Talk:27 Club

Deletion log here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/27_Club

It was deleted because "The keep arguments have not been able to rebuttal [sic] the WP:NEO arguments appropriately".

However, while several (apparently "inappropriate") arguments were made as to why it is NOT a neologism, NONE were offered as to why it IS a neologism. You can't be expected to refute something adequately if it hasn't been explained adequately.

The discussion did NOT end in a consensus. If you know how, please restore the page and let its deletion discussion continue until a consensus is reached, or at least until somebody explains why it breaches WP:NEO. It doesn't seem to breach it to me; it has many secondary sources... most of the people who called it a neologism did so when it only had a few sources, so several more were added to refute this.

Besides; innocent until proven guilty right? If it's going to be deleted under WP:NEO, someone has to jolly well explain why it breaches WP:NEO!

I'm right and you're wrong 11:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Article was deleted, then restored as the result of deletion review on 6 July 2007

(See the pointer to the AfD debate at the top of this page). Older comments left on this Talk page are still in the history, if anyone wants to bring them back. EdJohnston 21:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Add pictures?

I'm not very good with adding pictures, nor knowledgeable in copyright issues, so could someone familiar with all the copyright issues find one of the 27 club posters in a low resolution and meeting the copyright criteria, so it can be added to the main page? I'm hoping some pictures can back-up that the 27 club isn't some newly spawned idea. CherryFlavoredAntacid 22:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Additions of 27 club members

I've been noticing alot of people have been adding lesser known musicians who died at the age of 27 to the table. I believe it may be getting a little out of hand, as the table is not meant for every musician who died at 27. Only the widely known members. (Jones, Cobain, Morrison, Hendrix, and Joplin) While I'm not saying these other musicians are not members of the 27 club, earlier versions of this article included a full list of musicians who died at 27, and it was rather long, and a bit messy looking, due to the sheer mass, and the fact that many of the musicians weren't widely known. Perhaps we should keep this article to just the prominant members, so this doesn't look like a trivia page? CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody who isn't on List of famous people who died young Zazaban 23:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If your next-door neighbor's garage band loses its bass player at 27, you should NOT add it to the list. However, if the individual already has a pre-existing page on Wikipedia, I think it's fair to add him or her. The fact that someone had a page on Wikipedia prior to being added to the list illustrates that they are somewhat "well known." Moreover, I found the 'less-prominent' and 'near miss' lists to be fascinating, giving more credit to the 27 Club. I say restore them all!

...and by "page" I mean a Wikipedia article.

This is a mess

As I feared would happen, this article is falling apart and turning into listcruft. The sources I cited for "The 27 Club" being used as a phrase to group *some* of these musicians together name Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison and Cobain. That's pretty much it. No value judgement on the worth of any of the others, the fame of the others, the talent of the others; that's just who the sources name. Some of the sources mention that there's generally a statistical spike among 27 year old artists and musicians, but any others are rarely named, let alone focused on. What we have now is OR listcruft that is no longer supported by the sources I added. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It includes, and only includes Musicians listed on the List of famous people who died young. Zazaban 05:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The table is for the prominent members. The ones commonly used in conjuction with The 27 Club. Not every musician who died at the age of 27. Whether they're on a list of famous people or not, that doesn't make them commonly associated with The 27 Club. CherryFlavoredAntacid 17:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say "prominent". If this is a requirment please say so in the main article and elaborate on what being "prominent" implies. Zazaban 17:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, my bad. It used to say that, until someone edited it out. You can see that in it's history The original term was "the most commonly accepted grouping" Meaning Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Cobain, and Morrison. They can be defined as "the most commonly accepted grouping" as all (except for Jones) are in a number of 27 Club, Forever 27 and similarly titled shirts, posters, and art. Jones is included in most of them, but not all. A poster including all of them, A poster including all but Jones, A shirt including all of them Johnson, Belvin, McKernan, Alexander, Ham, Bell, Boon and Pfaff are on no such merchandising. They did die at 27, sure, but they're not commonly refered to in conjuction with The 27 Club. As I stated before, in the past, this article included a very long list of many musicians who died at 27. The list was long, messy, and made The 27 Club more of a listcruft than an article. We're trying to prove that the 27 Club is not a neologism (the reason for it's recent deletion), and is, in fact, a real and commonly used term. We need to keep this article clean and encylopedic or it may face deletion yet again. CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If we can't keep this to the short version I sourced, it deserves to be deleted as unencyclopedic. I wouldn't be opposed to taking th version I did and, in the "Inclusion of less prominent members" section, naming some of the others people try to add to the list, wiki-linked to their articles and the List of famous people who died young. But putting others in the table negates the reasons this was saved. If that continues I'll put it up for deletion this time. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, Zazaban, the links you keep deleting go to sourcing. They are examples of the use of "The 27 Club" to link this group of people. They are among the only things here that keep this from being OR. Your edit summary was odd, saying it's "not about the 27 Club"... um, yes it is. This article is for documenting exactly that, not doing OR on a list of people. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Then they should be incorperated as references and not external links. Zazaban 19:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of having two lists of "club members", one list in the main section of the article for the five or six "main" ones and another list in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. Both groups are part of this pop culture phenomenon, but the main group is the one most often talked about or depicted. — Mudwater 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of less-prominent musicians

There has been some debate about whether or not the less prominent members of the 27 Club should be included in the article -- see "Additions of 27 club members" and "This is a mess" above. On the one hand, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Brian Jones are the ones most often mentioned, and depicted in artwork. On the other hand, other famous musicians dying at age 27 definitely seems to be a part of the pop culture phenomenon that is the 27 Club. So, as I stated before, I really think the best compromise is to have two separate lists in the article. I'm going to go ahead and put the less famous musicians back into the article, but in a separate list, in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. It will still be necessary to "patrol" this second list, to make sure that non-notable musicians are not added. — Mudwater 00:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

A pop-culture phenomenon or a statistical quirk? The real phenomenon is that lots of greater and lesser musicians have died young ... bad choices or bad luck ... or bad company. (What really happened to Bobby Fuller?) Hundreds and hundreds of dead young musicians. Pick another age, you can find a few - or more? This man's opinion is that the subject might better be explored in an article about "musicians who died young." The age of 27 is either coincidental or a mean or medium or something. Coping with the pressures of celebrity? Twang (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of a deletion review here

I feel the topic truly is notable, and was considering a deletion review myself. Good work!--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 19:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert Johnson

He isn't very well-known, but his place on the list, or at least the description next to his name, doesn't do him justice. He's the grandfather of rock & roll and influenced far more artists than simply Jimi Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eric Clapton. Furthermore, he is most notable not only because he influenced future musicians, but because he was a true genius; he changed music history. Cami Solomon 02:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Robert Johnson was a musical genius and highly influential on rock music. If you think you can improve his "fame" blurb, while still keeping the explanation to just a few words long, like it is for the other musicians, I'd say go for it. But, because the article is about the 27 Club, and not about who's a genius or important, Johnson should stay in the second group. See "This is a mess" and "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" above. — Mudwater 00:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If he had died after 1969 he probably would have been included. --Jagz 03:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

True. He does "deserve" to be included because he influenced most of the other artists on the list (at least indirectly), but remember that this article was only allowed to stay in existence on the basis of the t-shirts and other references, none of which seem to included Johnson on the core list. Anyway, I editted his description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.68.106 (talk) 03:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Casey Calvert

R.I.P. Casey Calvert, who passed away recently at the age of 26. Too soon, for such a talented and popular musician. And also too soon for inclusion in this article. This, according to these stories on the MTV, AOL Music, and Cleveland Leader web sites. — Mudwater 23:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Richey James Edwards

He went missing at 27 - born in the same year as Kurt Cobain and died the year after. Hasn't been pronounced dead, so not quite appropriate for inclusion, but worth noting nonetheless.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 12:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Tupac Shakur

I think that Tupac Shakur should be on the 27 list, he died at age 27 and is one of the most influential artists of the 90s and the history of his music genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.143.238 (talk) 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Tupac Shakur was 25 when he died. — Mudwater 12:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

2Pac aint' dead mayn Zerocannon (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Near misses

I would like to suggest the removal of a new section that was recently added to the article -- "Other well-known musicians who died within 1 month of the 27 club". These musicians are not one of the five who are the main members of the 27 club, and, since they were not 27 when they died, they are not "auxiliary" club members either, so, I think they should not be listed. Also, where do you draw the line? Why not those who missed it by two months, or a year? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It's been 8 days and no one has said anything about this, so I'm going to delete the section. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Terry Kath

Terry Kath was 31 when he died, he shouldn't be included on this list, whether it is restricted to the main five or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.56.226 (talk) 05:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed his entry from the list. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 10:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain's age

Why is Cobain even in this list he was not 27? just because he would have turned 27 a month or so after his death is no reason to include him. If he wanted to be in the 27 club as his sister stated he should have waited a couple of months to kill himself. Just because the current generation wants a cult icon like the original 4 is no reason to include him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.161.217 (talk) 23:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain is in this list because (1) he was 27 years old when he died -- look it up -- and (2) he is generally included with Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison in the pop culture phenomenon that is the 27 Club. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The Da-da-de-da-da Code

The recent book The Da-da-de-da-da Code by Robert Rankin has, as a major plot element, the idea that Robert Johnson (and his infamous deal with the devil at the crossroads) is the source of the 27 Club (although he doesn't call it that).

“ Johnny Kidd, out of Johnny Kidd and the Pirates, Pig Pen out of the Grateful Dead, Brian Jones, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain—the list goes on. It is not a coincidence. You see, they all had one thing in common: they were all Robert Johnson fans. ”

I bring this up for two reasons (or maybe three). One, I think this suggests that the canonical list of five that the article currently features may not be as canonical as it suggests; two, Johnny Kidd should possibly be added to the article somewhere; and three, maybe, possibly this book should be mentioned somewhere in the article. But maybe not. :)

In re. my first point (that the "canonical five" are not as canonical as the article suggests), I checked most of the references in the article, and I found little or no evidence in any of them to suggest that these five really need to be singled out. They are probably the best known, but I saw nothing to suggest that there;s anything else which distinguishes them. I'd also like to see a citation for the claim "There is some debate as to the criterion used to include musicians who died at the age of 27 in the '27 Club'". Please note that Wikipedia debate doesn't count and shouldn't be mentioned in the article. :)

I'd try to fix it, but I don't want to trigger an edit war, and anyway, I don't have time right now, so I'm just tossing this all out for further discussion. I'll try to check back, but I'm on indefinite long-term wikibreak, so it may be a while. Xtifr _tälk 09:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Minor correction: Johnny Kidd was 31 when he died (at least according to Wikipedia, although that's not a reliable source), so Rankin got that wrong, and Kidd shouldn't be added. Sorry for the confusion. cheers, Xtifr _tälk 09:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Richey James Edwards

Disappeared at age 27. It is unknown whether he is dead or alive, but he at least deserves a mention. Zazaban (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

and is now dead officially, so he should be included in the list --Soul Eater (talk) 17:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Hawthorne Heights

I removed the section on the member of this band who passed. I apologize to fans of this band, but this is a list of "notable" musicians, not teeny bopper bands. Just because he was in the age range and died, doesn't make him or his passing "notable". If one of the Wiggles died, I doubt their death would be mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.205.240 (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Linda Jones

Linda Jones, who was Aretha Franklin's and Glady's Knight's inspiration needs to be put on this list.. Here's a link to one of her songs on youtube [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruth E (talk • contribs) 00:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Levi Kereama

I hardly think he should be added to this list, even the list of less prominent musicians. He was an Australian Idol contestant and released 3 top 40 singles that were rarely heard on radio, if at all. I don't think thats deserving of a mention, as he is hardly well-know, even in Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.67.161 (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even sure that Levi Kareama was 27. I realize that some news reports indicated he was, but Australian news outlets The Daily Telegraph and Live Newslisted Kareama as 23 years old. Should he be removed from the list until we know for sure? Powsamurai (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Musicians who died at 26 or 28

Recently an editor deleted a section of this article, called "Notable musicians who died at the age 26 or 28". A similar section was removed in the past -- see #Near misses above. I'd like to reopen the discussion about this here on the talk page. So, do you think that this article should include a list of notable musicians who died at age 26 or age 28? Please post your opinion here so that we can establish more of a consensus. I'll start.

• No. The article is about the 27 Club, which is really two things, both in the realm of popular culture -- a list of five famous musicians who died at age 27, and also the phenomenon of many other notable musicians having died at age 27. Therefore, notable musicians who died at the age or 26 or 28 are not part of this, and should not be included in the article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
• Absolutely not -- Whole article is superstititious nonsense of questionable notability to begin with, but a section on info that doesn't even meet the criteria for that superstition has no reason to be here. DreamGuy (talk) 21:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

• I was going to ask a similar question, after seeing that Nick Drake had died at the age of 26. I dont think adding a section for those who died at 26 and 28 is too unspecific, so I'm for it. Sir Richardson (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

• As Am I: For The ages of 26 and 28 show the statistical increase of musicians that die at 27, which was listed in the article. ZenCopain (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)