Talk:Gibraltarians

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Ethnic group, cultural group or nation?

Should the article say that Llanitos are an ethnic group a cultural group or a nation? I'm not sure we can find citations for any of them, but if we can, that would be a good start. I don't like "ethnic group" because ethnicity means race. It would mean that the link between Gibraltarians was a genetic one, when in fact Gibraltarians are a mix of Maltese, Genoese etc. The term would also exclude Jewish Gibraltarians, Indian Gibraltarians etc. from being considered Gibraltarain people. More appropriate would be "cultural group" as what links us is our culture, language, community etc. Nation also works, but a citation for it would be good. Opinions? Saluton (talk) 18:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what you say about "ethnic group" not being suitable here. I would say "nation" as "cultural group" seems to be used more to describe people with very similar cultures, from different geographical locations (eg. Latin Europeans). --Gibmetal 77^talk 23:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was deleted as "trolling" by Gibmetal. Please, try to debate something before erasing it without explanation. The title of the section questions whether to label the Gibraltarian comunity as an ethnic group, a cultural group or a nation. This is an interesting issue, due to the differences within those terms. I tried to contribute by saying:

I don't agree. Indeed, Gibraltarians are not an ethnic group, neither are they a nation (From the definition of Nation in Wikipedia: "as an example, the United Kingdom is an internationally recognised sovereign state, which is also referred to as a country and whose inhabitants have British nationality. It is however traditionally divided into four home nations or home countries— - England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.").

Llanitos share a culture, and to some degree, they are a cultural group. A nation is formed quite naturally and shares, in it's majority, a common history and ancestry. If you want to affirm positively that Gibraltar is a nation, you should provide sources and such as it is really hard to imagine a garrison as a nation. Even a city: Italian historic cities, which have been independent since ancient times and have a much richer history and a much more homogenous ancestry are not labelled as nations anywhere. Why is this the case of Gibraltar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.53.209 (talk) 21:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sourcing it!

It would be great, though, if you can find a source not directly related to the "Oficial Government of Gibraltar" nor focused at "attempting to redefine the status of Gibraltar and thereby enable the discussions between Britain and Spain over the future of the territory to move forward". Not really neutral sources, don't you think?

Anyway, the article is better today than yesterday. Cheers!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.53.209 (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are NO DISCUSSIONS between Britain and Spain about the future of Gibraltar possible according to unambiguous statements by HMG. --Gibnews (talk) 19:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gibnews, I just copypasted the abstract of the book referenced. Those words are not mine, but literally taken from the provided webpage. If you do not agree, you can yell at Gibmetal (as he posted the source) or at the author of the book cited, namely, Peter Gold, also a fellow Gibraltarian, guess. Take it easy. Cremallera (talk) 19:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Native Gibraltarians

Unlike most other places, Gibraltar enjoys a very varied ethnic and religious demography. Indeed we have a Christian Chief Minister, an atheist Leader of the Opposition, a Hindu speaker and a Jewish mayor. All of whom are native Gibraltarians. RedCoat10 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait. The Chief Minister and the Mayor are not the same thing in Gibraltar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 09:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, they're not the same thing. RedCoat10 • talk 10:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Native Population

The native population did not "quit". They not only left the Rock in 1704. They were forced to do so. Please, let's tell the story as it happened. The actual redaction is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.63.38 (talk) 09:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, they left the Rock out of their own volition (see the terms of surrender). -RedCoat10 • talk 10:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The terms of surrender do not prove an historical fact. You should not forget that Gibraltarian people surrendered after fighting. After being besieged. And that proves, indeed, that wasn't their will to leave their homes. It's not like they went out and told Rooke "be my guest". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.63.38 (talk) 11:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember that Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. It has been historically documented that, after Gibraltar was captured, the inhabitants were given the option of staying provided they take the oath of allegiance to Charles III as required by the terms of surrender (that is to say, they were not "kicked out"). However, the article does not claim that they left contentedly, nor does it claim they were forced/coerced to leave—'forced' is after all a fairly strong word and not to mention subjective—but simply that they left. -RedCoat10 • talk 15:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunately this article is clearly written from a neutral and unbiased point of view. Spanish people left. But British Minorcans (prior to 1802, that is) were forced to leave their homes, obviously (it must be obvious, because no reference is provided): Other groups include Minorcans (forced to leave their homes when Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.45.29 (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The edit is cited, if you don't like it, that is not sufficient reason for removing it. If you wish to discuss an alternative you are welcome to do so. However, accusing other editors of bias is a sure fire way of entenching attitudes. I suggest you rethink your comments and refactor the above edit. Reviewing talk page guidlines would help see WP:TPG. You should also review WP:3RR and WP:NPOV. Regards. Justin talk 09:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And please drop the sarcasm, it's not helping. RedCoat10 • talk 10:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Justin, it seems that we are reaching a new standard here in Wikipedia! Censoring comments in the talk pages because you feel that they are "bad faith comments". That's gross.

I'll just copypaste what you've erased on your account: It is not cited. A source supporting that "Minorcans" were forced to leave, please? And a proper explanation of why "Andalusia" should be preferred to "Spain" as a broader context? Gibraltarian people stays in Andalusia, really? If so, why don't we break up "Mainland UK" into Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland also?. Have a nice day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.39.103 (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, if you feel the need to have your provocative posting remain so be it. You're the one it reflects upon. Justin talk 11:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for listing Andalusia rather than the whole of Spain is because this section lists the Regions with significant populations and not just countries. Gibraltarians living in the UK are spread out fairly evenly throughout the entire country as they study in any of the UK universities (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). In Spain however, Gibraltarian residents are much more concentrated in this region, particularly the comarcas of Campo de Gibraltar and Costa del Sol due to their proximity to Gibraltar (as they tend to commute). --Gibmetal 77^talk 11:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, some Gibraltarian people lives and works in Spain. And significant portion of them does so in Andalusia...