Talk:Rap rock

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Merger proposal

Both the articles are essentially about the same thing. rapcore is a poorly sourced neologism of the few sources that are viewable, only one seems to use the term most are actually about a more general rap-rock fusion genre. AS we cannot verify it's notability a merged article would be better and more complete. --neon white talk 14:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? Rapcore is described in Joe Ambrose's The Violent World of Moshpit as "a mixture of white rap and hardcore". There are several sources describing this genre. It is not a neologism. The term has been around for years. An actual neologism, nu metal, was recently speedy kept. Why do you think we'd merge articles describing separate legitimate genres? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I cannot find such a source. The article has a lack of sources describing this term. Neologisms need sources tracking the emergance and use of a term. This article is largely based on sources describing a general genre. It is original research and -core cruft. --neon white talk 12:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See here. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

That's not a source it's google search. --neon white talk 15:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So far every source I can find shows it being the same as rapmetal. [1], [2],[3],[4],[5]. Seems there has been some very selective sourcing on this article since the only source that supports the article [6] is the only only source cited that has anything to do with the genre. Ridernyc (talk) 14:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rapcore is not the same as rap metal. Rapcore is a fusion of hardcore punk and hip hop. Rap metal is a fusion of heavy metal and hip hop, hence the terms "rapcore" and "rap metal", core originating from hardcore. There are sources clearly stating this. Perhaps you were not paying attention. Want more sources? More sources here and here. I removed the notification because the proposal was clearly not in good faith. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

site actual sources that describe rapcore. not vague search terms. Most of what you just sited is mentioned above as disagreeing with you. With the exception of one every Google book hit every source says the term is interchangeable. I don't think you are actually looking at sources and reading what they say. Ridernyc (talk) 08:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are clearly not reading the sources if you keep insisting that the terms are "interchangeable". They are clearly describing two separate things. You are way out of line with your edits. Rapcore is clearly a legitimate genre. Certain online merchants, such as Rhapsody, have even categorized albums and artists under the genre. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I have read the sources almost everyone of them say something like the following "rapmetal ,also known as rapcore.". 20:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)~

There's one source that says that. Let me explain this carefully. Do you think that hardcore punk and heavy metal music are the same thing? Why would someone refer to a heavy metal-oriented music act as a hardcore band? There is a clear difference between rapcore and rap metal. It's a legitimate genre. There are sources clearly stating what the genre is: a fusion of hardcore punk and hip hop. Furthermore, "rapcore", "hardcore" turns up 2,640,000 results on Google, and there is a book devoted to the subject. Thus, it is clearly not a neologism. These articles should not be merged. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Posting the same generic searches over and over is getting use no where. I've ready posted specific sources that support my stance. You keep typing rapcore into google and saying that some how proves your point. I've actually read through about 10 pages of google hits and the first 3 pages of google book hits, nad found what I posted above. Ridernyc (talk) 22:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These aren't "the same generic searches over and over". You clearly are not paying attention. There is significant evidence that rapcore and rap metal are different, legitimate genres. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 23:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

As a third opinion, you cannot use google searches as sources. If you want people to agree with you, cite.. I'm going to say five, independent sources that are not google searches. Google searches mean nothing, as they can really turn up things either way, with nothing really solid. You have yet to cite more than one source. Is there a reason you are evading this challenge?— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 02:01, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Secondly if there are many sources supporting your opinion, then you should have no trouble citing those specific sources.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 02:02, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The rapcore article cites 15 sources which back up all information stated, including the basics of the genre. The only person who is evading anything is Ridernyc, who avoids any instance in which he would be forced to admit that he is wrong. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 03:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Please list them.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 03:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

reset indent. If you are going to make claims at least make claims that are true, we already went over the 15 sources and that the majority of them have nothing to do with rapcore User_talk:Neon_white#Rapcore. Also you have had 2 different editors point this out to you so I'm not the only one. Ridernyc (talk) 04:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is simply not true. You are clearly not looking at the sources. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 12:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

What sources! you havent provided any to look at yet? We need you to provide multiple verifiable sources that detail this is a genre unique and distinct from rap rock, rap metal or any other of the thousands of neologisms used for fusions of rap and rock. Not google search results, not links to books for sale, verifiable sources. --neon white talk 15:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(od)Let me be the third to point this out to you, Ibaranoff. Sadly, (once again) it appears the only problem here is you refusing to accept consensus. Landon1980 (talk) 07:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Landon, you are never a helpful presence in any discussion, and are continuously disruptive. There is no consensus here. You simply need another excuse to attack me. I have no idea what I did for you to stalk me and continuously belittle me outside of your own little circle, but it's not helpful in any instance. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 12:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Ibaranoff, you are not allowed to call other editors disruptive for disagreeing with you. That aside, please list all the sources you claim to exist in this discussion, with the line in the source that supports your opinion, like the example I shall give below:

[www.sourcelink.com sentence which supports your point of view on the subject matter in previously linked source].

Please do this. All you do is keep saying that x article has x sources, you have yet to cite them so we can all see what specifically you are referring to. We may be reading it wrong.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 19:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=9bUOH7OKoGAC&pg=PA5&dq=rapcore+hardcore

Clearly defines the sub-genre.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Defines rap metal. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=grWO5XKtbCoC&pg=PA10&dq=you+might+also+have+heard+of+the+terms+rap-metal+rap-rock+rapcore+and+so+on&lr=

Long article, no words are highlighted, and a quick skim-through comes up with nothing. Please list the specific sentence and page which corresponds to rapcore as a genre.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is "You might also have heard of the terms rap-metal, rap-rock, rapcore, and so on". (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Not really significant. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=YQJ6AAAAIAAJ&q=rapcore+hardcore&dq=rapcore+hardcore

Again, clearly defines rapcore as a genre. We, as of this moment, have two sources.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dodgy source, zero significance. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=nLWR4o42ItYC&pg=RA3-PA73&dq=rapcore+hardcore&lr=

The source mentions rapcore and hardcore, but it could be debated on why until a translation is provided. Not to be used as a source until a translation, or translator, is made available.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is a review of the album Pigwalk by Stuck Mojo. It refers to the album as being primarily rapcore, a genre influenced by hardcore. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Again not significant. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bgn9SGmA4dkC&pg=PA656&dq=rapcore+punk+limp+bizkit&lr=

Clarifies rapcore as a sub-genre.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Link to a book not a source. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=WUJDr83m4n8C&pg=PA189&dq=rapcore&lr= (mentions rapcore as being separate from rap metal and rap rock)

Again lists rapcore as a sub-genre.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually lists a collection of terms for the same thing including rap-rock and rapcore, the strongest evidence for a merge. --neon white talk 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't what I asked for. I asked for a link, a wikiurl, eg: a link to google of each source, with the 'a link to google part', being the specific sentence which supports your views. Of course, it would help to know the page, and paragraph number, but what's said is what I requested.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 20:34, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this better? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Slightly, you're almost there. I haven't read through any of the sources yet, as I don't know where to look. Try formatting the links like I did in the example, such as here, which is formatted like so: [http://www.google.com here]. Thank you for trying.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, nevermind for a second, let me look through them.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As noted above, we now have.. four sources which mention rapcore as a sub-genre.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Mentions" arent significant coverage, there still is little proof that this is not just another term for the same thing as rap rock. --neon white talk 22:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not sources that mention rapcore as a sub-genre the problem is conflicting sources. One source mentions rapcore as a mixture of hardcore and rap, then mentions the Red Hot Chill Peppers as the best example. Another mentions the same then talks about Limp Bizkit. Not only do sources contradict each other but as I just mentioned they contradict themselves. I've seen sources that mention Body Count, other then having Ice T as the front man there was nothing rap about Body Count. We have Other sources that talk about Run-DMC, There is no clear way to create this article without crossing the line of WP:Synthesis. The only thing that can clearly and not contradictorily be sourced is the statement "Rap-core is a mixture of hardcore and rap", No sources agree on when it started, who influenced it, what bands are part of the genre. We also have an a bunch of sources that say rap-metal is the same as rapcore. While I agree with the statement, "rap-core is a mixture of hard core and rap". I see no way to source any statements beyond with current sources. Ridernyc (talk) 09:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While you have every right to your opinion, it shouldn't play a part in your editing. I don't consider Body Count to be rap-rock/rap-metal/rapcore either, but that's what's sourced. There should be enough sources to clarify between bands classified as 'rapcore' that have hardcore punk influences and those that do not. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

That would be crossing the line into original research. This genre is just to new and poorly defined to have adequate sourcing. Ridernyc (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How new could it be if the term was used in a news article from 1994? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

noothing other then the use of the word word rapcore useless source. Ridernyc (talk) 08:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might be useless, but it proves that it is not a neologism. The useful sources are already used in the article, and do back up content such as genre basics and application to different bands. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

to me it shows it is a neologism since we have yet to find any sources that manage to difine it without contradicting other sources. So far all we have proved it that it is a term that is used with no real meaning behind it. I can find references to punk rock from the 60's were they talking about the genre we know as punk rock, no. They were just using a phrase. Ridernyc (talk) 01:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know what a neologism is? A neologism is a new term that is not well-defined. This is not a new term, and it is pretty clearly defined. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Moving On

Since there seems to be consensus. I'm moving on unless someone provides actual sources. I think at this point it is clear even the minor sources provided are not enough to support this article. I propose moving both articles and adding a rap metal section in the rap rock article. This section could have a very brief one sentence mention that rapcore is a division of rap metal more focused on elements taken from hardcore music. Ridernyc (talk) 18:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please just wait awhile more. Two people is not consensus, nor is three.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 19:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree just trying to move on from the mess of the last bit of conversation with a somewhat revised propsal and more specific proposal. Ridernyc (talk) 19:52, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the current sources, I support the merger. Landon1980 (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the five current sources, which is more than enough, I oppose the merger.— Dæ dαlus^Contribs 22:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What sources? a neologism requires significant coverage documenting the emergence and use of a term. An odd random mention here and there in questionable sources is nowhere near the quality needed. I have yet to see a source that satisfies that criteria. We need a source that defines this as a completely seperate and notable sub-genre, one that doesnt desribe exactly the subject, or very close to the subject, of this article so that a reasonable reader would likely consider the terms interchangable (which justifies a merge on the grounds of overlap and context) or describe something different entirely. Yet what we do have from the above is a source that unambiguously states that the terms are in fact two of a handful of interchangable terms:

The relationship between metal and hip hop has always been tenuous, as evidenced by the multiplicity of names that have been to describe music that includes elements of both genres. These labels include rapcore, rap-rock, rap-metal, and nu metal (a term that includes, but is not limited to, metal with hip hop elements. [7]

Consider Electronic rock as a precedent, as listed in the lead, there are various terms for what is essentially the same genre, you could easily source them all, but four seperate articles covering the same thing is a mess. One well written article is of far more benefit to the reader. --neon white talk 22:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rapcore is not the same as rap metal. As linked above, there are five books clearly describing the genre as a fusion of hip hop and hardcore punk, and news articles have been published since at least 1994 using the term, thus disproving the suggestion that it is a "neologism". Newer genre terms have been the subject of poorer articles that have survived AFD and merger proposals. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

reset. Again as linked above there are also multiple sources that say they are the same. we can not pick and choose sources. Ridernyc (talk) 08:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Usage is not evidence that a neologism is notable, we have a strong source linking the many terms as interchangable and no real sources that define any difference between them. We have evidence of different publications and different journalists using different terms to describe the same (or at least similar enough for wikipedia) subject. We don't need, nor is it helpful, to have multiple articles for different phrases in usage for very similar subjects. --neon white talk 12:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In spite of each of your individual claims that 'rapcore' and 'rap metal' are one in the same or interchangeable, credible sources prove otherwise. There is significant evidence that these are separate genres — and "hardcore" is clearly not a genre of heavy metal, but punk rock. The articles should not be merged. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Can you explain why the only sources that you acknowledge are the ones that agree with your POV? Ridernyc (talk) 01:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The strongest and most unambiguous source is the one i quoted above which explains the interchangability of the phrases and [8] which states that '"Nu-metal" is a broad enough label to cover the whole scene'. Other than that we have conflicting sources but not one that specifically defines a difference between the two. In this very brief entry in what seems to be a form of urban dictionary [9], the Red Hot Chili Peppers are stated to be 'the best band in that genre' and Limp Bizkit the 'most popular', however in the same book they are also described as rap-metal (page 40) and in this article ([rap-rock]) covers the Red Hot Chili Peppers as a rap-rock band and this [10] covers Limp Bizkit as rap rock too. It seems clear to me that these are all just different terms for the same thing. The term 'hardcore' is used in conjuction with numerous genres from Hardcore techno to Happy Hardcore to Hardcore hip hop. --neon white talk 13:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I might want to ask you the same question, considering that you have ignored every source I have posted, which clearly outnumbers the number of sources which describe rapcore as being the same as rap metal. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

No actually I have repeatedly replied to your source and even used some them in my statements. At this point you clearly have your own POV and are going to ignore everything stated by other editors. Your comment above shows you have either not read my statements or are totally misinterpreting them. Ridernyc (talk) 09:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not ignoring you, although I probably should, being that you repeat the same argument over and over and don't try to move the discussion forward. Multiple editors have disagreed with you, and you have responded by treating them as if they were stupid. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Yeah there is a flood of multiple editors disagreeing with me. So since you are not ignoring I will once again ask clearly this time show me multiple reliable source that show the history and development of this genre that do not contradict each other. Not random searches. Not one word mentions that show use of the word in 1994. Not one article. Multiple sources that show how this started, what bands influenced, what bands were inspired by it. Find me 5 that agree and you may have a point. And once again 5 that agree with each other not just 5 that use the word. 5 that say it started in similar years, influenced by similar artists, with a similar style. Ridernyc (talk) 02:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think more importantly, seen as we have multiple sources that both link the subject and desribe the interchangability of terms, we need sources that say the opposite, that they are different. We can find loads of sources that describe the genre using the various terms but not one that compares then side by side describing them as different. --neon white talk 23:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sources I have posted don't contradict each other. You're just ignoring them. Sources clearly state that rapcore developed from rap rock, and that it is a fusion of hardcore punk and hip hop. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

This is bordering on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I outlines above how they contradicted quoting several sources The sources have all been considered and none are sufficient enough to define the difference and we the strong one that states the opposite. --neon white talk 23:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, this is not true, and neither are your allegations of disruption. Read Dæ dαlus' comments. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

It is obviously true and in plain sight to anyone looking at this page. Ignoring other editor's contributions and refusing to acknowledge their arguments is considered disruptive. You have not once attempted to enter into a discussion on the points made just continually repeat the same thing. --neon white talk 16:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is what you and Ridernyc are doing. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Coverage of rapcore within news articles

Hofstra University Hofstra Chronicle refers to rapcore as a fusion of hardcore punk, hip hop, and metal.
GW Hatchet refers to rapcore as an individual genre separate from hardcore and hard rock.
New Straits Times refers to rapcore as a fusion of hardcore punk and rapped vocals.
The Sun refers to Reveille as having a "rapcore edge".
New Straits Times refers to rapcore as a fusion of hardcore, funk, and rap.
Michigan Daily - "POD brings the pain in G-rated nuggets of scripture-laced rapcore".
Sarasota Herald-Tribune refers to rapcore as a fusion of hardcore, metal and hip hop.
Muze/MyWire refers to POD as a rapcore band. (This biography is also published on NME's website, here.)

These sources show that rapcore has received enough coverage as a separate genre. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Again we need sources the Clearly describe the genre. sources that show it's development and history. Not just random mentions of a neologism. Getting very tired of making the same statements and being repeatedly and totally ignored. Ridernyc (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, it is clearly not a neologism. The term has been in use since 1994. You are ignoring clear sourced facts. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

That's not evidence that it isn't a neologism. --neon white talk 23:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is. When a genre is clearly defined and has been in use for more than ten years, it is not a neologism. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

There is no specified time for a neologism and it obviously is not clearly defined or the discussion wouldnt be taking place. The genre is as unclear as ever. --neon white talk 16:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it were not clearly defined, why would multiple editors say that it is? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Where are these multiple editors located? I still haven't seen any reliable sources that clearly define this genre, only ones that contradict one another. Seems as if the best source we have says they are one and the same. Landon1980 (talk) 16:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Merger

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Should any of the articles: Rap rock, Rap metal, Rapcore be merged into a general article? --neon white talk 23:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]