Talk:Chemical imbalance

I am tempted to throw this up on VfD. I did a quick check for "chemical imbalance theory" a term I have never heard of in the context of medicine or psychology before. I came up with 510 hits for the term, the vast majority from heavly POV sites with an axe to grind. If anything this is a neologism, and the article should reflect it as such. In the study of medicine, chemicals are widley known to be important, the entire field of biochemistry would be useless without this. The "chemical imbalance theory" is a term applied to talk about a view about a bias in medicine or some such. Certainly, this article does not accurately describe it--Tznkai 22:39, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Tznkai, for the feedback. Your critique spurred a search on go ofle for '"chemical imbalance" drug', which turned up 54,000 hits. Your recognition of the lack of drug industry perspective helped finding articles which can now be integrated into the article. Part of the problem is that the drug industry presents the theory as fact, rather than the reality that it is just a theory. The term has been used widely in pharmaceutical commercials by the industry, primarily by Pfizer, to promote drug use. The notion of psychiatric 'chemical imbalance' came up just today in a UPN broadcast movie, Murder of Innocence (Valerie Bertinelli as a newlywed descending into madness). Again, your feedback is appreciated. Ombudsman 23:36, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The chemical imbalance theory doesn't exist as a coheisive seperate theory from the idea that biochemistry is important, and that neurotransmitters are important. Furthermore chemical imbalance and chemical imbalance theory are not the same thing at all.--Tznkai 04:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is one of a number of articles that seems extremely lop-sided, much like psychosurgery. Chemical Imbalance is not a theory, but a hypothesised mechanism which stands or falls on its scientific merit on a case by case basis. That is, dopa mine appears to have a role in addiction, schizophrenia, parkinsons; and serotonin is sometimes implicated in depression, but that doesn't constitute a "theory". Further, it's not always clear with the change in chemicals is a symptom or a cause.Limegreen 30 June 2005 01:27 (UTC)

Rather than state that here, you should edit the article to include the above. It would be very helpful. Edwardian 5 July 2005 18:07 (UTC)

Quotes

This section should be removed. Li sting quotes is what people do when people can't be bother to summarize a point of few properly. Would anyone object? Edwardian 5 July 2005 18:07 (UTC)

By all means remove it. I don't think they are very representative either...Limegreen 6 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)

I have removed the Quotes section which consisted of the following three quotes:

"The process of diagnosis is very different in psychiatry. Since there are no clear indications of a specific biological abnormality that causes any of the psychiatric disorders, no laboratory tests have been developed to confirm or refute any psychiatric diagnosis." Richard Keefe and Philip Harvey, Understanding Schizophrenia

In 1996, psychiatrist Dav id Kaiser said, “...modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness...Patients (have) been diagnosed with ‘chemical imbalances’ despite the fact that no test exists to support such a claim, and...there is no real conception of what a correct chemical balance would look like.”

Elliot Valenstein, Ph.D., author of Blaming the Brain, stated: “There are no tests available for assessing the chemical status of a living person’s brain.” “No biochemical, anatomical, or functional signs have been found that reliably distinguish the brains of mental patients.”

They are noted here in the event that someone would like to reference them in the future. Edwardian 6 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)

= Another option: =

Maybe it's "good" to use "chemical imbalance theory," even if no one gets a bunch of search results. I think it's great that someone came up with a term for a perceived issue in society and that for doing so this piece should be worked on and developed. Furthermore, they Italic textareItalic text right about the fact that most times drugs to treat "a chemical balance that may be to blame" are very questionable. (Watch a commercial on one of these sometime.) How do we know it's not placebo effect? I've never even looked-up this subject online before, though I myself watch trends, and drug-companies treating perceived mental "disorders" is one of them; they are, after all, businesses trying to make money; an often left-unspoken rule of business is that you must create and maintain problems to make money; same with politics.

Leave this one alone and let it grow. Hopefully we'll get political scientists, scientists, watch-dogs, etc. to work on it.

Just to be completely open, t ake me for example: I was diagnosed with "ADHD" when I was very small, drugged-up all the time, and today I take nothing. I still exhibit many "symptoms," but basically just practiced self-control. Read this, for instance, once you're done: http://oldmais on.blogspot.com/2005/09/upside-with-adhd.html I didn't learn anything about this spin on "ADHD" (so maybe it's NOT a disorder?) until I read something elsewhere (I just had to find a site with info real quickly for this topic). Many "disorders" in the U.S., it seems to me, are rising with falling standards of education quality. We usually inform and inundate instead of educate and train people here in America anymore.

Prevalence of disorders (more notably ADHD and autism), based on all evidenc e known, appears to be rising because of an increased number of diagnostics, not due to a real increase in incidence (see autism epidemic for theories). These behavioral 'abnormalities' are spectrum disorders. That means that basically anyone could be put in those categories. For example, you might be 1% autistic while I might be 70% autistic. So if you wanted to increase the prevalence, you just need to move the goal post. The only ones who benefit are those who receive increased business as a result. -Jose

Good luck, let's WORK ON IT! instead of complaining.

                  John B. B.

POV

What's up with the POV tag and no discussion about it? -Jose

NPOV edit

I just took a fairly major hack at this. A lot of it seemed irrelevant to t he topic at hand (like Cautionary Measures for medication). I've tried to add more actual science (ie that there is no 'theory'), but at the same time accepting that the existence of lay conception of a theory exists. Also, it seems that content discussing the pros and cons of medication, diagnosis, and the role of the pharmaceutical industry rate only a brief mention.Limegreen 11:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

For some reason, Pfizer has stopped bombarding Americans (and the airwaves that supposedly belong to citizens, rather than corporations) with the patronizing message that poisonous drugs "correct a chemical imbalance in the brain which may be related to symptoms of depression or anxiety." Surprisingly, the chemical imbalance ta gline has not been pulled from website advertisements. After spending untold millions to promote brain damaging drugs for the sake of profit, the industry's use of unscrupulous marketing tactics incorporating the tagline merits further documentation in the article, rather than being downgraded to "only a brief mention." Ombudsman 01:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I used to make the argument that pathologizing human diversity such as ADHD is akin to saying that short and tall people have a disorder that must be treated with drugs. But just the other night in one of those magazine shows (don't remember which) they discussed how short kids are being given human growth hormone injections. It's getting way out of hand, isn't it? Neurodivergent 01:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The Chinese have been doing surgical interventions to increase height for some years! Nasty, painful stuff. Limegreen 02:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

explanation for dele tion

I'm taking this sentence out ("These criticisms appear at odds with current research, however, but may be relevant to professionals who were trained less recently.") because there is still no objective test for any mental illness, despite current research. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I've revised that sentence, as you have misunderstood the intended meaning of it. That is, recently trained professionals should be aware of more recent neuroscience research that does not emphasise chemical (im)balance.Limegreen 02:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm revising your revision because you have misunderstood my concern, that is, despite all current research (psychiatric *and* neurological), we still do not have any objective test for any mental illness. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Never mind. Looks like somebody beat me to it. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I understand your concern the first time. However, there are two parts to the claim. 1. There are no objective tests for mental illness and 2. that chemica l imbalance is used to justify medication. However, my point is that a recently trained graduate will be aware of the science discrediting 'chemical imbalance', but that has no bearing on the objective test aspect.Limegreen 03:10, 15 No vember 2005 (UTC)

The way you were wording this buries the meaning you describe here. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. It really appeared as though you were claiming that newer graduates would be up to date on some other method of diagnosis that wou ldn't be available to biochemical imbalance theorists. And, as far as I know, psychiatry is proceeding strong with the chemical imbalance theory, regardless of the lack of scientific evidence for it. Therefore, I doubt very much that recent medical grad uates will be taught anything other than what psychiatry is fed via the pharmaceutical manufacturers. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I come from a non-US science perspective, and reading this article it sounds like it's from another planet. I accept that a lot of your concerns may have some very real foundation, however, I think you also need to be aware that there are a lot of very different countries in the world, and in some of them, they may not be so applicable. Where I'm from, medical training is very science oriented, and there is the explicit acknowledgement in the training that the discipline is advancing at such speed that what is taught today may not be relevant in 10 years.Limegreen 03:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm certainly aware there are very different countries in the world and what you say here gives me hope things aren't as grim world-wide as I had feared. However, in North America, true ps ychiatric research has been abandoned in favour of drug company sponsored propaganda. And psychiatry, as a discipline, hasn't advanced much since the days of leeching and beating. Psychiatric patients are routinely punished for speaking out and question ing psychiatric authority. E. Fuller Torrey and the Treatment Advocacy Center promote increased forced drugging and use falsified figures to justify their horrible agenda. In my opinion, psychiatric patients are the last group in North America to gain t heir human rights. We've got a long, long way to go. If things are better elsewhere, then that's great. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

"E. Fuller Torrey and the Treatment Advoc acy Center promote increased forced drugging and use falsified figures to justify their horrible agenda." That's quite an accusation. I'm sure you can substantiate it, right?

You bet I can. Torrey waves around a made-up figure -- that 1,000 murders ar e committed annually by the untreated seriously mentally ill. To support it, he uses a Department of Justice study. However, the DOJ study doesn't even deal with diagnosis nor whether or not these criminals were undergoing psychiatric treatment at the t ime of their offences. In the course of his wild extrapolations, he commits grievous "rounding up" errors. Torrey has admitted to MindFreedom International that in fact he "just made up" the figure. Furthermore, Torrey and the Treatment Advocacy Center lie about the mentally ill and violence. TAC appears designed to promote psychiatric assault and nothing else. Any more questions? I'd be happy to answer them. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 19:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, you see, I meant verifiable substantiation, not second-hand claims for which we have to depend entirely on the assertions of a very involved party. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:59, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

It's completely verifiable. You can check the DoJ study and see for yourself. Please try to keep your tone a little more civil. We can agree to disagree, surely? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll try to find the quote from Torrey saying that an untreated bipolar person is equivalent, in terms of public safety, to someone with untreated tuberculosis sitting in a crowded movie theater. That would be a good example of Torrey's alarmist agenda at work. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Disputed

Hey, Ombudsman! Are you still claiming that "chemical imbalance theory" has been "repudiated", based on the compelling clinical evidence that you don't see those commercials anymore? -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Your sarcasm aside, it is interesting that pharmaceutical manufacturers (particularly the makers of Zoloft) have been taken to the wall by a grassroots organization. The fact is their SSRI advertising is misleading, bord ering on untruthful, and we called them on it. If they've had to adjust their advertising (I wouldn't know, as I don't watch TV), then that's a huge victory. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 20:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

neurochemical basis for mental illness

I took the word "once" out of the following sentence:

The term has its origins in the 'chemical hypothesis', which refers to a series of hypothesised neurochemical changes *once* thought to underly mental illness.

because the vast majority of psychiatrists believe that mental illness is as a result of neurochemistry. That's not *my* view (I believe it's the other way around, i.e. that emotional distress is the cause of neurochemical changes) but it is the prevailing view. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:37, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You need to provide evidence that psychiatrists believe this. Maybe they do, but anybody who has read the recent science shouldn't.Limegreen 02:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

What you say is true of some disorders. The neurochemistry of anxiety, from personal experience, I can tell you that it is definitely caused by thinking, and may be 're-balanced' t hrough thinking. But I don't think the same can be said of ADHD or autism, which are basically the result of neurodevelopmental differences which cannot be accounted for in any significant way via psychological factors (based on twin studies). But in these two cases I'd argue they are a form of neurodiversity, not a pathology, whereas anxiety is a pathology, as most anxiety sufferers do want to get rid of their anxiety. Neurodivergent 16:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm really surprised to read this. Please point me to the recent science because if the biochemical theory is falling down, then I'm thrilled. Every mainstream psychiatrist that I have ever talked to or read talks about chemical imbalances. What has changed? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

And all pro-psychiatry sites like the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill and the like all refer to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder as biologically based brain diseases. How recent is this science you're referring to? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You might not want to get too excited. Simple chemical imbalance s pretty much have been obsolete since the 80s, but that's not to say that they haven't been replaced with other biologically oriented theories. However, newer models don't necessarily view the brain changes as always causal, which you might see as positi ve. There are a couple of references in the external links [1], which will lead you to the following quote "recent evidence indicates that problems in information processin g within neural networks, rather than changes in chemical balance". However, the same authors that said that do still support the use of antidepressants in some instances.Limegreen 03:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I misunderstood. Ch emical balance, neural networks, whatever, it all comes down to pretending it's a brain disorder. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Some things may well not be 'brain disorders', but so say that nothing is ever a brain disorder is a big call.Limegreen 04:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Parkinson's is a brain disorder. Cancer can be a brain disorder. So far, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc. have not been shown to be brain disorders. They both obviously affect the brain just like our moods and experiences do, however, there's no evidence yet that these psychiatric disorders (or emotional illnesses or whatever you want to call them) originate in the brain. Despit e this lack of evidence, psychiatry plows on with its biological treatment with or without patients' consent. That's all I meant. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

If you re-read my post above, I explicitly said 'newer models don't necessarily view the brain changes as always causal'. To my limited knowledge, this would be especially true of depression. I believe there is evidence for a heritable component in some of these things, which is a weak form of evidence suggesting some sort of brain change. Sometimes weak evidence goes on to be confirmed (e.g., smoking>cancer) and sometimes it doesn't (e.g., aluminium>alzheimers). Science does not provide definitive answers, it just devel ops evidence in one direction or another. However, just because I think there may be a role for brain changes does not mean that I think it's only about brain changes or that I automatically support medication or compulsory treatment.Lime green 04:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I caught what you said the first time but it does seem to me that the various theories being pushed all boil down to something goes wrong (for biological or genetic or any other reason) somewhere in the brain and men tal illness occurs as a result. I agree that the role of science is to develop evidence in one or direction or another. However, psychiatric research doesn't seem to follow the scientific method. The idea that mental illness is a brain disorder is take n as a given and then they try to prove it by measuring differences in the sane vs. the insane and the treated vs. untreated. Evidence running against their theories is simply disregarded (e.g. Dr. Loren Mosher's fabulous work with schizophrenics at Sote ria House) because it runs counter to drug companies' interests and psychiatry's delusion that they can heal people of emotional illness. That's not science but it is big business. The forced treatment issue is a human rights one and really is quite sep arate from any of psychiatry's claims for efficacy. For the sake of an example, even if there were a cure for schizophrenia that was 100% successful and had absolutely zero side effects, it would still be unethical to tie people down and inject them with the cure. Psychiatry has had very, very limited success and has caused a lot of damage. SSRI antidepressants can barely beat a placebo and come with horrendous risks for suicide and psychosis. The "atypical" neuroleptics were heralded as the greatest new thing in schiophrenia treatment. This too turned out to be a failure. There's no indication that these neuroleptics are more efficacious than the old ones. They are, however, substantially more expensive. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

theories being pushed

Drug companies might like to push certain theories, but ultimately a theory will stand or fall on the merits of the evidence for and against it. Thus, a core part of your argument should be providing scientific evidence for no basis for each mental illness in the brain. For example, Dr Mosher's work suggests that medication may not be the best approach for some people. However, that is neutral with respect to wheth er the 'disorder' exists in the brain or not.

And yes, compulsory treatment is an ethical/human rights issue, not a scientific one.Limegreen 21:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily, as shown by psychiatry's insistence that all psychological problems can be cured by the right combination of pills. That theory should have already fallen, due to lack of evidence, but it has not and I'm not expecting it to any time soon. It's quite hard to prove a negative thus it would be tricky to "prove" that mental illness is not a brain disorder. It would probably be easier to prove that mental illness IS an emotional disorder. The work of Mosher, Karon and others already suggests this, however, but psychiatry just isn't interested. Most p eople do not see your point that forced psychiatric treatment is an ethical/human rights issue but I'm glad that you do. I'm also thankful for your wiki contributions. I'm trying to be more measured in my approach and that is in part from using you as a role model. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 00:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Taken from The APA's website, I don't see where they insist that all mental illness can be cured with pharmacotherapy only. In fact, t hey list Psychotherapy, Pharmacotherapy, and Electroconvulsive Therapy [2]. DocJohnny 04:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

None of the mental health practioners I know in this country beleiv e that pills are the only/best solution, so I believe there is cause for hope on this front. You are correct that it is hard to prove an absence of a cause, but providing evidence for other non-biological causes is a more workable route. I'm greatful that you've found some positive in my contribution, and I hope that in time that your passion works for constructive change. An analogy that I've just thought of which you might find useful is to consider a scientific theory as a glacier. Evidence is the snow falling at the top of the glacier, and as the evidence ceases to fall or falls less, the glacier will slowly shrink and may eventually disappear. Unfortunately, it takes many years and much snow for a glacier to form, and a similarly long time for one to disappear. The time to change can and will be frustrating, both for the scientists and for those at the business end.

You can also see psychiatry in a similar light. I would hope that recent graduates are better versed in current science and practice ba sed on this, but unfortunately people who trained 40 years ago will still be out there influenced by what they were taught. Psychology and Psychiatry have come a terrifically long way, both in terms of actual knowledge, and less brutal treatment in the la st 100 years, and let us hope that this change will continue without too much more injustice (I'd like to say no injustice, but I don't think that will happen).Limegreen 03:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

An attempt at clarity

I made some minor revisions in an attempt to clarify some points. As it stood the article seemed to be more of a rant against the pharmaceutical industry than an attempt to define the issue. This entire "theory" is mostly a "straw-man" argument used by opponents of psychiatry.

DocJohnny 20:45, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

As should have been clear from the discussion above, there is no specific "chemical imbalance theory." What the phrase refers to is psychiatry's insistence that schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder are brain disorders that require drugs for treatment. "Chemical imbalance" as a phrase was brought to the public by drug manufacturers. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

A search for "Chemical imbalance" leads primarily to sites critical of pharmacotherapy for mental illness[3]. While the p hrase "chemical imbalance" does sometimes appear in drug company websites [4], this is in language which agrees with m ajority scientific opinion [5]. As our primary goal should be a neutral point of view, we should attempt to make value neutral assertions and provide relevant information, including the fact that m edical professionals generally accept the biological basis of disease. I agreed with the causality statement, which is fairly neutral, so I have placed it back in the text with the word uncertain rather than unknown, which I feel better describes the stat e of research today. DocJohnny 05:03, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Scientology links

I feel that given the prominent role of Scientology in anti-psychiatry, it is responsible to mention it. My paragraph was neutral in tone and cited o ther wikipedia articles which expand on this fact. If you feel it could be more neutral please expand upon it rather than simply deleting it. In fact I am puzzled by the commentary, especially as it cited other Wiki articles. Also, a search on "Chemical i mbalance" will bring at least one scientology website on the first page, which demonstrates the relationship between the two subjects. There are at least 4 citations within the paragraph. I remain puzzled by how this could be viewed as either uncited or P OV "pure and simple"

Please revisit it. DocJohnny 13:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, mention it, by all means. But please don't do what the pro-psychiatry editors do which is attempt to paint all anti-psychiatrists as scientologist s. Scientologists are minor players in the fight to question biomedical (and often forced) psychiatry but they do get a lot of press because of Tom Cruise, etc. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:26, 22 Novembe r 2005 (UTC)

About Vast

Not all opinions have equal validity. The use of pharmaceuticals to treat mental illness is taught by every licensed medical school both allopathic and osteopathic. I think that qualifies as vast. Clinical guidelines for th e treatment of depression all mention psychopharmaceuticals. Even minority opinions within psychiatry talk only of reducing the use of pharmaceuticals, not eliminating them. The idea that drugs are not effective is a fringe opinion, not a minority one. This is what I was trying to accomplish with the word vast. If you see a better way to do that, please do so.

One problem that I have seen here is that often in the attempt to present all sides of an issue we don't give appropriate weight to the arguments involved. If we keep presenting fringe opinions as having the same validity as prevailing scientific thought, we are doing a disservice to the reader. DocJohnny 14:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Well-spoken, Doc. Jimbo has made very cle ar that WP:NPOV is not false balance. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, many psychiatrists promote drug-free therapy. Certainly, this point of view is in the minority (for obvious financial reasons) but that doesn't make it "fringe." Let's not forget that "prevailing scientific thought" once brought us leechings, beatings and near drownings, among other gruesome "treatments" and all of those treatments were peer-reviewed. Just because mainstream psychiatry promotes something, doesn't make it scientific nor ethical nor safe. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any "obvious financial reasons". I don't kn ow of any monetary incentives to use pharmaceuticals in any aspect of medical practice. I certainly get no checks from Pfizer :P. I agree that being mainstream does not necessarily mean anything, but the burden of proof lies with the minority opinion. A nd as for pharmaceutical treatment of mental illness, while there are lively discussions concerning their specific roles, the idea that none should be used at all is very much a fringe opinion. And keep in mind, being in the minority certainly does not gu arantee being right. A lot of people including physicians have reservations concerning current psychiatric practice, specifically legal aspects that infringe on civil liberties. But attention from these concerns is often diverted by fringe statements like "there is no biological basis for any mental illness" and "drugs do not work for any mental illness", both of which are demonstrably false. DocJohnny 08:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, DocJohnny. I'm not sure where you're from but in Canada psychiatrists do have a financial incentive. Doctors don't receive checks from Pfizer but they receive lots of other goodies. Other incentives are less direct but it's quite obvious that a large group of lifelong psychiatric consumers is in psych iatrists *and* drug companies' best interests. I don't know of anyone who thinks that psychiatric medication should never be used and I believe you're misrepresenting the anti-psychiatry position. What we do tend to believe is that psychiatric treatment should *never* be forced and that far, far too many people are hooked on psychotropic drugs. We also feel that psychiatry tends to pathologize all human emotions and often creates disorders (e.g. ADHD) where none exist. Psychiatry also masquerades as a branch of medicine when it clearly is not. Drugs often do help for acute distress in the short term and I don't think you'll find many people disputing that. However, a biological basis has never been proved for any mental illness and that's just a sc ientific fact, not a fringe statement. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, Ms. Allan. I am not all that familiar with the Canadian health system, so I cannot comment. I can ass ure you that the free pens do not influence my prescribing patterns.:) Actually I have read a lot of commentary from anti-psychiatry who think drugs should never be used. I agree that forced treatment is not a good thing and that there probably are too ma ny people on psychotropics. Certainly the pressure that lay educators have placed on the medical community to medicate children for ADHD is inappropriate. I think that psychiatry can pathologize *some* human emotion, I think saying all is inaccurate. An d I have found people who dispute the use of psychotropics in even acute situations. As for the biological basis of mental illness, the reason for what you cite is a change in definition. Every time a biological basis is found, the disorder is reclassifie d as a medical illness. Of course under such circumstances, the term "mental illness" will always be reserved for those that we know the least about. Keep in mind that hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, dementia of all types, autism, and many more were onc e classified in whole or in part as mental illness. Multiple sclerosis was once thought to be "Creeping paralysis" a mental illness. So I disagree. It is not a scientific fact. The biological basis of mental illness has been proven over and over. Those di sorders are just conveniently reclassified. Given that a biological basis for thought and emotion is not in dispute, how can you dispute a biological basis for disorders of thought and emotion? Now I will agree that the exact biological basis of most diso rders that we still call "mental illness" remains uncertain and more research needs to be done. DocJohnny 04:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, DocJohnny. Thanks for your response. You made me laugh with your reference to free pens but i n fact the problem is much more serious than that. Indeed some people think drugs are always bad but that is not reflective of the anti-psychiatry movement as a whole. I agree with you that diseases cease to be called mental illness when a biological basis is found but schizophrenia and mood disorders have been studied for hundreds of years now and they *still* haven't found a biological basis for them. The net is so wide that they likely never will. They are simply trying to classify and pathologize too many symptoms. When I say the biological basis of mental illness has never been proved, I am referring to what we currently refer to as mental illnesses, i.e. depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. If these were true brain diseases, then we would consult neurologists not psychiatrists. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi again, Ms. Allan. It is a pleasure to have reasonable discourse. And I do agree that these "disea ses" that we call schizophrenia and mood disorders are really syndromes and probably describe a variety of states that include both benign variations of normal function and actual pathology. It would not surprise me at all if we find that some var iations are biological and some are not. And I agree that psychotropics are probably overused. As a hospitalist, I am constantly pressured by family, social workers, and nursing to prescribe antidepressants for patients who are having a normal reaction to bad news. DocJohnny 17:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, DocJohnny. I too enjoy this dialogue. Too much of the psychiatry debate dissolves into mud slinging when really, at the heart of it, we have advocates AND professionals and both sides want to do what they believe (rightly or wrongly) is best for the mentally ill. To be honest with you, though, most doctors aren't as empathetic as you are. Psychiatrists tend to sneer at advocates, most of whom know firsthand what psychiatric tre atment entails, and many of them have an authoritarian, even abusive, manner with their patients. If, in the future, some of these conditions were found to be merely variations of normal function (as you suggest might happen), what might be the implications of that for biomedical psychiatry? Would it mean, for instance, that forced treatment could only happen to those whose conditions had been proved to have a biological basis? It's hard to imagine a category as broad as bipolar disorder, for instance, being split into two subcategories: biological and emotional (for lack of a better word). If at least some patients were proved to have no biological disease, I would think (hope) that would cast doubt over the entire category we call bipolar. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

What do we need to do to remove the NPOV?

eh? DocJohnny 21:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

recent deletion

I took out the follo wing:

"Critics have, by and large, offered only personal anecdotes, and have not offered empiric research to defend their views."

because it is untrue. There is substantial evidence against the biomedical psychiatric model and there are serious flaws a nd biases in Big Pharma's testing protocols. What the editor refers to as "only personal anecdotes" are very, very important and should not be disregarded. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:18, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Ditto this statement:

"Research has suggested, however, that this approach often does identify individuals who, statistically, are likely to report subjective benefit and reduced suffering as a result of medication therapy."

If you want it inclu ded, please cite this research and define how you are using the words "statistically" and "likely" here. Subjective benefit is also reported after placebo. This proves nothing about chemical imbalances. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

And the following is coming out:

"The author of the study, psychiatrist Mark Gold, remains a strong advocate that addiction and psychiatric disorders are rooted in complex chemical imbalances and e ffective treatment is available from various drug treatments, an opinion that he shares with the majority of the medical community."

because it is irrelevant to the issue being discussed, which is that many psychiatric patients are misdiagnosed due to un derlying physical illnesses. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Guess what? It is all relevant and it is all going back in. A representative from mindfreedom.org has a POV that wo uld prevent neutral editing on this article.--24.55.228.56 15:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

No, actually it's not at all relevant, just another stab at the Anti-psychiatry movement. It's coming out and if you put it back in, I'll brin g in a moderator to freeze the page. If anti-psychiatrists aren't neutral enough to edit then pro-psychiatrists aren't either. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

we don't have moder ator's. I'm pretty certian on this point. If you mean admins then I susspect they would take the view that at the present time page protection isn't needed. An article RFC might be of use though.Geni 15:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I did mean an admin. However, I've changed the wording and hope we can come to common ground on the issue. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The Study as it were

Despite the study, the author, psychiatrist Mark Gold, like most of the medical community, retains his belief that most psychiatric disorders are rooted in complex chemical imbalances which require drug treatment, sometimes involuntarily.

vs.

The author of the study, psychiatrist Mark Gold, remains a strong advocate that addiction and psychiatric disorders are rooted in complex chemical imbalances and effective treatment is available from various drug treatments, an opinion that he shares with the majority of the medical community.

The latter edit is my work originally. My reason for making the edit was due to my feeling that the original sentence's use of the word despite was based on several suppositions not supported by the text. For despite to be accurate, you have to assume the study contained some reason for him to abandon belief that psychiatric disorders are "rooted in complex chemical imbalances". As the actual study is never referenced in the text, the specifics are uncertain, but the te xt itself

For example, in a Florida psychiatric hospital study from the 1980s, one hundred patients diagnosed with a mental illness were subsequently given a complete medical exam, after which it was discovered nearly half of the patients’ psychiatric problems were secondary manifestations of an undiagnosed medical problem

states that nearly half the patients had psychiatric problems based on physical problems, which would hardly lead a reasonable person to abandon the idea that a biological basis exists for psychiatric disorders. This study on its face is an indictment of sloppy psychiatric practice but also very supportive of biological psychiatry, after all over half of these patients had a biological basis for psychiatric symptoms.

This is the reason I feel the use of the word despite is unwarranted. I see no reason based on the presentation of the facts in that section that the author should change his view. And use of the word despite implies that he should have. My change was an attempt to remove that bit of POV and to address a bit of the false balance.DocJohnny 22:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

DocJohnny, although I certainly appreciate your explanation (and agree with you that "despite" is a POV word), the fact is that about 1/2 of these people were misdiagnosed and thus incorrectly treated. That is truly shocking and it's also shocking that a researcher would make this acknowledgment and then go on blindly pushing the theory that allowed that to happen. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Ms. Allan, I applaud your fair mindedness in not making blanket reversions. But, I disagree that the theory is what allowed it to happen. I think sloppy ps ychiatric practice allowed it to happen. The take home message for that study is that more thorough evaluation for psychiatric patients is needed, which has been addressed by medical practices that make the physical assessment of psychiatric patients comp ulsory. The reality of the situation is that those people who were misdiagnosed did have "chemical imbalances" in their brain caused by the medical illnesses which then caused their psychiatric symptoms. Now, if you take issue with the sometimes haphazar d way in which inpatient mental health can occur, I can agree with that. I agree that the misdiagnosis of such a large portion of patients is shocking and must be addressed, but I really cannot agree that there is no basis for a biological basis for menta l illness. Considering that the scientific view of the mind is biological, how can you possibly expect a scientific view of of mental disorders to be otherwise? That is one big problem that I have with some of the anti-psychiatry movement. I agree that the exact biological basis of depression, schizophrenia et al. is not well understood, but to blithely state they are not and cannot be biological in basis is irresponsible and antithetical to logic. If the mind is not biological, what is it? spiritual? Do you see how your movement loses those of us who agree that psychiatry should be more evidence based?DocJohnny 03:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I just ordered Gold's book where he explains the hospital study he did 20 years ago. Although I think the study is too dated to be used as an authority on chemical imbalance, I still think its findings are being mistated here. I know Gold, like virtually every psychiatrist on the planet, believes clinical depression is a neurobiol ogical brain disorder. If half of his subjects did not have a major mental illness, I am sure he would say the ones that did have a chemical imbalance. I will edit that section as necessary as soon as I consult the original source.-- 24.55.228.56 15:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The prevailing view of mental illness simply isn't supported by the science and that's why we question it. The "mind" doesn't exist so it's folly to speak of "mental" illnesses. If these conditions are brain diseases (such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's), then they should be treated by neurologists. There is simply no evidence that depression is a neurobiological disorder and there's lot of evidence against the theory, e.g. the amazing success of placebo treatment. In antidepressant studies, the placebo successes are often taken out of the study. That's fraudulent medicine and the FDA condones that. Gold's study isn't terribly surprising -- mental patients routinely have their physical condition ignored. Gold's study suggests that people are being wrongfully diagnosed and treated. As a medical professional, that should concern you. As a mental patient, that terrifies me. Psychiatrists keep insisting that this is all a matter of brain chemicals but th e fact is they don't have a clue *which* brain chemicals nor can they establish what levels of various chemicals are present in a "healthy" brain. Try this analogy: you're out in the woods and you're confronted by a bear. Is the bear causing you fear w hich causes your adrenaline level to rise? Or would you say that adrenaline is causing your fear? The latter scenario is the equivalent of what psychiatrists do: they ignore causation. Now, if they want to be honest and describe the true risks and ben efits of psychiatric treatment and people decide to try it, then that's fine, that's great, that's wonderful. But psychiatry doesn't believe in informed consent. Mental patients are deemed incompetent often solely on the basis of refusing treatment. In fact, that's considered a psychiatric disorder of its own. Involuntary psychiatry treatment is a severe human rights violation. And all of it is based on a biochemical theory that has yet to be proved. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 16:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Ms. Allan, I am a bit confused as to the overall position of your movement on mental illness. There are people who are significantly impaired and unable to function due to altered mood(what we call depression), or hallucinations both visual and auditory(what we call schizophrenia). If known medical illnesses are ruled out, what do they have? You state that it is not biological, but you also don't believe in the mind, so I am at a loss. If their pro blems are not psychological or biological, what are they? In essence I am asking if depression is not neurobiological, what is it? DocJohnny 16:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, DocJohnny. Anti-psychiatry includes a lot of positions. Some people don't believe there are mental disorders, that is, they are artificial social constructs. Some people (like myself) believe there is such a thing as mental illness but that it is not a true disease, in the sense of having a biological basis. Others believe that it does have a biological basis but that psychiatry treats people very poorly. Those are just three broad categories among many others. The mind doesn't exist independently of the brain. If you believe otherwise, can you ans wer where the mind resides? What we term "mind" are our moods, emotions, thoughts, inclinations, instincts, etc. All of these phenomena are reflected in our brain chemicals, no question about that, but that's not to say that these phenomena originate t here. Clinical depression is merely a reaction to a person's situation, often a logical and realistic one. It takes counselling, not chemicals, to figure out what makes a person depressed. More importantly, counselling and self-awareness give a patient the skills to avoid depression in the future. Drugs, on the other hand, only promote lifelong dependency with no insight into the cause of the disorder in the first place. Schizophrenia can also be thought of as a reaction rather than a disease. I'm s ure you know that a large percentage of people labelled schizophrenic are actually abuse (sexual or otherwise) survivors. Schizophrenia can be an alternate reality for these people when their actual reality (confronting memories) is too painful to contem plate. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 18:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. The word mind is just a convenient label for for the software that runs on the hardware that is our brain. I agree that often depression is a response to external stressors. But everyone's response is different. And a lot of us in the medical profession feel that antidepressants are erroneously prescribed in situations in which depression is natural and perfectly justifiable such as grieving after the loss of a loved one. However, I don't think we can say with any assurance all depression is of external origin. In fact, the long term efficacy of counseling is less well known than that of pharmaceuticals.DocJohnny 21:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, according to the researchers at the University of British Columbia, the long-term outcome of counselling is far superior to drug treatment when it comes to treating depression. Antidepressant s tend to have a positive impact in the short-term but it's not sustainable. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Prozac poop out" in that regard. Also, as you know, withdrawal from SSRIs is very difficult. I'm pleased that many of you see antidepressants as being overprescribed, especially in situations were depression is quite natural. Most psychiatrists don't have that POV, however, and whip out their prescription pads without even a cursory investigation of possible external causes for the depression. This is certainly true of people with pre-existing psychiatric labels. In fact, I know several patients who have had legitimate (and sometimes dangerous) physical complaints, but they were just deemed delusional and prescribed more psych drugs. Of co urse we can't say absolutely that all depression is of external origin but we can say absolutely that we have yet to find any internal cause of depression. You seem to be agreeing that the mind is part of the brain, i.e. not a separate entity. If that's the case, would you agree that "mental illness" is a misnomer? Why a separate category for mental disorders? These disorders are either diseases or they're not. If psychiatry wants to contend that they're diseases, then let's see the research and the objective diagnostics on that. Until then, we have a bunch of unproven theories which is fine but it's not enough to force treat people based on a bunch of theories. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 23:45, 26 No vember 2005 (UTC)

This is a slightly related point, but how much overprescription is being done by psychiatrists? As far as I'm aware, most SSRIs are prescribed by people other than psychiatrists, and as a sort of notable example, I'm aware of an overp rescriber of methyphenidate who was an obstetrician (Methylphenidate was restricted to being prescribed only by a specialist, *any* specialist). Having said, that, I presume that your ultimate concern relates to the forced-use/over-presription of anti-psy chotics?

Another related point is that for the most part, psychiatrists don't do research, and what research they do do, tends to be directly related to treatment. Coming up with biological theories of mental illness is the purview of neurologists and n euroscientists. This is in the same was as a normal doctor doesn't usually do their own research, but rather is taught current best practice based on research.

My final random point for this afternoon is to point out that belief in some sort of biologic al basis and belief in forced treatment are completely independent. As such, I think it's useful to try to keep the arguments for each separate. You might perceive that psychiatrists' belief in forced treatment is based on a biological belief, but ultimat ely, involuntary treatment comes from a political/parliamentary authority, and I suspect those who draft those laws have relatively little interest in whether or not there are biological causes.Limegreen 01:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

H i, Limegreen. No long time no hear. You make an excellent point. I believe most SSRI prescriptions are actually from family doctors, not psychiatrists. Our concerns in order of importance are:

(1) forced drugging (e.g. throwing hospitalized people do wn and injecting them); (2) coerced drugging (e.g. take this drug or we'll have to commit you); (3) lack of *informed* consent for voluntary patients (e.g. take this harmless SSRI).

Of all the psychotropic drugs, so-called antipsychotics are certainly th e nastiest and most dangerous. I happen to agree with you that the forced treatment issue and the biological theory issue are separate. However, many people go along with the forced treatment issue solely because they're fooled into thinking these are b iological illnesses. Thus the issues remain intertwined, rightly or wrongly. Just for the record, I'd like to make it clear that even if it were 100% proven that for example schizophrenia was a biological disease and even if drug treatment were 100% eff ective with absolutely zero side effects, then I *still* would believe that forced psychiatric drugging is wrong legally, morally and ethically. It's a legal/philosophical issue, not a medical one. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Ms. Allan, If that is your belief, then your dispute is really with the legal system rather than with psychiatry. The idea of competence is a legal one, not a medical or psychiatric one. What is your stan ce on forced treatment of any kind? Are suicidal patients to be allowed to kill themselves? What about children? Forced treatment occurs in other areas as well. Children are routinely "forced" to accede to treatments for medical illnesses because their gu ardians agreed. The elderly who have severe dementia are often "forced" to accept lifesaving treatment at the behest of their relatives. When relatives or other guardians are not available, the state steps in and "forces" treatment. The idea of competence is well established outside of the domain of mental illness. The antipsychiatry movement really should consider the effects of their proposed reforms. Keep in mind that records of mental illness (schizophrenia et al) has predated psychotropic medication by hundreds of years, so these illnessess are not caused by these drugs as some in the anti-psychiatry movement claim. And the treatment of the mentally ill was much much worse before the advent of these drugs. And I cannot agree that there is no evidence. The preponderance of the evidence is that these illnesses are biological in nature. It is only the specifics that elude us for now. And if they were caused by external factors, why is it that the proposed mechanisms aren't readily reproducible, and why don't the effects fade once the stressor is removed? And even these distinctions are illusory. Whether your cancer was caused by genetic inheritance and or by external factors such as radiation exposure, it does not change your need for surgery and chemot herapy. It seems you believe there is some massive conspiracy between doctors and drug companies to use unnecessary treatment. DocJohnny 05:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my dispute cannot be contained to the legal system be cause the legal system defers to psychiatrists on the issue of mental illness. I am 100% against forced drugging and electroshock. I would support hospitalization in rare circumstances, such as a suicidal patient, but that's quite a different issue from forced drugging and electroshock. We certainly do consider the effect of anti-psychiatry proposed reforms. The drugs aren't the only cause of mental illness (and I don't know anybody who believes otherwise) but they certainly prolong it as evidenced by the World Health Organization studies. As for the alleged neurobiological mechanisms, the specifics have been eluding psychiatry since the branch of medicine was born. In answer to your query, if an external factor is causing an illness it would be hi ghly unethical to reproduce that (although I note with disgust that E. Fuller Torrey has been involved with research where psychotic episodes are actively encouraged). And, in many cases, the effects do in fact fade once the stressor is removed. Your ca ncer example is quite different from any mental illness because it's not clear at all that treatment improves the outcome for psychiatric patients. And it *does* matter what caused the disorder. If somebody's struggling with memories of sexual abuse, is it effective or humane to drug those memories away? Psychiatry only treats symptoms and that's its main failing. And, seriously, I don't believe in conspiracy theory. I think psychiatrists for the most part actually think they're doing some good but t he research they rely on is extremely tainted. NAMI is basically a front for the pharmaceutical industry. Now the drug companies, however, are a different story. It's quite clear where their interests lie. Are you aware of Traci Johnson's suicide during an antidepressant trial? GlaxoSmithKline tried to suppress her death until they were forced to disclose it. Traci Johnson had no prior history of depression. Even leaving the issue of forced psychiatry aside, we still have some trouble. Typically, when a patient is newly diagnosed, she is taught that she has an incurable biological disorder for which she will need lifelong treatment. These statements are both invalid. Sadly, many patients believe their psychiatrists and they're set up for a lifet ime of disability. I really disagree with your statement that the evidence shows there is a neurobiological basis. How do you explain the dismal drug outcome rate? How do you explain people like myself who turn their backs on psychiatry and do just fin e unmedicated? How do you explain spontaneous remission? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 05:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think those factors that you mention are due to the lack of precision in psychiatry. I be lieve there are factors that need to be addressed since psychiatry compared to medicine is in its infancy. I just don't think we can generalize from these factors to the conclusions you have reached. While there are people who have done well such as yourself, there is ample evidence that there are others who do very poorly without medication. But I suspect that we will not come to a consensus. This discussion remains informative, and I invite you to message me with literature supportive of your position.DocJohnny 17:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

But doesn't it concern you that I was locked up and force drugged and electroshocked, all on the basis of cutting edge psychiatric theories? That I was later coerced into taking four or five psyc hotropic medications? That I was told I had an incurable brain disorder and when I questioned this declaration I was accused of "lack of insight" and made an involuntary patient? I am not alone. There are thousands of us who have been terribly harmed b y this euphemistically described "lack of precision." Some have been killed by psychiatry. The fact is that psychiatry is pseudo-medicine, more comparable to a religion than a science. Certainly some people do better on their medication and I can't ima gine any reasonable person would argue otherwise but that proves nothing about the origin of their disorders. And even though some people are helped, how do you get from there to being so confident in psychiatry that you're willing to participate in a br anch of medicine that inflicts human rights violations on its patients? I disagree that we cannot reach a consensus. We could certainly come to an agreement on what informed consent means. I believe we could even agree on the involuntary treatment issu e. We could agree on the status of current neurobiological research although probably not on the implications of that research. Did you see on my talk page where I listed some resources in answer to your question there? I'd like to add Dr. Grace Jackso n, the author of "Rethinking Pyschiatric Drugs" to that list. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 18:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Those things do concern me. As I have stated before, I am concerned over the civil li berties implications of mental hygiene laws. But I am also concerned over throwing the baby out with the bathwater. DocJohnny 18:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

But in this instance it's the insistence that psychiatry is a legitimate branch of medicine and that all mental illness can be boiled down to brain chemicals gone awry that allows us to even *have* mental hygiene laws. You know what I wish psychiatrists would work on? Practical short-term solutions to alleviate suffering. I wish psychiatrists could make people comfortable when they're in an emotional crisis and need to figure out what's going wrong in their lives. There's certainly a need for that kind of assistance. But lying to patients, coercing them, forcing them, incarcerating them and setting them up for a lifetime of disability is definitely not the right way to go. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 19:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Mental hygiene laws date back to 1339[6], possibly much earlier, which long predates the idea of brain chemicals. In fact, back then a lot of people thought the brain was a heat dissipating organ.DocJohnny 23:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Su re, you're right on that. But right from the beginning, psychiatry dealt with mental illness as if it were a disease even back when they were talking about the four humours, right? The idea was always that the lunatics were evil and sick and had to be t reated. The language has changed, the science has sharpened, but basically society still views the mentally ill in the same light. It is only people's fear of madness (fear which is promoted and magnified by "doctors" such as E. Fuller Torrey and outfit s such as the Treatment Advocacy Center) that allows an entire subgroup of our population to suffer ongoing human rights violations. With the possible exception of a positive HIV status, I can't think of any more profound label that could be saddled on a person. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The remark that "there is simply no evidence that depression is a neurobiological disorder" is an example of either stupidity, dishon esty, or denial. See a list of studies here that prove that depression (and other serious mental illnesses) are neurobiological in nature: [7].--24.55.228.56 03:00, 27 Nov ember 2005 (UTC)

Is this tone really necessary?DocJohnny 05:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Please try to remain civil when you debate issues. I am neither stupid, nor dishonest nor in denial so I suggest you retract your above remark. The Stanley Research Institute is not a credible source of research for the same reason that the Treatment Advocacy Center isn't. Stanley bankrolls E. Fuller Torrey's fraudulent work. Depression has not been proven to be a neurobiological disorder. The alleged link between serotonin and depression has now been all but disproved. Likewise, where structural abnormalities have been shown, causation has never been proved, i.e. it's not clear whether the disorder causes the changes or if it's the other way around. And, in all cases, irregularities do not apply to all sufferers which casts further doubt on the neurobiological theory. If you believe that any mental illness is a neurobiological disorder, please answer why there is no objective test for same. Your ignorance is forgivable; your rudeness is not. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

24.55.228.56, you've been reported. Francesca All an of MindFreedomBC 04:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

If I have offended you, I apologize. It is frustrating for me to deal with an editor who admits to being a member of an organization that has extreme POV on psychiatry issues, but edits those article s nonetheless. The sources I listed are scientific journals. list of publications The Stanley foundation lists them on their website but they do not publish those peer reviewed journals. You ca n also go directly to their websites if you choose. Biological Psychiatry is found here: Biological Psychiatry journal. Here is a search of depression related articles in Neuropsychopharmacolog y journal:epression&image.x=8&image.y=4 Neuropsychopharmacology search. Articles on the neurobiological basis of mental illness can also be found at Biological Psychiatry journal and rg/cgi/search?pubdate_year=&volume=&firstpage=&author1=&author2=&title=depression&andorexacttitle=and&titleabstract=&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=&andorexactfulltext=and&fmonth=Jan&fyear=1981&tmonth=Nov&tyear=2005&fdatedef=1+January+1981&tdatedef=23+No vember+2005&flag=&RESULTFORMAT=1&hits=10&hitsbrief=25&sortspec=relevance&sortspecbrief=relevance&sendit=Search Journal of Neuroscience. THere are many more publications that specialize in publishing scientific papers on the biological basis of mental illness. As you can see, there are literally hundreds of papers documenting the connection. Again, I apologize. Please also remember that while civility is very important, NPOV is the top priority in wikipedia.--24.55.228.56 10:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I am not "ignorant."--24.55.228.56 10:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Just because I question psychiatry, doesn't mean I can't contribute well to an article. If you look at some other editors' comme nts, I think you'll find I'm welcome here. Yes, I'm quite aware of the prevailing view that mental illness is biological. But the connection has never been proved. People diagnosed with mental illness can't be distinguished from anybody else based on o bjective tests. There is no study in the world that says otherwise and it is my belief that there never will be. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, there are al so no laboratory tests that can identify people with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia,or autism. Or for that matter, essential hypertension.DocJohnny 17:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The problem with autism is that it's a catch-al l name for a number of different genotypes and phenotypes, but certain tests are plausible, just not done. Still, there's no proof autism (or ADHD for that matter) are pathological in nature in a majority of cases, except for for atypical behavior being considered pathological in a subjective way. Neurodivergent 16:36, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

True enough but the difference is that nobody is subjected to forced drugging for any of those conditions. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 17:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV rules

It's unclear to me why the NPOV tag is there. Here's how this should work. If someone believes there's something NPOV, they should state that specifically in the talk page (or better yet, just fix it). If someone adds an NPOV tag with no explanation, the tag should be removed. I'll remove it for now for a clean start. Neurodivergent 15:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The NPOV tag was here because this article has been used mainly to attack mainstream psychiatry and the pharmaceutical companies (See also biological psychiatry). I will try to keep an eye on it so it doesn't get too out of hand. --65.87.105.2 00:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Where do your POV interests lie? Are you in the pharmaceutical industry, or psychiatry? It sounds like you support the pill-pusher industry to some degree. Is this why you are so adamantly opposed to seeing your precious "medications" side by side with "street drugs"? Drugs are drugs, patented or unpatentable. Without the original substances which have been blacklisted as "street drugs" by the pharmaceutical industry, there would be no pharmaceutical industry. Get over it, and get off your high horse of deception. --Thoric 00:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Funny to see a POV discussion with such POV language. Please promise now to never seek out us "pill pushers" for help. And promise to never take any of ou r precious "medications", not antibiotics, not blood pressure medication, nothing. What irks me is that someday, all of you conspiracy theorists will come crawling into our ER's and the only thing that will save you from death is our "high horse of decept ion". --DocJohnny 04:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

DocJohnny, you have my word. I will never seek out medical help again as long as I live. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

You're assuming that the "conspiracy theorists" (that's funny) are against all medicines. While in general I'd be cautious about popping pills as a first course of action for any little thing that comes up, I'll definitely take them if they are required to stop pain or prevent death. Neurodivergent 17:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but NPOV disputes should be more specific than saying "hey, some guys are posting things I don't agree with." Point out the specifi c statements that are in dispute, note that they are not notable/citable, or add your own POV is so needed. Neurodivergent 00:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

This guy 65.87.105.2 (talk · contribs) has taken it upon himself to vandalize all articles with which he disagrees. --Thoric 00:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Removing a statement of the evidence to replace it with a description of a different standard

The edits today by 172.135.213.125 (talk · contribs) changed the following:

Changes in levels of neurotransmitter metabolites are detectable in urine and cerebrospinal fluid and have been associated with certain mental illnesses, but are not sufficiently predictive for successful diagnosis.

to:

Cha nges in levels of neurotransmitter metabolites are detectable in urine and cerebrospinal fluid and have been claimed to represent certain mental illnesses, but have not been scientifically proven and confirmed to be objective di agnoses of any abnormality representing any mental illness listed in the (DSM-IV).

I have reverted this change, because a true fact which explains why many rational people would find the role of chemical imbalances in mental illness plausible, namely the fact that these quantifiable changes in neurotransmitter levels have been associated with mental illnesses, has been removed and replaced with the fact that these indicators have not been "scientifically proven and confirmed to be objective diagnoses," e tc. This is not an NPOV change; you cannot remove evidence which you do not personally find convincing merely by removing it entirely and replacing it with the nearest-most stringent standard which the evidence doesn't meet. Please keep in mind what Jimbo Wales says at WP:NPOV about the mere accumulation of facts not equalling NPOV.

Also, 213.125, please keep in mind that we have no way of knowing whether you are, as you say you are, "an expert in Neurology". We must base our conclusions on whether your edits are NPOV and, as you claim, "based purely on scientific fact and not personal POV", except based on the merits of the edits themselves, particularly what citation and reference you can give us to check your edits. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

argumentum ad verecundiam

This is an encyclopedia on the internet where anonymous editors whose credentials cannot be verified collaborate. The only way this can succeed is if the statements have independent verification. Your credentials must be proven by good consistent editing not just by merely asserting your expertise. Frankly merely asserting being "an expert in Neurology" is suspect. What exactly are you? neurologist? neurosurgeon? ne uroanatomist? neurophysiologist? --DocJohnny 08:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm guessing you're referring to 213.125... Which are the statements in dispute? The way Wikipedia works, as I see it, is that its statements should be citable and relevant to the article in question, and written in a way where they are clearly true, e.g. So and so claims such and such. It doesn't really matter if the statements are mainstream or non-mainstream, although generally articles will present more of the mainstream view. In this particular case, if statements are not citable (e.g. they are 'original research' by 213.125) then you do have an argument for exclusion of those statements, regardless of the validity of the statements. Neurodivergent 17:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

In other words, Wikipedia disputes should be resolved on the merits of the content, not on the perceived intentions or credentials of the editors. Neurodivergent 18:04, 29 Decemb er 2005 (UTC)

The particular editor in question made some changes which were very hard to identify since his edit also inserted spaces randomly in words throughout the article. I was not responding specifically to any particular portion of his edit but rather to his edit summary.

172.135.213.125 (As an expert in Neurology I have added statements based purely on scientific fact and not personal POV. If you revise or delete please explain the scientific basis for the change. Thank you.)

I feel this type of appeal to authority is pointless and immediately suspect. --DocJohnny 18:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

And I agree completely with Neurodivergent which is why I wrote "The only way this can succeed is if the statements have independent verification." i.e. cite sources. --DocJohnny 18:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I see it's the new content in the intro. I'm guessing User:172.135.213.125 is new to Wikipedia. I would not delete the contributions (which sound like they could be right) before failing to find a citation. Neurodivergent 18:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I Agree Let's Have Citations Please

Yes, I am new to Wiki. I tha nk -- Antaeus Feldspar for the changes made and instruction. If stating I am an expert in Neurology has upset and/or threatened anyone here I apologize. That was not my intent. I can no more prove I am an expert in Neurology than DocJohnny can prove he/she is a Psychiatrist that actually works in an emergency room practicing genuine medicine on patients.

However I do agree that making medical scientific factual statements shoul d be supported by citations. Tha t's why I only changed statements that did not provide citations and meet the burden of proof as is the standard in medical science. In medicine, in particularly when claiming the existence of a disease/abnormality the burden of proof is always on those m aking the claim, and not on those being asked to believe that the claim of the disease/abnormality is real.

For our purposes there was no citation in the article that proved PET scans detected a biological abnormality in the brain, such as a chemical imbalance, that represents any mental illness listed in the (DSM-IV).

There were also no citations to support the implied assumption that mental illnesses listed in the DSM-IV, which includes chemical imbalances, are object ively confirmed abnormalities in the brain. So I made the appropriate changes to let the reader know in a clear, concrete, and concise fashion. Until such citations can be made statements that imply or assume otherwise should not be included in an encyclopedia based on fact and verifiabl e sources and especially in an article dealing with a topic on medical science.

Therefore I again ask that those who which to revise my statements please honor the request to provide scientific citations that prove your changes, are based purely on scien tific fact and not personal POV. If there is anything else I can address regarding my edits please let me know.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.18.245 (talk • contribs)

It would be difficult for me to prove that I am "a Psychiatrist that actually works in an emergency room practicing genuine medicine on patients" since I am not a psychiatrist, do not work in an emergency room, and have never made claim to either. You miss the point, sir/madam. No one is "upset and/or threatened" by your assertion of expertise in Neurology. We merely wish to point out that such assertions carry no weight and in fact make your edits more suspect. Good informative edits carry citations, not assertions to personal expertise. Pleaser refer to Wikipedia:Citing sources for more info rmation. There is a reason you will not find any claims on my part to authority based on my profession. No one cares. My edits will either stand or fall on their own merit, not based on a vague unsupported declaration of expertise. Also, please be careful when you are editing, it seems your browser likes to add random spaces to the entire page. --DocJohnny 23:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh but you do care DocJohnny or you would not keep harping on the subject nor w ould you have asked so many questions about my profession. Personally I do not care whether you can prove, or not prove your claims about your profession. Nor have I asked anyone to accept any statement I made based on my own expertise. I only stated what that expertise was. I do not regret stating it, I only regret that it upset you so much that you have repeatedly focused on this one little comment instead of the more relevant fact that I made an improvement to the article by removing scientific claims that have no citations. Which is ironically what you continue criticizing me for not understanding needs to be done. Now if you wish to add a scientific fact to this article then please do so and cite the proof as I have requested. Otherwise, thank you fo r your attention and good day.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.132.40.7 (talk • contribs)

Please take the time to read Wikipedia:Citing sources. You have yet to cite a single source for your edit. It is your responsibility to cite sources to support your own edit. And please fix you r browser, since it tears up the formatting with your edits. Neither argumentum ad verecundiam nor argumentum ad hominem are substitutes for citations. Take a page from your own book and cite the proof as I have requested. --DocJohnny 05:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Please Be Specific!

DocJohnny there is much written in the entire article that has no proof or citations. But I have let them go unchallenged for now. So what is it EXACTLY that you require proof of? And please be specific. Remember I can't help you if you dont actually read the article or if you do not know how to articulate what you want. And please do not suggest I read the Wikipedia:Citing sources page again. I already have read it thank you very much. Now go od day to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.153.222.207 (talk • contribs)

Mr./Ms. Anon, it is not the other editors' responsibility to identify your edits. If you cannot recall your own contributions, I suggest perusing the history. Select a change that you have made and click (las t). Your changes will be highlighted in red. Please go back to Wikipedia:Citing sources until comprehension occurs. Let me provide you with some assistance. If you add any information to an article, particularly if it's contentious or likely to be c hallenged, you should supply a source. If you don't know how to format the citation, others will fix it for you. Simply provide any information you can on the source. If you prove incapable of locating your own contributions, please let us know, I am sure someone will be able to help. --DocJohnny 09:21, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

DocJohnny I have not added any information that is contentious, is being challenged, or is likely to be challenged. So no action on my part is required at this time. Thank you once again for your contribution..— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.19.97 (talk • contribs)

Please read Wikipedia:Citing sources again. Your above comment indicates you still lack comprehension. Perhaps you are confusing the word particularly with the word only? --DocJohnny 21:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Arbitrary Deletions With No Explanations

I reverted the deletion by user DocJohnny because there was no explanation or specific challenge or contention to the previous statement s deleted. I — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.146.139.174 (talk • contribs)

Mr./Ms. Anon, please just take the time to add sources to your edits. Stop this endless series of justifications for your lack of sources. Stop the appeals to authority. Stop the ad hominems. Stop trying to make this personal. And most of all, stop tearing up the articles with random spaces. And please take the time to read Wikipedia:Citing sources. --DocJohnny 21:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Mr./Ms. Anon, please just take the time to add sources to your edits. Stop this endless series of justifications for your lack of sources.

DocJohnny|DocJohnny I have currently made no new additions to this article, nor have I attempted to revise those that were deleted by yourself. I did make deletions and there is an online space on this website for justifying deletions. I used this space appropriately.

                    Stop the appeals to authority. 

I made no initial appeal to authority. Although you continue to appeal to the authority of Wikipedia:Citing sources for your justification in deleting statements. So I too have made deletions based on the authority of Wikipedia:Citing and thank you for referring me to it.

                   Stop the ad hominems. 

I have made no ad hominems. The very fact that you continue to accuse me is a personal attack which I believe is an ad hominem itself. And if I may point out the fact, it is you DocJohnny, that has the dubious record of being the only editor on this talk page reported for viciously, verbally, attacking other editors for having different points of view. Do I need to cut and paste your attacks on the Mind Freedom Editor? I believe you called her stupid or was it some other nasty word? Or would you like me to cut and paste the crude and mean statements you made to anyone daring to challenge your views. I paraphrase but I believe you called them "Conspiracy Theorist" and implied that if they visited your emergency room they would not get medication. Isn't this true DocJohnny?

               Stop trying to make this personal. 

Oh the contrary I have only sought to make scientific contributions and avoid the further debasing of this article with personal points of view and contest of ego mania. Again I do believe you are the only editor on this page that boasted of being a " Hospitalist" and having a job of prescribing anti depressants as part of the rational for your edits. Again if necessary I can cut and paste your exact words to prove I am not personally attacking you but merely reporting facts. (By the way, prescribing antidepressants would make you a medical doctor in the USA since only MDs can write prescription drugs.) Yet you insist on claiming I am the one appealing to authority and that I am trying to make my contributions something personal.

       And most of all, stop tearing up the articles with random spaces.

I have a browsers problem which I plan to correct. To imply I am willfully defacing the article is again an example of your ego involvement and desire to make this some type of personal contest. Other editors have been insightful enough to realize this is a technical problem and in the spirit of being neutral editors have corrected these changes without deleting my contributions. The page was entirely formatted properly before you arbitrarily deleted my contributions, presumably for not having citations, and then added statements without citations that met your approval. By the way DocJohnny, what gives you the right to add statements without citations while admonishing others for doing the same thing?

      And please take the time to read Wikipedia:Citing sources. --DocJohnny 21:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC) 

Thank you. I did read them and have deleted all contributions without citations. Now we truly have a NPOV article. And any further contributions can be based on scientific fact, and if necessary a consensus arrived through scientific discussion, and debate as opposed to personal ideology and dogma. Which I may add has no place in a medical science related article. I do hope this have been helpful. Good day to you.

Explanation For Deletions.

I removed all scientific statements without cited sources according to the Wikipedia:Citing sources guidelines. While there are no doubt editors with strong personal points of view regarding Chemical Imbalances, the article needs to be based on pure science and not bi ased personal philosophy. Therefore let's all agree that any contributions to this article, especially those declaring medical scientific facts, be referenced with verifiable, objective, scientific sources. And if the science of any contribution is in dis pute let's discuss it here on the talk page and debate it based purely on the merits of science. Can we all agree to this?

Explanation of Deletions

Removed because there is no citation to prove this statement. A search on google does not show a majorit y of the mentioning of this term as being contributed to groups critical of psychiatry but shows its use in a wide variety of groups pro and con regarding psychiatry.

--This term is most often used by groups critical of the pharmaceutical treatment of me ntal illness theory.

Removed the following statement because no citation to objective scientific research that proves it is factual.--Current r esearch in neuroscience does indicate roles for changes in the operation of neurotransmitters in the brain, and changes in neurons and neural structure in the pathophysiology of mental illness, but current models are more complex than simp le chemical balances/imbalances.

This tag sentence is a POV and not from the objective scientific research cited so it was removed. --Such findings implicate more complex mechanisms, such as changes in neurotransmitter production, transmission, re-uptake, and neural sensitivity.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves this statement is true so it was removed.--In addition to depression, changes in levels of neurotransmitters have also been implicates in anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder (manic depressive disorder), schizophrenia, and Parkinson's disease. As well as changes in serotonin and nore pinephrine, dopamine systems have also been considered.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves this statement is true so it was removed.--So, while all biology is essentially chemical in nature, rather than being caused by simple chemical imbalances, mental illness is now widely recognized to be caused by complex and, in many cases, as-yet unknown factors.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves this statement is true so it was removed.--The 'chemical imbalance' hypothesis is not wrong. It's just not entirely correct."

No citation to objective scientific research t hat proves this statement is true so it was removed.--Because neural mechanisms imply a physiological difference underlying mental illnesses, they appear to justify the use of medication in treatment.

No citation to an objective source that proves this statement is true so it was removed.-- an opinion that he shares with the majority of the medical community.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves Borderline Personality Disorder or autism is a mental illness, as opposed to Neurological diseases/disorders so it was removed. ---Some mental illness, such as some patients with 'pure' Borderline Personality Disorder, may not have a significant biochemical basis underlying it; these patients will typically not find that their symptoms are usefully treated with drugs. Similarly, when significant neuroanatomical differences are involved, the effectiveness of drugs is limited. For example, autism researchers have found differences in gray and white matter volumes, neuron size, brain mass, and locus of brain function; differences which may be accounted by unknown factors, perhaps involving the interaction of 15 to 100 different genes.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves this statement is true so it was removed.--There are advanced imaging techniques such as Positron Emission Tomography (PET Scans) that can test for chemical imbalances.

No citation to objective scientific research that proves this statement is true so it was removed.--An important consideration with regard to chemical intervention is the potential for relapsing into depression or other psychiatric conditions when medication is discontinued abruptly or without medical supervision.