all know that Elvis loved cars and had an interest in comic books. As for sports, Elvis loved football and boxing. Elvis was, in fact, friends with Muhammad Ali. Ali gave Elvis a pair of signed boxing gloves and Elvis gave Ali a boxing robe to walk to the ring with (not sure if he ever wore it though). Here is an example of something that could go in the interest section:

Elvis was a huge football fan and it was his favorite sport. According to childhood friend Jerry Schilling, Elvis would play pickup football games every Sunday at Guthrie Park located in North Memphis, Tennessee during the mid-to-late 1950s until he got too famous to play without attracting a large crowd. Elvis is even said to have brought Natalie Wood to the games on the back of his motorcycle so she could watch. Elvis was a fan of the Cleveland Browns mainly because his favorite player was Browns' Hall of Fame running back Jim Brown. Schilling said Elvis would imitate Jim Brown's walk back to the huddle. Elvis played these pickup football games with the likes of Ricky Nelson, Pat Boone, Johnny Rivers, and Red West. Nelson some Sundays would actually recruit friends from the football teams of the Los Angeles Rams, UCLA Bruins, and USC Trojans to play on his team against Elvis. As for what position Elvis played, Schilling described Elvis as being "more of a quarterback."

Here is my citation:

Schilling, Jerry. Interview. The George Klein Show. Sirius XM Radio. Elvis Radio, Memphis. 30 Jan. 2009. --Akhosrof (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ali did wear the robe that Elvis gave to him, but only once. He lost that fight and saw the robe as a bad omen. I'm not sure if a section about his interests would be right for the article, perhaps it would feel too trivial? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it does feel trivial. However, so does Elvis's meeting with the Beatles. That seems a little out of place with the rest of the article as well. These things are all trivial, but interesting nonetheless. I guess the point is, when I come to Wikipedia, I want to have the option of learning as much as possible about a certain topic. Maybe this article is not the best place for Elvis's interests, but it probably should have some place on this site. I do understand though that this is a very low priority in relation to the rest of the work that needs to be done on the article. --Akhosrof (talk) 04:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the Beatles bit, like his interests, favorite foods, sexual conquestss, detail about his parents, etc., etc., are of interest, but it is also trivial or less relevant than other information about Presley. I have amended the article accordingly here [3]. There is a good case for including these less serious/relevant aspects of Presley's life in wikipedia, but I think they should be included in existing - or newly created - related articles. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 08:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Article's ending

Two quotes were chosen to sum up Presley's life to provide a fitting end to the article, namely:

Paul F. Campos has written: "The Elvis cult touches on so many crucial nerves of American popular culture: the ascent of a workingclass boy from the most obscure backwater to international fame and fortune; the white man with the soul of black music in his voice; the performer whose music tied together the main strands of American folk music – country, rhythm and blues, and gospel; and, perhaps most compellingly for a weight-obsessed nation, the sexiest man in America's gradual transformation into a fat, sweating parody of his former self, straining the bounds of a jewel-encrusted bodysuit on a Las Vegas stage. The images of fat Elvis and thin Elvis live together in the popular imagination." The singer continues to be imitated—and parodied—outside the main music industry and Presley songs remain very popular on the karaoke circuit. People from a diversity of cultures and backgrounds work as Elvis impersonators ("the raw 1950s Elvis and the kitschy 1970s Elvis are the favorites.")

In 2002, it was observed:

For those too young to have experienced Elvis Presley in his prime, today’s celebration of the 25th anniversary of his death must seem peculiar. All the talentless impersonators and appalling black velvet paintings on display can make him seem little more than a perverse and distant memory. But before Elvis was camp, he was its opposite: a genuine cultural force... Elvis’s breakthroughs are underappreciated because in this rock-and-roll age, his hard-rocking music and sultry style have triumphed so completely.

— The New York Times

The following has now been added:

Also in the same year, rapper Eminem mentioned his name on his song Without Me from The Eminem Show album and the lyrics goes Though I'm not the first king of controversy/I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley/To do Black music so selfishly.

This may warrant a mention, but it does not end the article well, and begs the question: why this song lyric quote? Why not mention that Kirsty McColl wrote there's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis? Or that Marc Cohn saw the ghost of Elvis on Union Avenue? If Eminem's quote is just another 'reminder' (yawn) that "Elvis stole Black music", this is already covered in the article. I think it should be deleted or moved elsewhere. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Just an observation

I've been racking my brains as to why I think the Presley article remains B class. As I ask myself this question,is it just the length,or are there other issues going on here?

I believe the Elvis sandbox version is heading in a positive direction,as most people seem to be happy with this version as well.

Rikstar has mentioned that he has looked at the Judy Garland article,of which I have since had a look at,as well as the John Lennon article. Judy Garland being a FA article and John Lennon is a GA article.

My interest in these two article was one,to compere them with the Presley article,to see what may be wrong with the Presley article and two ,the fact that my uncle had toured with the Beatles during their Australian and New Zealand Tour back in 1964,as well as Judy Garland. I'm pointing this out,only to say that he never spoke ill of these people,both during and after his association with them. Quite frankly,he never spoke much about them at all.

Getting back to the Presley article,there is an editor who is not happy with the sandbox version,as it omits most of the criticism and the Relationships on Presley.

I for one believe in constructive criticism. Both the Lennon and Garland articles have achieved this quite well. With a better understanding of these two artists. However,I don't feel the same way with the Presley article. When I say some of the criticism are just plain BITCHY.

Next one Relationships. I do like the way the Lennon Relationships is set out,concertrating only on the women who were important to the singer,not one month flings etc as presented in the Presley article.

Joe Espositoe mentions along with other Presley associates,that Presley had many affairs and one night stands,as has been said in books written on Lennon. Do we really need to go on about it,the Lennon article doesn't.

However Espositoe and Presley associates do agree when they say,there were only a few - Anita Wood,Priscilla,Ann Margaret,Linda Thompson,Sheila Ryan and Barbara Leigh - really meant anything to him.

Perhaps,if we do have a relationship section,that we mention these people,much more appropriate for a general encyclopedia type article. Lets leave the Elvis the the nasty with Cybill Shepherd type stories,to the likes of Entertainment Tonight type shows,could we.--Jaye9 (talk) 05:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The majority of us who have been kicking around this subject (sometimes only fitfully) agree with you. And we have been agreeing for how long now? couple of years? Steve Pastor (talk) 20:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

scientology

With the Presleys being a notable Scientology family, i find it interesting that there is no mention of this in the article. If Elvis was a Scientologist then it should be noted, if not then it should at least be mentioned that the family joined the cult^H^H^H^H religion after his death.