Talk:Extraversion and introversion

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I transferred the main article here, away from the entry, Introversion and extroversion because this is the most common usage in psychology. Indeed, Eysenck frequently used the phrase, extraversion-introversion. I do not mean to imply that extraversion is normal or better than introversion. In fact, I think it is important to depict both orientations as having both positive and negative sides.

I am willing to discuss this issue further here, and I also want to work with all interested parties to develop this page further and make it as accurate as possible. I saw in some of the previous discussions on the topic that this has been a somewhat controversial entry.

Best regards, Jcbutler 21:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Under what criteria do you determine extraversion to be the most common spelling? Merriam-Webster lists it as the variation to extroversion. —C.Fred (talk) 05:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the dictionary may not be the best resource for this discussion. My dictionary has an entry for ain't, the classic example of poor usage. Please see the list of reasons I posted for further rationale. Jcbutler 17:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

A comment by reader:

This article is the worst bullshit I have ever read. It is as far from the psychological explanations of both the term 'extraversion' and the 'introversion' as it possibly can be. What this person descriped is the common perception of these two terms, the meaning of which, in the context of psychology, has nothing to do with what has been said.

Wow, the worst bullshit you've ever read? As far from psychological explanations as possible? I'm really curious as to what you think should be here. Granted, the article is not perfect, and the dictionary definitions are not entirely accurate, but I don't think it is that bad. What were you expecting? Jcbutler 07:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote much of the original content. However, I won't feel bad if a more knowledgeable person edits it to make a better article And I welcome constructive criticism.

Constructive = "the dictionary definitions are not entirely accurate. A better definition, from a psychological perspective, would be....". "Jung's theory is misrepresented. He actually said....", "the quoted study has since been discredited" etc.

Non-constructive = "this article is bullshit", "this is nothing but a cliche", "this is predjudiced against introverts/extraverts", etc. Fionah 10:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there's a lot of bullshit here. The article makes introversion sound like a personality defect by implying that introverted people are not assertive or social people. Nothing could be further from the truth. Introverted people are hard-wired to work from internal energy and stimulation, not external. We're not social aberrations, our brains just operate differently. Extroverts just assume their personality type is the ideal for human behaviour. It's not. Being loud and obnoxious and talking without thinking first are hardly redeemable personality traits. Thank God there are clear thinking introverts out there to balance out the overbearing behaviour of extraverts.

I'm a bit worried that this may be interpereted as insulting, so I'd like to apologize in advance. Now then, I just wanted to say that the person who made the above comment sounds rather hypocritical. First he/she said that "extroverts just assume their personality type is the ideal for human behaviour." Although this may be true when reffering to major extraverts in society, I don't think that it was a good idea to group all of them together like that. I'm sure there are a healthy number of extraverts that understand introversion, or that at least understand that both introversion and extraversion have their good sides and bad sides. But what really shocked me was when this person said this: "Thank God there are clear thinking introverts out there to balance out the overbearing behaviour of extraverts." Now I'd like to speak to the author of the above comment: Weren't you just saying that extraverts think that they are superior to introverts? Now it sounds like you think that introverts are superior to extraverts, which is the same mistake in the opposite direction. Don't get me wrong; I'm a pretty introverted person myself, and I like to believe that both ends of the spectrum have their ups and downs. You, however, only seem to be stressing the negative aspects of extraversion and the positive aspects of introversion. It's nice that you're supporting introversion, but only so long as you're trying to equalize, not dominate. The world's hungriest paperweight 19:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Reasons to use ExtrAversion instead of ExtrOversion

1. Extraversion is the original spelling of the word introduced by Jung and used by Eysenck, the two biggest theorists in this area.

2. Extraversion is the term used on most (if not all) major personality tests, e.g. NEO, EPQ, MBTI.

3. The etymology is from the German word extraversion, from Latin extra- + versus, past participle of vertere to turn (Merriam-Webster Online).

4. "Extra" is a more appropriate prefix because it denotes "outside the scope of something," as in extraordinary, extravagant, extraterrestrial, or extra credit. Similarly, extraverts go outside of themselves for social interaction and stimulation, as opposed to introverts who stay within themselves and "introspect."

5. Extraversion is the term most frequently used by psychologists and professional journals in psychology.

6. PsycINFO, the comprehensive database of research articles in psychology provides the following search results:

1270 articles found for: ((EXTROVERSION))

7274 articles found for: ((EXTRAVERSION))

167 articles found for: ((EXTROVERT))

275 articles found for: ((EXTRAVERT))

7. Extraversion is more commonly used on the internet:

453,000 for EXTROVERSION

1,140,000 for EXTRAVERSION

8,100 for EXTROVERSION(Google Scholar)

35,800 for EXTRAVERSION (Google Scholar)

8. Extraversion is the preferred term in Corsini's Dictionary of Psychology and four volume Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd Ed.)

Jcbutler 17:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

9. The article on the Myers Briggs Type Indicator uses the extravert spelling. —C.Fred (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. The "O" spelling is a deviation, the original comes from latin prefix "extra-". Too bad its inconsistent with "introversion", which doesn't keep the spelling form "intra-" Rad3k (talk) 05:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Another good external link on Introversion

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch This article became very popular in '03 and generated many responses. I'm surprised its not in the external links.

Fellow Introvert --72.202.129.98 16:18, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

So why not add it? Fionah 10:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Extraverts or introverts

My ex-classmates used to be preoccupied with themselves. They didn't care about strangers and didn't have eye-contact with them. This sounds like introvertion. However, with friends and relatives they were talkative and even talked a lot. They smiled and laughted out loud. This sounds like extravertion. So, are they extraverts or introverts? 213.240.234.212 21:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually Wikipedia is not the place to discuss this, but anyway: extraversion/introversion is not such a firm dividing line. Nobody is 100% extravert or 100% introvert. Just like nobody is 100% hetero or 100% homo. It's not true that introverts are always quiet and lonely people who are uncaring of strangers. Introverts can be just as sociable as extroverts. But introverts just handle stimulus's differently then extroverts. Extroverts get the energy out of their environment, and thrive well with many different stimuli. Introverts get the energy out of their inner world, and are easily irritated when they feel like getting to many stimulu. It's not just the way a person acts, it's the way a person thinks. And that might be hard to determine.
By the way, you shouldn't base to much on the information from this article. It's a bit crappy. I might start making some plans to improve it. - Face 16:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not so concerned about the spelling, although I tend to lean toward intro/extro... but that is just me. In my opinion introversion is more about how you react to people (like described above) -- introverts are emotionally drained when dealing with others, extroverts gain energy. In that way, an introvert can be "extroverted" but it takes more out of them. Which is why you will find your introvert friends taking long walks in the middle of a party, or hiding in their room reading a book at the end of the week. This is also why extroverts want to go out again right after having a great time with friends. Hope this helps.(MTW)--Meghanwier 01:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

What about cross-culture socializing, when it comes to a racial supportive community. Does all these theories prevail? In such cases an Introvert is being made, not from his genes, but from his community

Ambiversion

The use of the term ambiversion suggests a misunderstanding of the concept, and the specifics of the explanation given here are further evidence of that misunderstanding. I don't know of any type system that doesn't place introversion and extroversion along a spectrum or polarity. Everything I've read on the subject also accepts that: most non-shy introverts are often "outgoing" in circumstances where they can speak on a topic of interest without extemporaneous response to incoming stimuli (e.g., giving presentations) and, also, that many people appear to have only a slight preference in one direction or another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.12.136.157 (talk) 20:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Definition of the two terms

The definition of introversion is written as a negation of extraversion - it needs a rewrite so that the strengths of introversion are presented in contrast to the strengths of extraverion. --TAOdesign 22:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

No mention of Socionics? Fixed.

I noticed that there was no mention of extroversion and introversion as understood by socionics. This was regrettable to the west, because the east is well ahead of us as regards the understanding of psychological functions. Although I've only written a short stub, I trust that others can see the rationale for expanding on the discussion of introversion and extroversion as understood by socionists. tcaudilllg 01:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The mentioning of socionics in the article seemed out of place without its inclusion in the article header and a link to the socionics article in the footer. Adjusted.

Is there any evidence that ambiversion is a majority view, or any that suggests the trait a continuum and not a dicotomy?

That reminds me... haven't there been Jungian theorists who have said, in peer reviewed work, that the opposing attitude comes into even polarity with the dominant attitude as one matures? Actually Jung says it himself in Aion, if I am not mistaken.

Tcaudilllg 20:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Bias toward extraversion

I find there to be a particular bias of definition towards extraversion. That's not to say that this article violates WP:NPOV, but I find it lacks an equal amount of focus on both topics. Connell66 09:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think these two articles should be split into two separate articles. Connell66 09:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Tcaudilllg 18:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Introversion and Extraversion are two extremes of a personality dimension. Some people are mostly introverted, some mostly extraverted, some at varying points in the spectrum. For example, I score mostly introverted but with a touch of extraversion. A friend of mine scores almost completely in the middle on measures of introversion/extraversion. Spliting this article would be a bit like splitting the human height article into "tall people" and "short people". Also, if you were to create two articles, most of the content (e.g. the Jungian and Eysenkian theories) would be replicated. Maybe there should be separate sections within the article entitled "Introversion" and "Extraversion"; however, I don't think a complete split is warranted. Fionah 09:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

Acting against type?

"A person who acts introverted in one scenario may act extraverted in another, and people can learn to act “against type” in certain situations."

What is meant by this? Most type theories posit that type is inborn and unchangable, and so prescient a factor that to act "against" it puts one at serious psychosocial risk. Tcaudilllg 20:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The key phrase is "in certain situations". A person may learn to modify their behaviour without necessarily changing type. For example, in social situations an introvert may make a conscious effort to speak up whereas an extravert may decide not to interupt. Also, I'm not sure that all type theories see type as unchangeable: for example, there is some evidence that people show changes in personality as they age. Fionah 09:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

vs

"vs"?? Good god. —AldeBaer 16:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

lol

Can we find a picture of a hotter introvert? That chick is ugly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.59.254.169 (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

wtf.?

"By the way, if this is someone you know by the name of AJ its probably a good idea to let him take you out to dinner, if your name is Alyssa of course" seriously. thats not cool.

how the hell did that get put in there? 68.79.57.56 00:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

My best guess is some guy named AJ wanted to get a date with some girl named Alyssa. I removed it though. And here's a message for "AJ" himself: Don't vandalize Wikipedia just to get a date! Jeez! The world's hungriest paperweight 02:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Horrible picture of introvert must be removed(Urgently)

Please, someone find a picture of a person reading alone that doesn't look as strange. The awful purple "dress" the woman is wearing suggests she tries to go against societal norms. Not to mention the fact, she appears to be sitting at an inappropriate place in the library. Many introverts dress and behave like average folks. Some of us read alone in a libary without standing out or drawing negative attention to ourselves. Aikaterinē 20:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I really think you're overreacting. I don't see anything wrong with what she's wearing or where she's reading, and aside from those there's nothing wrong with the picture. Its purpose is to serve as a visual demonstrator of what a (stereotypical) introvert is like. Why replace it? The world's hungriest paperweight 20:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the picture represents a "stereotypical" introvert, if there even is such a thing. Why replace it you ask? The article should contain a picture of an introvert that doesn't make extroverts laugh.Aikaterinē 23:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see the problem. How would it make anyone laugh? Besides, if it bothers you that much, why not just try replacing it yourself? The world's hungriest paperweight 23:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I just saw that picture, and now I am fully on my quest on finding a proper picture. My guess, there would be thousands of introverted people pictures in the net. Also, it DOES make extroverts laught. bladez (talk) 13:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Aikaterinē.. If I walked into library, the first person I would notice is that girl. She's sitting right next to a window in a wooden chair (in a really awkward place) with a long purple dress on. She stands out. Introverts would gravitate to the back of the library in secluded seats at the far end of a deserted aisle. This girl looks like she's trying to stand out. Not "stereotypical" at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.81.158 (talk) 05:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Aikaterinē. She looks like a normal girl in the bookstore, nothing "Introvert" about it. kashimjamed (talk) 20:36, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

She's by herself reading a book, and that is a more typically introverted activity than extraverted. If you can find a picture that somehow captures introversion better, then replace it. I think the comments about her taste in fashion, appropriateness, and whether or not she is trying to attract attention are a bit silly. And she is clearly in a bookstore, not a library. --Jcbutler (talk) 00:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Horrible picture of extrovert must be removed(Urgently)

Wait - what about this:
Extraverts thrive in large groups.

That's a straight up dude in that red dress.--Endless Dan 17:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

yup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.6.160 (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

They are all clearly raging extroverts there, a better picture could not have been selected to illustrate this concept. 205.251.209.174 23:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Still, you can do a better job. There must be COUNTLESS pictures of extroverts on the net. bladez (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The Anti-socionics movement

I've discerned the existence of an anti-socionics awareness movement on Wikipedia; my earlier edits have been reversed. I'll be keeping this page on watch to make sure its mentioning of socionics stays put. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.24.227 (talk) 07:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a "movement," but my concern at least, is that socionics is not scientific, and not consistent with modern trait models in psychology. I'm not going to fight a small mention of socionics here, but keep in mind that the dichotomous model of I/E proposed by socionics is not consistent with the theory and research presented here.

By the way, as I said on the socionics discussion board some time ago, I'd still like to see some peer reviewed, scientific research on the matter, preferably in English. A PsycInfo search on "socionics" revealed exactly ZERO results in the recorded empirical literature. Incidentally, a comparable search on "extraversion" revealed 7648. --Jcbutler (talk) 00:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Awful article

This article gives a totally wrong description of extroverts vs. introverts. Some extroverts spend so much time and energy on other people, that they need time alone. Some introverts love being the center of attention. I usually recognize extroverts because they talk about people, and introverts don't, however, that's not fool proof either. Maybe the article should be split between popular word usage and the usage of these words within specific sciences? Dybdahl (talk) 21:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe some extroverts need more time alone than others, and maybe some introverts are more social than others. However, keep in mind that this article is about extroverts and introverts in general. The article already mentions (though not often) that extroversion and introversion are like two ends of a spectrum. No doubt most extroverts have some introverted qualities, and vice versa. However, when this article talks about introverts and extroverts, it's talking about the two extremes and doesn't focus too much on the gray area in between. The world's hungriest paperweight (talk) 18:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Acting 'requires' extraversion?

What utter bunk - sure, some actors might be extraverts, but speaking as an introverted actor, I can assure you that it doesn't 'require' extraversion. Although I know little about the other professions mentioned (...teaching, directing, managing, brokering...), I'd be willing to bet there are introverts in all these fields. If someone can't come up with a cite for this sentence soon, I'm removing the whole thing. 210.11.130.234 (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I re-worded it slightly. I don't know if it's true, but it should be more accurate. The world's hungriest paperweight (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree with this, acting is a prepared performance; something introverts excell at. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.64.31 (talk) 17:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Description of blood flow to the temporal lobe and extroverts needs some added detail

I wanted to make a comment about extroverts having more blood flow to the brain regarding sensory and emotions. While this is true, they also recieve more blood flow the brain in the temporal lobe, which houses memory and speech. This should probably be added. In class, I am simply amazed by the number of extroverts that can recall even the most banal of converstions, and are able to recall them at rapid speeds, which probably expains why many of them can tell a good story. (I am an introvert myself) At the same time, many of these same people stuggle with many problem solving problems such as Math or accounting that many introverts find easy (which supports the more blood flow to the frontal lobe study) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.82.74 (talk) 18:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC) Bollocks. You've got the two mixed up.

Salivation WTF?

I don't buy the thing about salivation. The "experiment" linked to is a fucking joke; the data isn't even statistically significant. Should be removed, IMHO.

Lighten up, dude. The link is just a demonstration based on more formal research that has been published in psychology journals. As for the statistical significance, no probability testing was done, but the difference they found would most likely be significant, given the size of the effect and the number of participants. --Jcbutler (talk) 18:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Shyness and introversion are not wholly separated

I would just like to point out that although introversion and shyness are two separate conditions, introverts are more prone to shyness and most introverts are in fact shy. There is definitely a great correlation between introversion and shyness and I think this should be at least noted in the article instead of giving the idea that they are completely separate. Just my opinion, I don't comment on Wikipedia too much but I thought I should mention that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.81.158 (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is this page "Favoring" Extroverts?

• I feel like some of this page is just a homage to Extraverts, to me, all this is saying that Introverts are less "Superior" to our beloved Extraverted pals. Please! extraverts and intraverts are equal divisions in the socionics theory, and one should NOT be forsaken for another. Fix that up, favoritism shouldn't be on wikipedia pages, especially on such a subject as E and I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.91.29 (talk) 11:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I feel that the page is bullshit as well. I also believe it is obvious that students never flunk out of psychology or poli sci and then major in physical science, so, the field is completely the work of retards and shows it by stinking to high heaven in every way. The word should be spelled, "extrovert". there is nothing to be gained by spelling it, "extravert". There are not two different words, "extravert" and "extrovert", as there are "intermolecular" and "intramolecular". The distinction is wasted. This distinction is an 'a' vs an 'o'. Does it matter how many people believe something? No, and when all of them are wrong (as usual in this field), the field is seen to be bullshit, ie, not worth studying. As a final indicator, the spelling of "extraordinary" is hardly important or meaningful given that the pronunciation itself, from which spelling derives its legitimacy, is not six, but only five, syllables. Rip the 'a' out of this word immediately and stop wasting real people's time. Some fucking Kraut now tells us how to spell English? My aching balls!67.232.136.227 (talk)sbillinghurst

Thank you for your constructive input, anonymous poster and sbillinghurst. Now maybe you can tell me what it is about this article that brings out such strong reactions in people! And indeed, some of my ancestors were German speaking Swiss. How did you know it was that part, and not my Irish and Norwegian heritage, that is telling you how to speak? You are quite perceptive. --Jcbutler (talk) 04:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Behavior section

I removed this part:

"Although extraverts and introverts have real personality and behavior differences, one should avoid pigeonholing or..."

Far as I know Wikipedia is not a self-help wiki, and thus, "should" avoid the uses of 'shoulds'.

Yeah, I put this back. What you deleted was a section explaining how traits need to be interpreted as continuous dimensions, not simple types. Self-help doesn't enter into it. --Jcbutler (talk) 22:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"One should avoid..." (doing such and such)

It's not the place for Wikipedia to tell people that they should quote: "avoid pigeonholing" others. Reads more like a reader's digest self help article.

Likewise on the article on racism for example. Sentences such as "One should avoid being racist and pigeonholing different races because this is bad" are not encyclopedic material.

216.239.78.148 (talk) 16:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

And once again, I say that this has nothing to do with "self help" or Readers Digest. The point of the sentence is not to tell people how they should live their lives, it's to make an important and frequently misunderstood point that personality traits are general tendencies, not absolutes. And are you seriously suggesting that the word "should" should never appear in a Wikipedia article? Please state the style guideline with that rule. In any case, I rewrote the sentence without "should." Hope that helps. --Jcbutler (talk) 19:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

"And are you seriously suggesting that the word "should" should never appear in a Wikipedia article?"

Of course, the problem is not the word 'should' itself. It's not appropriate in this particular context, there are obviously many other legitimate uses for it. What is not encyclopedic here is giving the reader guidelines in how he or she should think. "One must be careful not to pigeonhole..." would be equally as bad.216.239.78.148 (talk) 20:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I disagree. Wikipedia is full of "guidelines" for how to interpret various concepts and ideas. Now that we've both had our say, perhaps some other editors will chime in with their opinions, and we will be able to develop a consensus on this issue. I don't mind rewriting the section, but it is important to make the point that personality types should not be mistaken for stereotypes. --Jcbutler (talk) 14:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

ExtrAvert versus ExtrOvert

Whether it be Extravert or Extrovert, I do believe that the article content should match the title. Either all occurrences of "extrovert" should be changed to "extravert," or the article should be moved to Extroversion and introversion. —Chrishy 02:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC) Extraversion is for children, Introversion is for adults.~SOUP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.122.188 (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Shy extroverts

A shy extrovert is someone who wants to be around people, but who is too shy and gets anxious. 78.130.136.199 (talk) 08:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)