Talk:Heavy metal music

Reliable sources?

I apologise if this question is in the wrong place, but I couldn't find a more appropriate one (Wikipedia is still a little confusing to me).
I want to start writing some articles about Metal bands on the Romanian Wikipedia, but I haven't got the slightest idea of which are the reliable sources on this topic. I'm looking for websites mainly, as I'm not sure many books will be available where I live (though I'll give that a try too if you can suggest any). All help is appreciated. Thank you. --GreenSprite (talk) 17:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed band from "black metal" section

According to both wikipedia and metal archives, Emperor was formed in 1991 making it unlikely that they were heading a second wave by the late 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.27.43 (talk) 18:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The second wave started early 90's. All of (second wave) black metal's early releases came from 1990's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.115.22.211 (talk) 19:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a source

here is just one reliable and maybe useful source.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 19:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Machismo and Male Sexuality?

That doesn't seem to describe most popular metal today. Motley Crue and the like may have played the machismo, but how many current metal bands do?--MartinUK (talk) 12:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• My dictionary thingy says:

stereotypic masculinity: an exaggerated sense or display of masculinity, emphasizing characteristics that are conventionally regarded as typically male, usually physical strength and courage, aggressiveness, and lack of emotional response

That said, I think most metal still holds these characteristics. For instance, Black Metal often has dark/fantasy lyrical themes which seem to appeal mostly to males. In addition, the imagery tends to have sort of a 'death and destruction' theme. (Albert Mond (talk) 14:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC))

Gothic metal and power metal, which are both popular in Europe, do not meet that definition. Zazaban (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd go along with masculinity for the majority of metal - lyrics about war are far more common than lyrics about love, for a start. But is it exaggerated and deliberate, or do other genres deliberately tone it down? Is metal (other than gothic and power) less popular among women? And sexuality (let alone sex itself) don't feature in most metal other than glam.--MartinUK (talk) 22:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I wrote that sentence, based on our good published sources, when we decided to remove the Allmusic quote that used to end the first paragraph: "of all rock & roll's myriad forms, heavy metal is the most extreme in terms of volume, machismo, and theatricality." I do think considering the history of heavy metal as a whole that machismo is pretty central, but masculine sexuality per se...maybe not so much--I'd support cutting that or rephrasing (as long as we have a good source that backs us up).—DCGeist (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Power metal is certainly a masculine genre with lyrics on subject typically regarded as such: fantasy battles, heroic adventures, etc. Even some of the band names tend to be overtly masculine: Manowar, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer, etc. The only real exception to the masculine trend in heavy metal is gothic metal. You could also say that all those instrumental progressive metal bands are exceptions too but that's really neither here nor there. So I agree that heavy metal is overwhelmingly masculine but that masculinity has little to do with sexuality. Outside the glam metal genre, sexuality is a subject rarely covered among heavy metal bands. The problem here is that the majority of sources on heavy metal music tend to be heavily biased in favor of the US market, particularly the glam metal from the 1980s. Where are the sources that give equal coverage to genres that are overwhelmingly European like gothic metal or folk metal? You got two sources supporting that masculine sexuality statement. The Deena Weinstein book was published in 1991. The other is an essay with a subject focusing on Led Zeppelin, an eclectic band that is far from representative of heavy metal. I don't think either source should be seen as very reliable for anything regarding the entire heavy metal genre as a whole. --Bardin (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. As I say, I'm not stuck at all on the "masculine sexuality" part of the phrase. For the machismo, we have at least the additional support of that ol' Allmusic description and, I have no doubt, others.—DCGeist (talk) 08:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, its masculin, I'm a mid twenty year old female. Most of the music relates to males, young, dress in dark clothing. What really does it offer the female side? I like the music but I find myself questioning why as I feel like I'm up against 17 year old males!

Metal isn't typically consciously chauvinistic or misogynistic, and beyond that you can't say it's masculine without subscribing to gender role, and this is coming suspiciously close to Mars-and-Venus stereotyping; I might ask what a "feminine" song is other than a love song. Yes, metal has a heavy tendency to be about war and death and such, but it was designed from the beginning to suit those topics. It's hard to do a metal love song, hence the power ballad. It's in the name: "heavy" is a reference to seriousness and gloominess as much as it is a reference to the guitars. And, indeed, metal, broadly speaking, seems to be legitimately interested in its subject material, rather than adhering to some unspoken code of masculinity; compare this to the self-conscious and blatant misogyny of metal's hard rock roots, a tradition that can be traced back through rock and roll to blues and country music. ASWilson (talk) 07:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, a significant amount of metal, especially in the power, prog, and folk metal genres, seem to strive for some ideal of musical beauty, which can hardly be called a stereotypically masculine trait.ASWilson (talk) 07:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The article states that that is what it is usually associated with, meaning that's what the general public seem to think the lyrics are about. As previously stated, that is more of an '80s idea, nowadays people more associate the lyrics with much darker themes - death, suicide, evil, hate, slef-loathing, etc. I know that only covers a small portion of metal, but that is probably what people associate it with in present day. The sentence could be changed to "In the early days of heavy metal, lyrical themes and imagery were associated with masculinity or, in the case of the metal underground, satanism. In recent years however, heavy metal music has been associated with much more darker themes of death, war and, mainly due to the nu metal breakout in the '90s, angst." or something to that effect. Xanthic-Ztk (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that change would be a good start. However, I think the satanism aspect could be emphasised more - that definitely didn't end with Slayer as a big metal theme. Also, I'd probably split the last part into something like "In recent years however, heavy metal music has been associated with dark themes such as death and war. Youthful angst was a common theme of the nu-metal subgenre prevalent in the late 1990s, and has entered into the wider metal scene to a large extent since then".--MartinUK (talk) 21:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Led Zeppelin Whole Lotta Love.ogg

The image File:Led Zeppelin Whole Lotta Love.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --16:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Specific rationale added. Thanks, bot.—DCGeist (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Classical music, Art Music/Pop Music?

From the article: "Although a number of metal musicians cite classical composers as inspiration, heavy metal cannot be regarded as the modern descendant of classical music.[29] Classical and metal are rooted in different cultural traditions and practices—classical in the art music tradition, metal in the popular music tradition."

I don't understand the reasoning behind this (rather questionable take on aesthetics for an encyclopedia); isn't even a bastard son still a descendant?--Ymirfrostgiant (talk) 03:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It's called snobbery. Heavy metal, 'popular music', can never have anything to do with respectable, high class

culture, so it must be pointed out in the article. Zazaban (talk) 03:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with snoberry. It has nothing to do with being respectable or with any social context considerations. It has to do with the compositional approach and the different aesthetical conception of music. Metal descends from rock, not from classical. That's it. It is not a bastard son at all. Because a genre is inspired by classical music doesn't necessarilly mean it descends from it. Come on, Jazz has been sometimes inspired by classical but noone claims it descends from classical though. This is a misconception. But let's take a more extreme example, many pop singers including Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Shania Twain or Shakira have claimed to be influenced by rock and hard rock bands(see the article ironically entitled "Girls got rhythm" in Hard-rock Magazine, issue #91, may 2003, p.7), yet noone would be stupid enough to claim they are some sort of bastard daughters of rock and hard-rock just because they are influenced by them...

The modern descendants of classical music are contemporary classical music and neoclassical music. By "contemporary classical music",I'm most particularly refering to the avantgarde and experimental forms of art music (such as serialism,concrete music, minimalist music, John Cage's conceptual music, Xenakis' Stochastic music,spectral music), however the term may sometimes be used to encompass neoclassical and neoromantic forms as well. Anyway, most of the (avant garde) contemporary classical music is rejected by traditional classical world, because it is too experimental and too different for them. In this regard, contemporary classical music could actually be regarded as the true bastard son of classical, while neoclassical and some postmodern music forms could be regarded as the legimate sons in the view of the most traditionalist ones.

Anyway, the distinction between art music, popular music and traditional is not a biased view: it is a commonly admitted distinction in musicological research. Even though many fans of popular music are unaware of it because they are unfamilliar with musicological paradigms. I have explained it countless times here (see Talk:Heavy metal music/Archive 3#Classical influence discussion most notably): this category is absolutely not meant to bellitle popular music genres such as metal but only to underline the differences of traditions. Art music is a highly theoretical tradition and it refers to written accademic tradition. Whereas Popular music composition relies on intuitive inspiration and refers little to written scores ( most of popular musicians can't read music, most of them are forced to use tabs instead) I know it is hard for people who are unfamilliar with musicological concepts to understand the distinction, but this is not an arbitrary view or some kind of lunatic theory. On a side note this part is sourced with a reference of two scholars: two referential musicologists named Nicolas Cook and Nicola Dibbens. Man, they are no sick idiots who just came up with some absurd theory just for the sake of legitimating some classical elistic snobbery. No, they are scholars(both with a phd in musicology) and are authorties in the domain, and they refer to commonly admited musicology concepts. Yeah, some could argue these guys, despite being reknown researchers, could be prejudiced against metal and any genres they call "popular" anyway. But unfortunately Dibbens is a specialist of such genres and she even publishes a musicological review dedicated to musicological studies on popular music genres. So no I don't think they are biased against it. Besides I never read anything condescending from them concerning such a music.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 09:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You wrote that "Jazz has been sometimes inspired by classical but noone claims it descends from classical though." So is there anyone silly enough to claim that heavy metal descends from classical music? If not, why is there a need for this article to deny something that nobody claims? --Bardin (talk) 17:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Because for some reasons many fans of metal seem to believe metal descends from Classical (just look at Ymirfrostgiant who seems to imply that metal is some kind of bastard son of classical) also earlier versions of this article tended to suggest it. Hence the use to specify it.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I retract what I said, I misunderstood what was being claimed in the article. I thought it was claiming that there was no influence from classical, which is not true. Zazaban (talk) 19:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

So, is being art music about tradition or is it about being art? Pop music is apparently not about being popular either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.5.155.191 (talk) 12:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry guys, but this is the same misunderstanding over and over again. As I explained countless times, the notion of art music has nothing to do with being more "artistic" even though the name "art music" seems to imply that. I agree the term "art music" is misguiding and sounds pejorative. For my part, I prefer using the term "erudite music" which is more explicit and more neutral. But well, the term "art music" is more frequent for some reasons in english musicological litterature. Anyway it has nothing to do with artistic appreciations. The distinction doesn't imply that popular music is less artistic. I'm a fan of heavy metal, and I have no interest in claiming it is less artistic or inferior.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 17:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

This distinction seems very arbitrary. A great many 'pop' acts have released music which was more artistic and less commercially-minded than what was expected of them (The Beatles, David Bowie and Radiohead for example), while classical music did have a public following who did pay money to hear their artists, so there must have been some performances and compositions which were purely intended to generate income rather than to push any artistic boundaries. A great many metal artists have released uncommercial music and discussed it in a very technical/artistic way - far more than in any other vaguely mainstream genre - so to dismiss it as 'not art' in such a broad way is a little insulting.--MartinUK (talk) 13:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

There's still a misunderstanding going on here. I totally agree with you concerning popular acts not necessarilly being commercially-minded. But the notion of art music has nothing to do with some "art-vs-commercial" distinction. Art music doesn't mean being "uncommercial". Popular music doesn't mean being "commercial". Come on, Mozart sells very well, even more than many popular artists. So no, it has nothing to do with such considerations.

No, the distinction has to do with a difference of traditions concerning the approch of music. Art music and popular music don't have the same approch. That's all. Art music is an academic and theoretical tradition that relied on a written score tradition and high demanding theories of composition, whereas popular music doesn't refer very much on scores (many popular musicians can't read music, that's why many of them use tabs). Also Popular music is freer and more intuitive in terms of composition: it doesn't need to conform with aesthetic theories or rules of compositions. Plus, music production is different, art music composers write a score that will be played by other specialized performers (orchestra, ensemble, solo concertists etc...), whereas in popular music, music is generally composed and performed by members of a band (though not always). Art music composers don't tour to promote their music.

I insist guys, even though the name "art music" may sound pejorative (I agree), nowadays this notion is not used to bellitle popular music. I repeat it "the distinction between art music, popular music and traditional is not a biased view: it is a commonly admitted distinction in musicological research."Fred D.Hunter (talk) 17:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Making difference between art music and popular music tradition is only one way to perceive the relation of Heavy metal and Classical music. Especially modern Heavy metal has taken much influence from Classical music. Denying that is ignorant and the only reason for doing that I can think of is some pointless fear of "devilishness" of Heavy metal. Tritone was perceived devilish in Classical music and yet it was used already in Baroque era and from there on. It's simply wrong to say that the tradition of classical music wouldn't live in modern Heavy metal in a form or another: pompousness, melodiousness, etc. This relation may feel like superficial for experts in music theory, but there's still a clear relation. This is why I think this paragraph should be corrected to include a broader view on the influential relation of Classical music to Heavy metal. It shouldn't focus in separating the origins of Heavy metal from Classical music, because taking influence is a whole another thing. —Juhani Lindfors, 16:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.156.251.172 (talk)

Heavy metal has taken influence from all types of music. Tony Iommi enjoyed jazz, Anthrax's members liked hip-hop. Should this last genres be considered as musical roots of metal? My answer is no, cause they were not fundamental in its development. For this same reason classical music shouldn't be considered a musical root of Heavy metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.41.82.24 (talk) 18:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Some points in the "lyrical themes" section

I just wanted to raise a couple of bits that strike me from the lyrical themes section. The main one is the opening:

“Common themes in heavy metal lyrics are sex, violence, and the occult. The sexual nature of many heavy metal songs, ranging from Led Zeppelin's suggestive lyrics to the more explicit references of latter-day nu metal bands, derives from the genre's roots in blues music and its frequently sexual content”

This I feel needs some work. The first line paints a very slanted picture, and while the other common lyrical themes are explained further in, simply saying “common themes are sex, violence and the occult” just sounds derogatory. “The sexual nature of many heavy metal songs” also sounds misleading: in truth, while sex is worth noting as a significant theme, it’s nothing like that much, nor “frequently sexual content”. This only really refers to the glam/traditional metal of the 80s, most other forms rarely talk about sex much.

I’m aware there is a citation at the end of that line, would anyone who does possess the book be kind enough to paste here a small quote, showing what it is that justifies that line? I’d just like to know exactly how much of that above statement is affirmed in the passage cited.

“Music critics have often deemed metal lyrics juvenile and banal”

This could also do with some work. Again, it doesn’t have a source, and while there are a good number of music critics who have said that, I feel it does sound a bit harsh, especially without some sourcing to back it up. Prophaniti (talk) 11:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that it's "derogatory" at all, but the section does need work. I remember adding the citation, so I went through the page history and found that I only intended it to apply to the sentence about sexual themes drawing from the genre's blues roots (since so many of the early bands started out as blues-rock groups). I'll check out the book this week and work on it. But yes, sex has been a frequent topic of metal songs from its origins to today, from Zeppelin and Deep Purple through glam metal to nu metal ("Nookie", anyone?). WesleyDodds (talk) 12:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Prophaniti here. This might be a featured article but that section on lyrical themes is very much lacking in sources with only three citations spread out in three paragraphs. Of these three sources, one is from 1988, another 1991 while the third is there just for the Judas Priest suicide controversy. We're in the year 2009: that's over twenty years since Jon Pareles wrote his NYT article. I'm not sure I see how relevant that is unless we qualify the quotation used in the article by mentioning the year it was written. The sentence "Music critics have often deemed metal lyrics juvenile and banal" needs to be improved or dropped entirely. Shouldn't we avoid using the word often and instead qualify the sentence by identifying which critics deem metal lyrics as such? I'm not convinced that sex is a common theme in heavy metal music. This is not far removed from the machismo and male sexuality discussion above on this talk page. Glam and nu metal are far from representative of heavy metal music; one might even suggest that they are quite atypical of the genre. There's little to no sexuality in death metal, black metal, doom metal, prog metal, folk metal, thrash metal, power metal, speed metal, symphonic metal, viking metal, avant-garde metal, christian metal, etc. --Bardin (talk) 13:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Sex does appear in some metal songs, but I wouldn't say it's one of the more dominant themes. The majority of heavy metal subgenres rarely make reference to sex. Some traditional metal does (like, as you say, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin), but these are mostly from a time when it was still emerging from rock. Nu metal also occasionally does, but it's not that common a theme, that genre is more concerned with relationships in general than sex specifically, and the genre is a mish-mash of many different influences anyway, so the odd bit of sexual content can't particularly be ascribed to metal. Glam metal is really the only main genre that focuses on sex. Thrash, death, black, metalcore, doom, gothic, industrial, progressive, folk, power; all of those hardly ever make reference to sex specifically. So while it may be worth mentioning as one of many lyrical themes, I feel the section as it stands makes it appear a bit too dominant. Sex is a major theme of glam metal, but that's just one subgenre, and then some scattered examples in other genres.

And thanks Bardin. Bardin also raises a good point about the sources, particularly with their dating. Another point to make about it is even if we do have one book stating that sex is a dominant lyrical theme, we have to consider balance of sources. There are many books in the sources section. If only one book out of many mentions this, we don't want to give it too much weight, because if the other books don't mention it as well it would appear to be a minority view. Prophaniti (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Relationships in general are rarely a theme in most of the metal subgenres mentioned - fantasy and war themes, and references to religion and politics are far more common. This should be possible to source - a 20-year-old quote on a 40-year-old genre is ridiculous, and can't be expected to be accurate about the bulk of metal.

Sorry, I've been prety busy lately and haven't gotten a chance to visit my library. I'll try and fix it up this week. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The article states that "Death metal utilizes the speed and aggression of both thrash and hardcore, fused with lyrics preoccupied with Z-grade slasher movie violence and Satanism" However such lyrics are the mainstay of brutal death metal bands like Cannibal Corpse. Many, if not most Death metal bands including pioneers Death and most melodic death metal bands have rather philosophical lyrics. The article seems rather biased in its interpretation of lyrics, particularly those of Death metal. However due to lack of a credible source I have refrained from editing it. I believe a better phrase is offered by the Death metal page "Death metal utilizes the speed and aggression of both thrash and hardcore, fused with lyrics preoccupied with Z-grade slasher movie violence and Satanism but may also extend to contain themes of Satanism, criticism of religion, Occultism, mysticism, and/or social commentary." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.34.174 (talk) 22:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

raprock and rap metal are not the same thing

who the **** linked rap metal to the raprock page???? i know they get confused a lot but seriously wtf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.239.90 (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As long as we're talking about the New Fusions: 1990s and early 2000s section, will someone explain to me why funk metal band Living Colour and rap metal band Body Count aren't even mentioned here?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.105.64 (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Is the origin England or England/America?

Is America really one of the countries of heavy metal's origins?

I ask not because of a desire to say "Hey, it's English music, yay England!", but simply because the list of early heavy metal bands here are all English bands (Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple). The only American who springs to mind as someone with a sizeable presence in the genre is Jimi Hendrix... but he formed his band (the Jimi Hendrix Experience) in London, every other member was English and they remained London-based until Jimi's untimely death.

America has made a lot of excellent heavy metal, but I'm not sure it could be regarded as an originating country for the genre any more than England could be regarded as an originating country for gangster rap!

Thus, I ask: Should country of origin be changed to "England"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.183.201 (talk) 16:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read the article to understand why—despite the fact that the first "big" metal bands were English—the answer is No. For instance:

In 1968, the sound that would become known as heavy metal began to coalesce. That January, the San Francisco band Blue Cheer released a cover of Eddie Cochran's classic "Summertime Blues," from their debut album Vincebus Eruptum, that many consider the first true heavy metal recording. The same month, Steppenwolf released its self-titled debut album, including "Born to Be Wild," with its "heavy metal" lyric. In July, another [...] epochal record came out: [...] Iron Butterfly's In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, with its 17-minute-long title track, a prime candidate for first-ever heavy metal album.

Keep reading: you'll find the U.S. bands Grand Funk Railroad and Mountain making a formative impact in 1969. And before you say they're not "really" heavy metal, they were certainly considered so at the time—no less than Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple.—DCGeist (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

None of this explains why these bands influenced the sound we know as heavy metal. Led Zep's influence especially is very clear on modern folk-metal and Viking metal, whereas releasing covers as singles is very very rare in metal, and often seen as an artistic compromise. The Iron Butterfly mention reads as if 'long song+guitar=metal', which is not the case. Even the American groups of today do not mention any of those bands - the references are to the British innovators, Sabbath especially. There's no evidence that Tony Iommi's guitar sound or Sababth's use of horroresque imagery was influenced by those US acts, or that Sabbath/Led Zep/Deep Purple knew of them at the time--MartinUK (talk) 11:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sure, all the guys in Led Zeppelin were morbidly stupid gits. But, you know, given the fact that they appeared at the Atlanta Pop Festival with Grand Funk Ralroad, how 'bout we give the boys credit for "knowing of them at the time". More to to the point, how much would you like to bet that Grand Funk and Mountain didn't sure as heck know of Blue Cheer and Iron Butterfly? And that all the crappy little early U.S. metal bands that soon followed didn't sure as heck know of all four? Show us the money.—DCGeist (talk) 07:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Metal's evolution from bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple to modern metal bands has been a joint effort by both England and the United States. Metal as we know it today was probably more greatly influenced by American bands than English bands, but those American bands were probably influenced by English bands. Both countries have shared an equal part in the evolution of metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xanthic-Ztk (talk • contribs) 23:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

In fact, British bands have had little impact on the last 25 years of metal. Since Iron Maiden, every big metal act has been either American or from mainland Europe (Germany and Scandinavia especially). British labels prefer to sign Coldplay-esque stuff to metal. The issue is whether the genre would have existed in anything like its present form without Led Zep, Deep Purple and especially Black Sabbath.--MartinUK (talk) 23:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course it wouldn't. But, you see, there's really no issue. Those are the three early bands that get named in the lead section, and we name England before the United States in both the lead and the infobox. But as has been very clearly evidenced and explained, the United States was also a significant site for the early development of heavy metal, and there's no compelling case for entirely eliminating it from the lead.—DCGeist (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I got to this discussion from a conversation on last.fm where text from this article has been quoted. I don't have access to the Weinstein article mentioned all over here, but seeing the arguments above here is what I have to say against naming the US as an origin of heavy metal.
Firstly, when we are talking about the origin, we must not consider later contributions howsoever significant they may be. This excludes the US as much as it does Germany and the Scandinavian countries, at least on that account.
Neither should you consider music that came before and sounded similar, or influenced what came after. If you keep looking back thus you would reach Richard Wagner, and thence go on to Neanderthals blowing and rubbing odds and ends. This discounts Hendrix (who himself denied association with metal, though his influence is clear), Grand Funk Railroad and Mountain.
The single entity most readily identified as the origin of heavy-metal is Black Sabbath which is British (I cite Ian Christe's Sound of the Beast). Their inspiration wasn't a previous American band--they were formed as the rock-and-roll of the love generation fell apart, and the legendary accident of Iommi led them to a new sound that satisfied the occult tendencies they had.
As for the songs by Iron Butterfly, Blue Cheer and Steppenwolf (which is Canadian) which do seem to make the cut, they are little more than one-hit-wonders in comparison to the British contributions, and at best deserve a consolation prize. Was the forest fire caused by people across the sea who were rubbing stones and producing sparks yesterday? In the line of metal milestones in Sound of the Beast the first American name that appears is Kiss, and we know they would have led to the death of heavy metal were it not rescued by Judas Priest and others, again British, but I digress, for this is well ahead of the "origin" we are seeking.
Of the issue being spoken of by DCGeist and MartinUK, I would only say that naming the US alongside the UK as the origin of heavy metal doesn't sound factually balanced and denies the British bands the exclusive credit they deserve, as those of whom the music and movement of heavy metal was born.

--Ankurtg (talk) 09:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I concur with what Ankurtg is saying. It does seem that the American contributions to the origin and birth of heavy metal have been very minor, and merely sound similar at best. There is no proof that any of them have influenced any metal bands, or had any real impact on the genre at all. On top of that, they aren't truly metal songs - merely songs that sound similar and utilise certain concepts of the genre, but aren't quite there.

I propose that we change the article to list England as the origin of metal. Is anyone willing to edit the article?

I suggest we change 'Heavy metal' (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in England and the United States. With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created... to

'Heavy metal' (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the 1970s largely in England. With roots in the blues-rock and psychedelic rock of 1960's, the bands that created....

This is to imply what I have previously stated -- true metal started in about 1970 in England (Sabbath), and developed in the coming few years. The music of 1960's (which is where the US largely contributed, though I find this fact hard to fit here) only influenced metal. Now the problem is of ref 2 (Weinstein), to which I have no access. I wish to delete it, and we can change Ref 2 to Ian Christe's Sound of the Beast, with the page number of the Timeline of heavy-metal, that starts with the release of Black Sabbath and is followed by several British bands. Does anyone see a problem with this? I'd be glad to hear improvements. If none, I can make these changes after waiting a few days.--Ankurtg (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there's a very big problem with that. We have a very detailed, very well-sourced History section that clearly demonstrates how heavy metal began developing in the late 1960s in both England and the United States. The long-standing version of the lead is fine just the way it is.—DCGeist (talk) 23:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Opeth?

I realise that the aim of this article isn't to list every single metal band, but surely the Swedish group Opeth should be mentioned? Their fusion of death metal with prog elements is largely unique and highly innovative, and has been a big commercial success in much of the world.--MartinUK (talk) 11:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

While they are a notable metal band, I don't see any real reason to mention them in the article. Xanthic-Ztk (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Opeth have incorporated softer elements such as use of acoustic guitars and clean vocals mixed with death-metal style growls and heavy riffing which has not been seen much earlier. Surely that merits them a mention in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.34.174 (talk) 22:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Dissection have been doing it a lot longer than Opeth, Opeth weren't really doing anything "innovative". Just prog metal with death metal vocals. ThePerfectVirus (talk) 20:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Grunge

Even though grunge music does hold roots from Heavy Metal, I believe it is considered more alternative rock than metal. I don't think it should even be in the fusion genre category, for metal was only used as a mere inspiration for the genre.

UberHeadbanger (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2009 (EST)

Look at Alice in Chains, Soundgarden for grunge bands that can easily be called metal & Melvins for a big central band/influence in the movement who were also metal. 174.21.45.89 (talk) 20:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Deena Weinstein

Who the fuck is "Deena Weinstein" and why is she mentioned so prominently in this article??? 70.168.32.250 (talk) 05:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)