Talk:Marienlyst Castle

Castle or Palace?

I moved this back to "Marienlyst Castle" based on the note below, copied from my talk page. In Germany many "palaces" are called "castles" in English, so it seems OK to me. I am npt an expert and do not speak Danish. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I've been working on an article Marienlyst Castle. It was recently changed to Marienlyst Palace but a palace is a property of the sovereign only and since Marienlyst is not owned by the Queen or the State it can not be called a palace. Could you please change it back to Marienlyst Castle. Sincerily (Ice Explorer (talk) 20:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

Moved from Ramblersen's talk page: Moved from Ramblersen's talk page: I had a very clear conversation with you about Marienlyst Castle. A palace is a property of the sovereign only and since Marienlyst is not owned by the Queen or the State it can not be called a palace. Why you would go behind my back on this when you clearly know I've been working on this article is very disappointing. (Ice Explorer (talk) 20:11, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

I have by no means "gone behind your back" &ndash: and you would really do yourself a favour if you stopped seeing everything as some kind of conspiracy against you. I actually refrained from correcting this obvious error (as I have refrained from commenting on several other issues regarding your wikipedia activities) since I did not want to make an issue out of it prior to your self-proclaimed departure. Nor did I want to offend you, eventhough you seem to think otherwise, and Marienlyst Palace was obviously "your" project. However, you rather dramatically proclaimed that you would no longer write here (because of a conflict with someone else) and you have to realize that wikipedia is by nature a collective work and not personal property. If you had not proclaimed that you had left here I would not just have moved it though but either taken the discussion (again) or let it go (and I had gone for the latter).

Now as for what to call Marienlyst: I have two driteria which I find relevant, though I have not checked what Wikipedia says on the matter: !)What is the name officially used by the place itself? 2) What is correct? The first one is easy ndash: the Marienlyst is called Marienlyst Palace in official pamflets and on websides. Now what is correct? A "castle" is a defensice structure and since this building obviously isn't it is not a castle. As for your definition of "palace" I think it is too restractive (though I may of course be wrong). I think the word can correctly be used to refer to any major building originating as a residence of a sovereigh – which this does. Furthermore "palace" seems frequently to be used for "larger mansion". But this is an interesting question since I often think it is unclear how to translate generic term's like this since the words often cover different things in different languages. Since this building came into existance due to the garde, maybe "Pavilion" would be the most correct translation? Still I think it has a lot to say whata place (or anything else) is officially called in English and that is in this case Marienlyst Palace. Still that is just my opinion and I suggest you ask someone else to get a third opinion on this matter instead of taking everything as a personal insult. Now I will move this to Marienlyst's talk page where I think the discussion belongs and I suggest the discussion continues there.Ramblersen (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Well I see you have already taken action so no I guess the third opinion doesn't matter - thouigh that doesn't make it any more correct.:-) Happy trails.Ramblersen (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I made the move as requested - I did not see any discussion on the talk page and did not realize it was this disputed. I did a quick search on the web and found that the Green Michelin Guide in English calls it Marienlyst Castle. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, sorry about all this. I had put a lot of research into it, but sadly anyone can just change it without regard at all. I have moved the article from my Sandbox. It's not complete but I would appreciate it greatly if you could give it a quality scale rating. Sincerily, (Ice Explorer (talk) 05:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC))

I did a quick Google search on "Marienlyst Castle", which got 6,540 hits, and "Marienlyst Palace", which got 3,250 hits. I would make note of the Palace name in the lead per WP:LEAD - I assume that there are reliable sources to use to back up the incorrect name claim, and so I would add mention of that too (very brief in the lead, could be more detail in the body). I really don't rate articles, sorry Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 15:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The origin of the problem is the Danish word Slot which has no reliable English equivalent. Wikipedia (together with many other English-language sites) has tried to select either Castle or Palace as a translation but in fact, Slot can often mean a country house, a mansion, a stately home or even an estate. Although I know that Ice Explorer does not like to refer to Danish buildings by their generic name alone, a simple way out of this rather academic dispute might well be to call the article something like Marienlyst (residence) and describe it in the lead as:

Marienlyst (Danish Marienlyst Slot) is a large residence located in Helsingør, Denmark. It was named after King Frederik V of Denmark's second wife, Juliana Maria, the Queen consort of Denmark and Norway.

If the building had been in England, it would no doubt have been called something like Marienlyst House - but I'm certainly not suggesting this as a title for the English Wikipedia article.

I would also suggest that there should be a disambiguation page to avoid confusion with Marienlyst in Norway and with the Hotel Marienlyst, an aristocratic bathing residence also in Helsingør.

And BTW, for the Google fans who have compared the hits on Marienlyst Castle (only 6,500) with those on Marienlyst Palace (only 3,200), I would point out that for Marienlyst Slot - the building's real name - there are 113,000! So a redirect from Marienlyst Slot would seem to be in order too - and it now exists. Ipigott (talk) 17:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I was going by WP:NAME. Since this is the English Wikipedia, the most common name in English should be the title of the article. It also discusses using Google hits as a rough measure of use for a given name (and I reran them excluding Wikipedia and got the same basic result). As I have said before, I think that the lead should give the Danish name and the palace name. There could be a brief discussion in the body of the article about the uncertainty in translating Slot (which seems to me to be close to the German word Schloss, which can also be translated as both castle and palace in English). I think it would also be fine to have a brief discussion that in Denmark a palace has to belong to the sovereign (as has been mentioned above). Both of these would need to be sourced. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to sound too pedantic about this but as you are German and, quite correctly, cite Schoss in German as having similar problems to Slot in Danish, perhaps you would like to take a look at the titles of a few German articles with Schloss. Of particular interest in this context are Schloss Burg , Schloss Esterházy, Schloss Eichtersheim and Schloss Benrath. As you can see, the English-language articles about the German Schlösse use Schloss rather than Castle, Palace, Manor or whatever. You can find references to Esterhazy Palace in Eisenstadt on Google English (some 60,000) but German Schoss Esterhazy (Google hits of 435,000) has nevertheless been chosen for EN Wikipedia. The same argument could (and in my opinion should) be used for Marienlyst Slot. No one in Denmark would know what you were talking about if you said Marienlyst Castle. It simply is not a castle! The castle there is Kronborg (and note the article is indeed called Kronborg and not Kronborg Castle) - obwohl es Schloss Kronborg auf Deutsch heisst! Ipigott (talk) 18:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

1.) Why do people want to call it a palace when it's clearly not. It wasn't even called a palace when it was owned by the royal family. So why would we want to change it now ? 2.) This is the English Wikipedia and not the Danish Wikipedia. What matters is how English speaking people would view it. This is why there is a Danish Wikipedia. 3.) Why have we once again allowed Ramblersen to mud sling and create controversy. It's not a palace and we shouldn't have to call it a palace just because one person wants it. Not to mention the fact that it's the opinion of someone who's first language is Danish and not English. I don't go around the Danish Wikipedia and tell them how to spell or title things in Danish. 4.) We should also look at the quality of work (example:Glorup Manor) when deciding on how much credence should be given to their opinion. 5.) If I went to England and bought a castle, then renamed it a palace, I would be laughed at endlessly and the land registry would tell me what I've told you. A palace belongs to the sovereign or the state and since you're neither, please call it something else.(Ice Explorer (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC))