Talk:European Union

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FYROM in blue

This is really insubstantial but is there a reason that FYROM appears in blue letters while all the other countries appear in black? Or is it just a flaw of the map? Alfadog777 (talk) 00:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Good observation! However, it should not be black like the other EU member states but grey like the other non-EU member states. I will try to fix it... Tomeasy _{T C} 09:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Hm, I have just fixed the map without really understanding what was wrong. Now the template page displays the map as desired, but on our article it appears still with this little flaw. Apparently, I do not understand enough of this. Perhaps someone else can fix it. However, I would be interested in understanding the error and the solution, once the problem is solved. Tomeasy _{T C} 10:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it's fixed now. I deleted the map and just re-inserted it again. Without doing so, apparently, the updated version of the template is not used immediately. If someone knows more about it, please share. Also, I did not understand my own fix on the template page. Tomeasy _{T C} 10:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I suspect a caching problem: your change to the remplate forced the displayed image on the template page to update; without any change to this page the article still used the old GIF. Your change to this page forced the displayed image to update here. Just a guess, though - caching is a good scape-goat for all kinds of problems ;-) Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 10:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done

Montenegro

Montenegro is a sovereign country. Its official currency is whatever the government of Montenegro chooses it to be. The government of Montenegro has chosen to adopt the Euro as the currency of Montenegro. There is nothing unofficial about that. The EU has actually criticised Montenegro for officially using the Euro because the EU's position is that only the 27 member states of the EU SHOULD be using the Euro as their official currency. They don't deny that Montenegro IS officially using it, because Montenegro clearly is officially using it. In fact their whole objection is that Montenegro is OFFICIALLY using it. The CIA World factbook notes that Montenegro now uses "the euro instead of the Yugoslav dinar as official currency". Yes, their word,"official". Even Wikipedia's own article on the Euro manages to note that Montenegro uses the Euro as its sole currency without feeling the need to claim that it is only "unofficial". This should be totally uncontroversial. Please stop returning to this article the fabrication that Montenegro uses this currency only unofficially. It doesn't. The Euro is the official currency of Montenegro. Thank you. 87.254.80.49 (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It is unofficial from the perspective of the European Union as there is no formal agreement concerning its use. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 23:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Even assuming that it was appropriate to adopt the POV of the EU, I've cited sources for its official status. You haven't even cited anyone supporting your claim that the EU says otherwise. 87.254.80.49 (talk) 23:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Let's not confuse the matter. The Euro is the official coin of the EU. Only EU countries are allowed to coin Euros (with some micro states as treaty agreed exceptions). Some other countries (again mainly microstates) have adopted the Euro after an official agreement with the ECB.

However, I think anon 87.... has a point when he says that any country is free to adopt its own way of payin, being it local currency, gold, seashells or Euro's. Of course such a country cannot claim any influence in any decisions about the value of the Euro and cannot mint them but that something else entirely.

It may also be that for international politicial agreements they are not allowed to mmake it their national currency; but I don't think official use of any currecncy when making no other claims about that currency can be disallowed. (maybe wrong there but would need to see a strong argument on that)

As it stands now the paragraph is however misleading:

The euro, and the monetary policies of those who have adopted it, are under the control of the European Central Bank (ECB).[108] There are twelve other currencies used in the EU.[92

As it implies the Macedonian Montenegro monetary policy is under ECB control. It is not. Arnoutf (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you say. I'm not sure whether you meant Montenegro instead of Macedonia or if that bit went out of my depth. 87.254.80.49 (talk) 00:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that we need to say that the currency is official BTW, I don't think it's that important to this article, what I was objecting to was the statement that its use was unofficial - which was misleading at best. 87.254.80.49 (talk) 00:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough; I think my revision should clear up the problem (sorry for the typo, have been on holiday to Macedonia, so that popped up in my mind when typing) Arnoutf (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That looks good to me. Thank you for your time on this. 87.254.80.49 (talk) 00:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Nato citation non sense.

EU is not linked to Nato formally.Many countries are neutral.Why did you write about Nato in EU presentation?You want to set Nato in a contest where officially isn't shared by all EU states.You set Nato like salt in the kitchen,everywhere. A non sense mix. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.60.116.129 (talk) 03:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Berlin Plus agreement--217.112.178.72 (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The fact of Nato has agreement with EU can't be set in the presentation of EU where the whole will is based only on all the states, also the neutral ones.EU has agreements also with Russia ,why don't you write also Russia there? A lot of confusion.Nato isn't relevant in the presentation of EU (and in the treaties is under EU).The Nato sentence because of non sense must be cancelled.Thank YOU.It's ridiculous otherwise!If somebody replies make smile!

Citation needed?

"The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states". Should there not be a reference for this opening sentence? Specifically as to how many member states there currently are? --Stenun (talk) 02:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It's referenced further down, and I think this fact is trivial enough that WP:LEAD#Citations doesn't require an extra citation in the lead. —JAO • T • C 08:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Given that the number is ever growing and that the change in membership is not always reported all over the globe, I am not so sure that this doesn't need (just one) citation. If it was a fixed number or a well known number then I would agree but it is steadily increasing. --Stenun (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I really think given the fact that the information is easily accessed elsewhere on the page, a citation here is unnecessary. --Simonski (talk) 17:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Animation of member states

The current animation showing which states joined when is currently very fast - any way of slowing it down a bit? Hadrian89 (talk) 14:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

EU production of primary energy

Sources of uranium delivered to EU utilities in 2007, from the [http://ec.europa.eu/euratom/ar/last.pdf 2007 Annual report

From Uranium mining#Europe "European uranium mining supplied just below 3% of the total EU needs". I don't think this is "EU primary production" since EU imports 97% of it's uranium. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.112.178.172 (talk) 14:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

There appears to be a convention for nuclear energy and renewable energy that the (tradable) result of the conversion process (rather than uranium or wind, for instance) is treated as primary energy. Since this affects conclusions about energy independence, it might be a good idea to mention it somewhere.--Boson (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That is really weird as Uranium imports (vs those of wind) are not free; i.e. the wind in the EU can be considered a resource to be mined even if orginating elsewhere, we have to pay for Uranium. We need to have a reliable reference stating that this is indeed the case for nuclear power.

In any case the table is misleading as it appear Nuclear power is the most important power source in the EU (top of list). However it is only about 14% (29% of 46%) while oil is about 35% (9% of 46% + 60% of 54%).

Also it is not clear whether petrol (cars!!) is included in the primary energy list, if this is not the case nuclear power would be even smaller). Arnoutf (talk) 16:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand that it means total energy. The treatment of Nuclear energy numbers seem politically motivated. What kind of definition is that for primary energy? And why only nuclear? WTF? In any case the table needs a change.--217.112.177.195 (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Surely if it's energy produced it'll exclude cars? I read "production of energy" to mean converting wind, oil, etc into electricity. I could possibly accept a high value for nuclear: France's electricity production is 78.1% nuclear, for example. It looks to me like nuclear "benefits from a split vote": 29.3% isn't high, compared to all other forms combined, but it's higher than any one other source of energy. Consider that Germany, say, will largely use coal, Britain will largely use gas, other countries may import oil to generate energy, etc. Regardless, the table needs to be clearer and much less confusing - this discussion is testament to the table being unclear ;-) Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 17:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

It does not say "electricity" it does say "energy". Cars need energy - which has to come from somewhere. Whether it is included or excluded is unclear (I don't mind either as long as I know which it is).

Also the tables do not state 29.3% is nuclear. It does say that (only) 29.3 of the primary energy fomr the EU is nuclear (which makes up for about 14% of all used primary energy sources). So again, from "this flag once was red"s comment it is obvious the table is unclear. Arnoutf (talk) 18:47, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the convention seems to be usually stated "between the lines", as here: here

"Primary energy - refers to the basic forms of fuel and energy. These are the commercially traded forms of energy such as coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear energy and hydroelectricity." ("oil" but not "uranium"). You can see what they are doing from the monthly statistics here. Nuclear energy and renewable energy are given as electricity in GWh and heat in terajoule. I think the problem is that, for calculating percentages, the amount of energy is normally quantified as toe (tons of oil equivalent); with gas etc. the amount of energy extracted is known approximately, but with nuclear energy it depends on the process (breeder etc.); I suppose the total energy contained in a kg of nuclear fuel could be defined by E=mc², but that would not be very useful. So for nuclear energy (and wind, solar, etc.) it is not sensible to talk about production until electricity is produced. That means that the statistics have to be treated with some caution. I am still looking for a suitable reference. This discusses some of the problems, but it's not very pithy. One source is http://www.eoearth.org/article/Primary_energy

At least two conventions for measuring non-fossil fuel primary energy have been adopted by the energy forecasting community for renewable energy and nuclear power generation:

1. the output of the conversion technology is assumed to be the primary energy, which implicitly assumes a energy conversion efficiency of 100%, or,

2. an average fossil fuel conversion factor is assumed and used to back calculate an equivalent fossil energy primary equivalent (e.g., kwh or Btu’s). Each method has shortcomings, but the convention does make it convenient to incorporate non-fossil sources into energy system models.

--Boson (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Between the line is a difficult issue that needs at least discussion.... And even in your listing a tradable form of nuclear energy could include reactor grade uranium (or plutonium) and in the future hydrogen (if we ever get fusion going). (BTW if using E=mc2 you would nead to use the weight loss if going from uranium to rest product as the m (not the complete weight of uranium))

By the way this source [1] used in Wikipedias Primary energy explicitly! mentions uranium as a primary energy source. Arnoutf (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

NINETY-SEVEN % of uranium is imported, nuclear should be moved in Net imports. Measuring electricity out put is just a scheme to make comparisons meaningful, Uranium is still primary and electricity secondary, in this universe at least. In this context, saying that because imported Uranium is consumed inside the EU, it makes it somehow a primary EU production is insane. The table is supposed to show external dependence.--217.112.177.170 (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

They are not saying it is primary EU production because the uranium is consumed in the EU; they are saying it is primary energy production because the energy (heat) is produced in a reactor in the EU, and they count nuclear energy rather than uranium as primary. Similarly they look at where the windmill is, not where the wind comes from. Whether any conclusions drawn about energy dependence are insane is a different matter.--Boson (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This might be a better source for how the EU quantifies primary energy production:

Primary Energy Production: . . .
Crude oil:
Quantities of fuels extracted or produced within national boundaries, including off-shore production. Production includes only marketable production, and excludes any quantities returned to formation. Production includes all crude oil, natural gas liquids (NGL), condensates and oil from shale and tar sands, etc. . . .

Nuclear heat: Quantities of heat produced in a reactor. Production is the actual heat produced or the heat calculated on the basis of the gross electricity generated and the thermal efficiency of the nuclear plant.
Hydropower, Wind energy, Solar photovoltaic energy:
Quantities of electricity generated. Production is calculated on the basis of the gross electricity generated and a conversion factor of 3600 kJ/kWh.

Uranium is not listed as a primary energy source. This makes it clear that, as far as EU energy production statistics are concerned, primary energy in the form of nuclear energy is produced in the reactor, not where the uranium is dug out of the ground.

The Eurostat source used in the article actually clearly defines how energy dependence is calculated, and it is obviously based on the definition of primary energy, as quoted above. So we have to be careful not to draw our own conclusions about energy dependence based on a different definition, unless we can find appropriate sources.--Boson (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying but still think it is a weird decision by Eurostat to do it that way as you could also name the heat generated in a coal power plant the primary energy.... This has probably something to do with the pro-nuclear industry argument that nuclear power will make EU less dependent on foreign nations..... But that is speculation; so in the absense of a good source saying otherwise we will have to live with it.

I would like to have a footnote with nuclear power stating something like "Eurostat classifies the location of the nuclear heat source as the primary resource in nuclear power, regardless of the origin of the original fuel" or something like that; if alone to prevent the type of confusion we are having in this discussion among readers.

PS does anybdy know why this thread (and this thread alone) always freezes my Firefox browser (I am typing this in internet explorer). Arnoutf (talk) 10:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(Aside: I don't buy the alleged pro-nuclear industry argument: uranium has to be obtained somehow and the pie-chart above shows Russia, Australia, et al - all outside the EU. I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way, but with the industry if that's what it's trying to argue).

Re: a footnote. Agree, definitely. One thing this thread has high-lighted to me is that the table as it currently stands is confusing. Obviously we should be citing reliable sources (like Eurostat), but we should be explaining exactly how those sources arrive at their conclusions.

Re: Firefox: I'm not seeing any problem with this thread (FF 3.0.6, Windows XP SP3), but I have to add that Firefox seems to be acting up slightly for me recently - not nearly enough for me to need to use IE, though.

Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 10:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The Reality

Concerning work. Citizens of countries are meant to be able to up sticks and go to any region they choose to find work. In fact the EU framework is designed with this in mind. Fluid movement of people, one market. The reality is that most of the populations of respective countries do not wish to leave to a foreign country and culture to find employment. Family, culture, language and identity amongst many socio-economic factors are too strong a pull for this to happen. Push factors are the cause for immigration into England for the most part. Lack of work in Eastern Europe and the poorer member states. Perceived opportunity in the UK. This is causing discontent amongst the poorer uneducated mainly working class in the UK, who for the most part won't leave their own country (and why should they)to find work. Where will they go? To be displaced and poor in another country doesn't make sense. Most people have not understood and have not been told what the reality of Europe and the implications of an EU supra entity mean in real terms for them. I was quite clearly told these whilst studying at college. How many people actually understand that (as a uk Government minister Peter Mandelson recently pointed out during widespread protests about foreign workers taking UK jobs) they are expected now to find work in all parts of Europe. It didn't go down well and points to the lack of information that the person in the street has been given regarding this political and economic union, and the implications of it. It has meant poor uneducated Eastern Europeans and others arriving on our shores and competing at lower wages with our poor uneducated workers. The middle classes seem less affected as perhaps this class group are more able to adapt or do not have to leave their respective countries. Europe is not understood properly and seems like it is being pushed on people. They can't be blamed for ignorance and therefore not consulted for their opinion when they have not been informed in the first place. Has democracy now been quietly dropped? What other bombshells are we to expect (see Mandelsons above) from our(?) ministers about other things, said as if we were all supposed to know in the first place? To put it bluntly, this stinks of vested interests and politics at it's worst. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.7.9 (talk) 23:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, all well and good...but what point are you trying to make about the Wiki EU article? This is not a forum for general discussion/debate (there are plenty of those on the internet), it is for discussing issues with the EU article. Lwxrm (talk) 09:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)