Talk:Indoor rower

more history needed

As an encyclopedic article, the history section is extremely weak. The rowing machine was first patented in 1867, yet we don't get much of any discussion about its development until the past 30 years. I will add the patent information with primary source citations, if there is no objection. That will at least provide a start toward more historical content. Declair (talk) 17:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

question

hi all, a question i have asked myself, having picked up rowing recently. in track, the most coveted distance is 100m. it s a quick run, exciting, entirely explosive and anaerobic. it can easily be argued that in erging, the 2k is the biggest focus, the first time people compare, etc. why? it s much much longer than 100m, there is some pacing to do, you can t row that distance that many places. any idea why?

This is page to discussion the article not the general topic, but in brief 2k is more like 400m, a sprint but a long one it's considers a good test of fitness. Also there are plenty of rivers where you race over longer distances (see the rowing article) --Nate1481 15:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)not

The question was meant so that this information could be added to the article.

Now that's a bit of a value judgement... the 100m track event is the most spectator friendly and exciting, not necessarily the most prestigious (one could easily argue that honour should go to the Marathon). In rowing, the standard distance has always been either 3 miles (for races modeled on The Boat Race), or 2000m (for races modelled on the Henley Royal Regatta - nowadays much more common). These distances are essentially arbitrary, but the reasons for the distances being so much longer are mainly due to rowing being a much more technical sport than sprinting. It is a test of skill and endurance as well as raw power. But to answer your question in a more definite way, 2k is the most commonly compared distance because that is the distance most international competitions are held over. Simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeti Hunter (talk • contribs) 07:46, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Concept 2

This article appears to be an adverts for Concept2!

Not only that, it doesn't include entire classes of rowing machines (hydraulic, for example)

I don't read it that way.

This article looks pretty good. Concept2 while probably the largest manufacturer of indoor rowers is the only one I have ever seen marketed as an ergometer.

You've probably not looked a lot. Check out Fluid Rower and Water Rower —Preceding unsigned comment added by The 1f coach (talk • contribs) 02:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting

I agree, the entry is certainly overly-commerical. I've been rewriting the the indoor rower entry, and so far have decommericalized the Competitions, Exercise, and External Links sections, giving them both academic legitimacy, and removing the commerical, as well as badly written, content. (James Igoe, 2006-09-24)

Rewriting II

Removed overly-specific referecnes to the Concept II rower. I believe this entry is now non-commerical, and should be reconsidered (James Igoe, 2006-09-24).

reads like an ad for concept2

Too much Concept2 in the text, two Concept2 links in the External links section, and the photo is a Concept2 pic. Highfructosecornsyrup 22:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Concept2 are the most widely used ergs so will be a significant part, the other types are listed in the top paragraph, external links to rowperfect and water rower would be good additions though. A paragraph on comparing the types would also be good, will see if i can find the links. --Nate1481 00:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Links added for balance and moved competition section to bottom better? --Nate1481 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

History of the ergo

Does anyone know the history of how indoor rowers gradually entered the rowing scene? They had "rowing machines" on the titanic, but you don't hear of them being used for training until about 1965. Repco introduced one of the first things we would recognaise as an erg in about 1970, and then the concept 2 came in 1981 (I believe). I could write a passable history section but I'm not sure where to go to cite any of it (except the repco bit - i've got a good source for that). Any help?--ABVS 12:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no info about Repco's early ergometer in the Repco article. Can anyone provide more info about the first air-resistance ergometer? -- LightSpeed (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a reputable source that Repco had the first early air resistance ergos: http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=44. I thought they came out a little earlier than the 80s though. Oh well.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Indoor rower and Rowing exercise

An indoor rower is used to simulate the activity of watercraft rowing. Rowing exercise refers to the seated row exercise in weights training. These are two very different workouts that use completely different apparatus.--Yeti Hunter 07:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Upon more detailed reading, the Rowing exercise page does indeed have a lot of duplicated information about indoor rowers. I'd propose that the information from that page relating to ergos be moved to Indoor rower (eg, the world records), and the information about seated row retained on that page, but made less ambiguous. This could be done by renaming the page "Seated row".--Yeti Hunter 07:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

To avoid future confusion I've moved Rowing exercise to Row (weight-lifting) (and added Seated row and Standing row as redirects to there). Ewlyahoocom 20:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I just re-redirected Standing row to Upright row. Ewlyahoocom 03:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Commercialisation.

There have been many claims of this article reading like an advert, first for Template:Concept, then for Template:RowPerfect and links to other commercial websites. Typically, the article is cleaned up, then slowly returns to it's former, advert ridden self, before it is cleaned up again.

In the interests of preventing this, and promoting a good quality encyclopedic article, I propose a complete ban on the mention of any specific products, or companies, or commercial entities in this article. This will keep the focus on facts, people and times, and hopefully help us keep an NPOV. Stestagg (talk) 23:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. While blatant advertising should be avoided, you simply cannot have an article about indoor rowing without mentioning Concept 2. They were the first "Indoor rower" as we know them, and they are still the best and most widely used. They are the world standard. I also support mentioning Waterower and Rowperfect as examples of different products, and Repco as the innovators of the first air-resistance ergometers, but probably no other brands (since no other brands have anywhere near the market penetration, nor sufficient difference). So keep the adverts out, but you must mention the prominent brands. Yeti Hunter (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that blatant advertising is to be avoided, however, citing C2 in the competition section is not blatant advertising. It is encyclopedic to credit C2 with developing erg racing into a sport in its own right, and to my knowledge the only erg competitions that are being done are still on C2 machines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.209.22 (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think 81.159.209.22 hits it on the head. Morcheeba (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Exercise

This sounds like idle speculation: "rowing's most common injury site is likely the lower back" I suggest that either remove the word "likely" and provide a citation, or remove the passage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.110.171 (talk) 20:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Blatant weasel wording. Rowing should not cause any injury, properly done. Yeti Hunter (talk) 03:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Without fail, there are practitioners of any sport say the following "_______is one of the most challenging forms of exercise". Erging, like any sport, is as hard as you train. Not encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.110.171 (talk) 12:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

However it is still likely that a reliable source can be found for this claim. It is regularly claimed that some sports stand above others in the effort needed to excel, eg distance running, swimming, cycling, and rowing. I recall an article in my local newspaper that claimed exactly that about rowing just recently (it was about how, if he were a footballer, James Tomkins should be a multimillionaire). Still, as it stands, it does appear unencyclopaedic ("My sport is harder than your sport")Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Erg Test

I have removed the 500m from the list of common erg tests. While it is common for rowers to do 500m tests "for fun" or done in series as part of interval training, they are not a good indicator of aerobic performance because they are too short and I am not aware of coaches taking them seriously. The 2k test on the other hand is the standard competition distance, and the 5k and 6k are reflective of "the boat race".

I think something needs to be said about use of step-testing on the erg to determine anaerobic threshold and max heart rate, but I do not have time to write it (at least not today). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.209.22 (talk) 05:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Manufacturers / Brands

I have added a section on ergometer manufacturers. I avoided listing makers of gimmicky water sloshers, and companies who have merely taken an ill informed, single stab at producing an erg. Concept 2 is listed, but not emphasized. Thoughts? 128.211.221.51 (talk) 16:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Purdue Student 09/08/2008

Given this article's history regarding excessive commercialization, I'm with Nate1481 on this. The list is basically advertising, a simple internet search will provide a list of the current rowers out there. Furthermore, any form of subjective pruning of the list of manufacturers will never work on here. I'm sure it is obvious that "gimmicky water sloshers[sic.]" indicates a certain subjectivity and NPOV here, and I would be interested in how you would objectively define "ill informed, single stab" when assessing companies for inclusion in the list. --Stestagg (talk) 08:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

To do list for GA

Given this article's importance to rowing, it'd be nice to get it up to GA standard. The existing information is good, but the article is still a bit of a shambles. IMO, the following needs to be done:

• Rewrite lead per WP:LEAD
• Consolidate existing information into logical subheadings
• Ensure compliance with WP:MOS
• Inline citations
  • Ensure no original research
• More pictures (suggestions?)
  • Main picture of a single C2 ergo
  • Historical picture (Repco ergo or Titanic photo)

No Titanic photos please...lets keep it serious. --Badocter

Was thinking of this photo http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_gymnasium.shtml (2nd photo down). It's quite well known and a very early example of a rowing machine. I can also get a photo of one of the original Repcos, which were the first air-resistance ergos.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I get it now --Badocter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.24.214 (talk) 18:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

• • C2 monitor

Why specifically the C2 monitor? Not notable IMHO.--Badocter

Since C2 are the competition and training standard world-wide, I think they warrant inclusion - simply to illustrate the most common type of data readout. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• • Indoor rowing competition

How about embedding the youtube of Pinsent vs Cracknell for the race section http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbuESIPFfz4 . A great racing video and notable because both were olympic gold medalists and the race was the closest finish ever of a major event final (only 0.1 seconds apart).--Badocter

Sounds good, but how does that work with copyright?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

A screenshot from an online rowpro session might also be good for the online racing. I can get one if needed --Badocter

• • Animation of rowing action would be excellent if anyone is handy with stuff like that

--Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Do mention Concept 2

I noticed that there are no mentions whatsoever of the Concept 2 rowers. I realise previous versions of the article may have seemed overly commercialised, but I think it is also important to make clear that Concept 2 is the de-facto standard of indoor rowers, at least in Europe where I live. For many Concept 2 is synonymous with indoor rowing, and that should be made clear. (One sentence would be enough to do this, and I doubt that would make the article the way it once was.) This seems to have been suggested before, but no real discussion has ensued / nothing else has happened. Qualalol (talk) 10:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)