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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Feeline (talk | contribs) at 14:12, 25 October 2009 (→Propaganda). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Noting Changes in Current Addition

How is this categorised under "memory"? This should be under "child sexual abuse" or, at the very least, "self-help." That it's categorised under "memory" shows that the critics are manipulating this entry. Memory is merely one aspect of the book, and although the criticism has been addressed in great detail in the latest edition, there is plenty more there to the book than a discussion of survivors memories.

The reference to the Australian critical study was to page 2 of the study instead of page 1, so the reference was out of context. It should be made clear that the "study" was a survey conducted among an organization of allagedly falsely accused sexual abusers, which is why the link needs to be made page 1, not page 2.

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Just a suggestion--perhaps the "negative review" listed in the external links section should be removed, since it's not a review by any established reviewer of note (like, say, the Times Book Review) but rather by a guy with a pret-ty big axe to grind, judging by not just the "review" itself but by the rest of the site which is unabashedly anti-feminist. Thoughtful criticism is one thing but the "review" reads like an angry teenage boy pissed off at his ex-girlfriend--he manages to bash lesbians, survivors of sexual abuse and all feminists in one fell swoop.

64.132.218.4 16:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The current addition of "The Courage to Heal" uses different language and recognises the occurance of false memories or confabulation of memories. Older additions did use very bold and misleading language, however it has been remedied. This is a text used by many survivors who have continious memories of Sexual Abuse and the techniques used in the current addition, specifically writing about the trauma, are shown to be helpful in healing (similar to exposure therapies used with survivors)

This is a 600 page book, false memory syndrome should not be the only notable feature although it may be pop psychology's favorite topic.

Feel free to add this information to the article. MaxMangel 03:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Just want to add that I feel that this article does a disservice to the book. While I think the anti repressed memory people have a point, even the fact that this article is filed under "memory" and not another topic tells the story of its hijacking. I wish the RMF people would build their own page and simply offer a link from the CTH page to theirs for people who wanted to learn more about "repressed memory."

Mijames 21:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article Cleanup

This article has gone bad due to poor edits from people probably ignorant of wiki policies. Firstly, if you are going to do masses of edits, get a login name.

Second, sign your edits on the discussion page using four tildas - it really isn't that hard.

Thirdly, let's try for a little less bias and POV statements in the article. Keep sentences factual. I haven't had the time for the wiki for a while and it is very disappointing that so many of the articles I have started or worked on have gone so bad. MaxMangel 15:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Currently there is a long list of external links to "Other references relevant to recovered memories". WP:EL has clear guidelines on what external links should or should not be added to an article. Specifically, it recommends against including

Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.

I recommend this extra section of external links be removed, since none of them seem to be about The Courage to Heal. First, thought, I thought it would be a good idea to float my proposal on the talk page. This is a controversial subject and perhaps things have been worked out this way for a good reason. If no-one objects I will eventually remove the section. Anyone who believes the links are good references, but not directly related, could perhaps move them to another more relevant article. Katherine Tredwell 07:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess another editor agreed with me. The article looks better now. Katherine Tredwell 18:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

reverting recent additions of OR and synthesis

I have reverted the 4/9/08 additions to the page of OR without sources and synthesis of ideas.ResearchEditor (talk) 02:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

removed miscategorization

I have removed the category pseudoscience, since the topic does not qualify under the wiki-definition of this. ResearchEditor (talk) 02:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not so sure... See this book review by Robert Sheaffer (I read it originally in Skeptical Inquirer). —Cesar Tort 02:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should be an embedded reference, not an EL. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 13:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 14:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Propaganda

The article reads like a piece of propaganda from the all-recovered-memory-is-false-memory crowd. It also contained factual errors. I have performed several revisions, which I believe are only the beginning of cleaning up the mess.

The first paragraph was at best misleading. Recovering memory is not the "primary thrust" of the book at all; the book is 600 pages long and only a couple of chapters out of that deal with memory at all, let alone the recovery of it. I have removed that sentence and replaced it with one that more accurately describes the book's purpose. Following that was a claim that the book created a false-memory industry. No citations backed up the claim. I removed it.

The second paragraph did not do justice to the controversy surrounding the book, as it spoke only of the negative reaction and not the positive. I added a couple of sentences to the paragraph to amend that.

The Overview section sought to give the impression that there is no evidence for the claim that traumatic memories may be repressed. In fact, the authors provide multiple references. I have edited the Overview to include this.

The list of chapters given included "Honoring the Truth". In fact, that chapter does not exist in the 4th edition. I removed it from the list, and added a missing chapter: References.

Also in the Overview, there was the following statement: "The Courage to Heal was part of the vision that childhood sexual abuse could be discovered with no corroborating evidence beyond a vague set of symptoms." This reeks with bias. "Part of the vision" doesn't really mean anything. The "vague set of symptoms" were never defined; as far as I can tell, the authors are in fact extremely specific. A reference to a book about "moral panic" was included; that belongs not in this article but in the article about moral panic. I decided that the sentence was irredemable and removed it. The article also failed to acknowledge that the authors have come to recognize the reality of false memory syndrome; I have included a quote that shows that in fact they have, in the most recent edition.

That's all for now; I hope to tackle more of the problems later.Feeline (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to remove the See Also section and the box about Satanic Ritual Abuse. The See Also section was full of stuff about false memory syndrome and was not relevant. The book is not about Satanic Ritual Abuse, and mentions false memory syndrome only indirectly. Both sections were inappropriate and being used to mislead.Feeline (talk) 14:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved and titled per WP:TALK
The first paragraph is a lead. It should summarize the whole article. Citations in the lead are optional. The "caused an industry of false memory" is discussed extnesively in the Criticisms section, which is where the sources are. I have adjusted the content per your comments above regarding the relative weight given to recovering memories. When "cleaning up the mess" please ensure that you rely on reliable sources.
If sources can be found that discuss positive impact, please add them to the page. The sources you added are certainly not reliable - amazon reviews can't be used for anything and to aggregate them is original research. The overall rating in stars is also meaningless and inappropriate. Please get real sources that are appropriate for use in this page. Familiarizing yourself with our guidelines on reliable sources and verifiability (WP:RS and WP:V) would be the first step. The reaction in the scholarly community, particularly with experts in memory, is that it's a scientifically inaccurate book that primarily causes damage, not healing, by forcing patients to attribute all symptoms and problems to a nonexistent set of memories, and then cementing their identities on these memories. Lots o' sources agree, so that certainly can't be removed.
Regards the evidence that traumatic memories are always or even routinely repressed, it is verifiable that the "science" and discussion behind memories and repression in the book is flawed, if not outright false. Bass and Davis have acknoweldged they have no training and not updated the book to keep pace with what science has learned about memories since its original publication. Again, this is verifiable in reliable sources.
The overview section is clearly about the 2008 20th edition, not the 4th edition. Honouring the truth is therefore an appropriate chapter inclusion.
"Part of the vision" is sourced to Philip Jenkins, an eminent scholar on moral panics. The inclusion of SRA and Michelle Remembers is part of Jenkins' criticisms, sourced to the same book and should remain. That it focused any attention on SRA, thus feeding the panic, certainly should remain, as should it's change in nomenclature from satanic to sadistic.
Given the invovlement with the SRA moral panic, the template is appropriate. TCTH was part of the phenomenon, and a considerable contributing factor. Given its inaccurate focus on and summary of memories, the see also links were also important and appropriate. I've reverted your changes, bar the few that had merit. Please use sources, rather than your own experience, to adjust the page. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 13:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you aware that one of the Wikipedia:Five Pillars is "neutrality?" Where is the neutrality in this article? You have nothing but a mass of negative press, and when someone tries to redress the balance, you simply remove what they have written. The opening paragraph may summarize the article, but the article itself is a blatant, shameful violation of Wikipedia standards.
Have you read the first edition? I have (just yesterday in fact), and there is nothing in there that encourages people to create false memories. To the contrary, it says that remembering will happen on its own timetable, not yours. How does that encourage false memories?
Are you aware that your version of the article contains no information about the actual book? Can you show me which parts of the book encourage false memory creation? How about some quotes? I would be very interested, not to mention surprised, if you can produce anything whatever.
What does "Michelle Remembers" have to do with "The Courage to Heal"?
"The overview section is clearly about the 2008 20th edition, not the 4th edition." What? The 2008 edition IS the 4th edition. Do you know anything about this book at all? You don't, do you? As a matter of fact, the 20th anniversary 4th edition does NOT contain "Honoring the Truth", and I can state that with confidence as a copy of it it is sitting right next to me.Feeline (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrality does not mean "ignore the criticism", though that's a common misperception. There's a lot of criticism. It's all sourced and linked. WP:UNDUE states that we're supposed to represent the opinion of the scholarly majority - which is mostly negative. The APA "reference" that you put in the article was a dustcover comment - see here. That's not a reliable source. I was going to integrate the "source" until I couldn't figure out where it was published - it wasn't the APA.
I certainly wouldn't waste time reading the first edition. If I was going to read anything I would read the most recent edition, but even that is unlikely. What I have read is the extensive criticisms written about the book in secondary sources, which is what we are urged to use. The discussion of Michelle Remembers occurs in Moral Panic, as I've said before. Note that this indicates that Honoring the Truth is indeed part of the book, apparently the 3rd edition, though the 4th edition does not seem to [6]. I'll correct accordingly. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 18:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think neutrality means "Ignore the criticism." I don't believe _anybody_ thinks that neutrality means that. I didn't even remove the criticism; surely even you have to admit that. I left it very much intact. I simply tried to present the opposite point of view. That's what neutrality means--presenting both points of view. I will do more research, but I find it hard to believe that there is complete consensus among all experts that this book is (1) primarily about recovered memory (especially since the merest perusal shows otherwise) and (2) somehow written so as to encourage false memory.
Thank you, at least, for not reverting my corrections to the table of contents. I had been under the impression that you simply revert every change that is not made by you; now it looks as if that may not be the case 100% of the time.
I have restored the POV tag. Please leave that in place. Isn't it obvious that we are having a dispute?Feeline (talk) 14:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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