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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 212.14.141.113 (talk) at 11:36, 27 March 2009 (→‎Bored of "e-jihad": new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleZoroastrianism has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 16, 2006Good article nomineeListed

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The reference for Zoroastrianism as statist

I find the claims introduced by this edit very likely and reasonable. I was interested, so I searched for more details related to these publications. The problem is that googling and searching on google books does not produce any non-wiki hits for the title of the article cited, for the title of the book, or for the names of the editor and the author as scholars of Zoroastrianism or religion in general. This is pretty unusual for a mainstream scholarly publication. I have come across fake references (to non-existing publications) previously, so I have some doubts about this case.--Anonymous44 (talk) 22:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with your findings. Moreover, the url being cited is for an article titled "The Evils of Christianization: A Pagan Perspective on European History", and in which the words "Zoroastrianism" (or variants) and "Sassanian" (or variants) do not even occur.
Even so, the claims made by that inserted paragraph are not reasonable at all.
  • No religion can hope to survive if were to discourage "Loyalty to the state". Zoroastrianism is not special in this regard. Indeed, Zoroastrianism has itself no doctrinal identification with the *state* at all. This must be distinguished from *nation* -- the Iranian *nation* was not a *state* until the Sassanians made it so.
  • Zoroastrianism was not "particularly statist" in relation to other religions. *All* surviving religions were at some point state-sponsored. Heck, there would have been no Mayflower pilgrims or "Church of England" if England had not been "particularly statist". Nor would there be Islamic law in the countries of the Middle East if these were not "particularly statist". Closer to the point, the Zoroastrians would (probably) not have migrated to India if the Caliphate (note the name) had not been "particularly statist".
  • The identification of rule with religion is equally universal, e.g. in the notion of divine empowerment as a legitimation of rule. Greek tyche baileos, Latin fortuna regia, Chinese tianming all express the same idea and were invoked long before the Sassanians came along and invoked khvarenah. Babylo-Akkadian and Egyptian rulers were "god kings" long before there was even such a thing as Zoroastrianism, leave alone Sassanians.
During Sassanid times Iranian *national* identity was used as a justification for imperial aspirations. Religion was only one aspect (albeit a crucial one) of this identity. Moreover, the Sassanid-era nationalism has to be understood in the context of the preceding five centuries of Hellenistic influence, the "corruptions" of which the Sassanians declared themselves to be in opposition to, and which they defined as their mission to get rid off. The uniquely Iranian Zoroastrianism fits into this picture, and the nationalistic (not "statist") Iranian (not "Persian") nature of Zoroastrianism was (next to language) the significant unifying factor among the multitude of Iranian tribes. This is presumably what the source meant. The editor's portrayal of "Loyalty to the state" as a "characteristic" of Zoroastrianism is false. That Zoroastrianism is "particularly statist" is also false. The Zoroastrian concept of an "Iranian glory" is inherently nationalistic, but not statist and not bound to any time frame or political entity.
Assuming the paragraph were corrected (and the source was properly cited), a description of Sassanian-era religion belongs under "History" and not under "Characteristics".
-- Fullstop (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I do believe that some religions are much more inherently statist than others but I won't argue here. BTW, the online Iranica article on Zoroastrianism has a similar argument regarding Sassanid times and even tries to explain the conversion to Islam by it. Since that is an available source, maybe the current claim should be replaced with a paraphrase of the Iranica argument. I don't feel like doing it, though. It does seem kind of misleading to make such a statement specifically for Zoroastrianism, since I'm sure that the Islam, Judaism and Christianity articles don't discuss their "statism".--Anonymous44 (talk) 16:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

this religion is tight —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.151.95 (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

130,000

Regarding the figure of 130,000 practitioners in total, can't it be added somewhere else as the total amount of practitioners all over the world? --Enric Naval (talk) 16:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There used to be citations in the "Demographics" section, but somehow those vanished and the only one now there is some lame link to a newspaper article. The previously cited sources were...
  • Eliade, Mircea; Couliano, Ioan, eds. (1991), "Zoroastrianism", The Eliade Guide to World Religions, San Francisco: Harper Collins, p. 254, ISBN 0-06-062145-1.
  • Melton; Baumann, Martin, eds. (2002), "Zoroastrianism", Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices, Oxford: ABC-CLIO, p. 634, ISBN 1-57607-223-1 {{citation}}: |first= missing |last= (help).
These two plus the next one are cited elsewhere on WP...
  • Hopfe, Lews M.; Woodward, Mark R., eds. (2003), "Zoroastrianism", Religions of the World: Media And Research Update, New York: Prentice Hall, p. 313, ISBN 0-13-183007-4.
Hopfe & Woodward is required reading at some universities, but the article on Zoroastrianism is quite bad (more precisely: it reads like it were based on 19th century sources, even terminologically). These three sources (Eliade, Melton/Baumann, Hopfe/Woodward) and an earlier edition of the "130,000" Fisher book also appear at adherents.com. The citation for the Fisher book used by the diff would be:
  • Fisher, Mary Pat (1996), Living Religions: An Encyclopaedia of the World's Faiths, London: I B Tauris, p. 214, ISBN 1-86064-148-2.
    "Few followers remain of this ancient way of combating evil with goodness. There are thought to be only about 130,000 living Zoroastrians."
Although that book has a remarkably good section on Zoroastrianism (in contrast to most encyclopedias), I'd prefer not to use it if it can be helped. Like most general-audience encyclopedias, it has no sources.
Reliable sources include:
  • Boyce, Mary (1979), Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, p. 226, ISBN 0-7100-0121-5.
    ..."total of 129,000 souls, with 82,000 in India, 5000 in Pakistan, and 500 in Ceylon; 25,000 in Iran (of whom about 19,000 [in 1976] lived in Tehran); 3000 apiece in Britain, Canada and the USA, and 200 in Australia. There are also small groups still in Hong Kong and Singapore."
  • Palsetia, Jesse S. (2001), The Parsis of India, Leiden: Brill, p. 1, 1 n. 1, ISBN 90-04-12114-5.
    "Parsis presently number approximately 110,000 individuals worldwide [, of which India per Census 1981, X] 71,630; [Per Hinnells] Britain, 5,000; USA, 6,500; Canada, 4,500; Australia, 300; Pakistan, 3,000; Hong Kong, 150; Kenya 80; [Per Amighi] Iran 20,000 [but] estimates based on official statistics places the population [Z in Iran] at 50,000 individuals out of a world Zoroastrian population of 150,000 [more refs]"
  • Hinnells, John R. (2005), The Zoroastrian Diaspora: Religion and Migration, Oxford University Press, p. 6, ISBN 0-19-826759-2.
    "[Iranian sources] claim that there are more than 100,000 in the mother country. [Parsis worldwide number] 100,000 to 120,000"
These three are authoritative. -- Fullstop (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fullstops numbers only counts parsees and not all Zoraoastrians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.47.43 (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. Each provided quotation says precisely what it is for. In Fischer's case total Zoroastrians, and the others have numbers for both Parsis and for non-Parsis. -- Fullstop (talk) 23:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica Info

--Xenovatis (talk) 16:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Role of Women in Zoroastrianism

There is not a single article or paragraph that talks about the role of women in the religion. I think there should at least be a paragraph on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.180.134 (talk) 10:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Priesthood

Could we have an account of the Zoroastrian priesthood? According to what I read long ago in my student years, there are three grades, dastur which seemed comparable to a Christian bishop, mobed which seemed comparable to a priest, and herbad or ervad which seemed comparable to a deacon. J S Ayer (talk) 02:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

apparent solecisms

The remark "Zoroastrianism rejects all forms of monasticism" does not seem to make sense. Does it mean that solitary life is disapproved of? If so, (i) it needs to be made clearer and (ii) the term is not "monasticism" ("eremiticism"?). Could it please be explained or omitted? 81.151.221.255 (talk) 07:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The remark "This calendar is still used today, a fact that is attributed to the Achaemenid period" is clearly wrong (what happened in the Achaemenid period cannot be directly responsible for the fact that something has continued in use for 2500 years). Deipnosophista (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bored of "e-jihad"

Can be still be considered a "good" article?