User talk:RomanyChaj

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Welcome/Mishto Avilyan

Hello, RomanyChaj, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Vi, kana janes e amari chib, dashti te aves te keres buti vi kay Romani Vikipidiya. Again, welcome! Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure

Sure! Also your overall knowledge about the East Slavic area would make a breakthrough, because otherwise this info is not very accesible. Now there are just few articles at Category:Russian Romani people, but obviously there is potentiality for more, also for categories about Ukrainian, Belarussian, even Kazakhstan Romani people (if there are personalities among the Sinte and other Romani people deported there). Sastipen tuke thay tire familiyake! Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 21:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes I publish articles about faous Roma and other Gypsies in http://blogs.tol.org/roma/ as Khamoro_chaj.. Shunesa, how could I write my nick with such Indian letters?.. RomanyChaj

For RomanyChaj is रोमानीछाय and for Khamoro_chaj is खामोरो_छाय. You may go to Preferences and there to put the signature you want. There are on-line pages that convert automatically into Devnagari, like [1], just there is necessary some knowldge about the rules of correspondences between Latin and Devnagari scripts (see rmy:Devnagrī, Devnagari). Also you may add at the end of your message only four ~~~~ and the username and the date will appear automatically.

About the ethnic name, I saw you use Gypsy for covering all the groups. Now worldwide it is preffered to be used the adjective Romani, because it is used as such by all the Romani groups be they named as a noun Kale, Sinti, Manush, Roma or Romnichal, it is what all these groups have in common. For example, the Sinti have this name as a noun, but for the language they speak they use the adjective Romani or the adverb Romanes. Also in Spain where live the Kale/Gitanos, they employ Romani (for example Union Romani the most important organization from there). The same in UK for the Romnichal. Further Prof. Ian Hancock promotes the use of the adjective Romani as a noun (with the plural Romanies). This variant is used also in Spanish as romaní-romaníes. I know that in this manner remain out other Desi people from the old Diaspora like the Bosha, the Dom or the Lyuli. Now it depends on which direction will take the political construction of the modern identities: more ethnic groups, Romani, Bosha (Lom), Dom, Lyuli or one including all. As you wrote in your article about the comparation with the Slavic people, there may be considered as correct an identity on more levels. The first level, the ethnic one is that of the ethnic groups, i.e. Romani, Bosha (Lom), Dom, Lyuli, but also Punjabi, Marathi, Tamil etc., then the upper one would be that including all the Desi populations. Now the question is if it is necessary an intermediary level as are the Slavic, the Germanic, the Italic among the Europeans to include all the groups from the old Desi Diaspora, the so-called Gypsies. The historical researches show that they are not directly related, they left the Indian Subcontinent at different times. The common things would be the treatment received from the local population. Otherwise, the purity rules, the marriages only inside the caste, the respect for the elders, these are features common to all Desis. I don't know how is the situation in Russia, but in Romania, where I live, really there is a problem with the word Gypsy, for five centuries, the correspondent in Romanian, ţigan was synonimous to slave. The words Romani and Gypsy express two really different worldviews. Sorry if I got into too much explanations, and I already apologize if there might appear any misunderstandings, most probably they were not intended. My intent is to debate for the best option, not to stick with an idea, since it is necessary an international harmonization. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Russia, Gypsy (tsigan) is a very romantic world :) And English terms like Gypsy Glamour are not bad. And Jem Mace and Rodney Smith both had nicknames "Gipsy" and were not shy of it. Gypsy is a bad word for those, who don't like us... I like us :) RomanyChaj

Mishto Aviljan

...thaj te aves baxtali! It's really nice to have another Romani contribute! I'd love to help translate the Russian articles you've written into English. But maybe you might consider making a link from your user page to your Russian Wikipedia page? --Kuaichik 22:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sure :) http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:RomanyChaj&oldid=4575625 RomanyChaj

Would you like to join the Romani people Wikiproject? --Kuaichik 00:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Me kamava, ne syr?! RomanyChaj

I've added my name, was that right? RomanyChaj

Yes. As you can see now, the project is just at its start, its structure is not yet fully developed. Let's hope it will become fully fledged in time. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 20:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, could I ask you to help me with this?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novoselsky_Valery I don't want that to be deleted RomanyChaj

Of course, I reorganized and wikified the article. I had this in mind just I was busy with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Margita Bangová. Btw, could you take a look there also? This is an unjustified article about a common beggar, which I understand only as active anti-Romani propaganda, by the usual way of picking some non-representative Romani persons, and presenting them as true Gypsies, while really representative people are shunned. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question: is it OK the adding of Jewish background? This is what I saw at [2]. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? We are not nazis, we are not shy that somebody of us has gadhikano rat. That happens, that's life! If the man has a Romano heart, he is Rom. I think so. RomanyChaj

Aww, what a nice thing to say! So does this make me Romani, too? :) --Kuaichik 05:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A 'honourable Rom' as Goran Bregovich - why not? ;) RomanyChaj

What an honor! :-D Спасибо бољшое thaj najis tuke but! --Kuaichik 23:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, what does ne syr mean? (When I asked whether you wanted to join the Romani Wikiproject, you said: Me kamava, ne syr?) :) --Kuaichik 04:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'but how' RomanyChaj 21:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, akana sa xatjarav; that makes sense now. Numa sar in Vlax (Romanian) Romani. --Kuaichik 04:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, welcome back! :) --Kuaichik 04:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I didn't leave you, I'm just ill, that's why sometimes I disappear RomanyChaj 17:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And indeed I'm vlax, I just speak Russian Gypsy language RomanyChaj

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Novoselsky Valery

Referring to other editors as nazis and facists is a personal attack. Please assume good faith and be civil in your interactions with other users. If you have any questions, you may contact me on my talk page. I have removed the comments from the deletion discussion, since they have no effect on the outcome. -- Merope 17:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC) Ok RomanyChaj[reply]

Reposting deleted content

A tag has been placed on Valery Novoselsky, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Valery Novoselsky is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:Valery Novoselsky saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. If you believe the original discussion was unjustified, please feel free to use deletion review, but do not continue to repost the article if it is deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. —Psychonaut 14:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Valery Novoselsky

If you wish to have Valery Novoselsky restored, please follow the steps to list a new deletion review. Thanks. -- Jreferee t/c 15:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only information I could find on Valery Novoselsky does not appear enough material from which to develop an article:

Keinon, Herb; Gilbert, Nina; Krieger, Hilary Leila. (September 6, 2004) The Jerusalem Post Israel offers counterterror aid to Russia. Section: News; Page 1 (writing, "The Israeli NGO Russian Center of Information and Culture in the State of Israel is seeking donations for the children wounded in the school siege. The money will be used for medicine, clothing, and other needs faced by the victims. "We Russians who live in Israel also participate in this chain of relief support," said Valery Novoselsky, from the organization's public relations department. The center works to help Russian non-Jews integrate into Israeli society and aims to strengthen ties between the Russian Federation and the State of Israel.")
Krieger, Hilary Leila. (April 28, 2005) The Jerusalem Post Prisoners of Zion protest visit. Section: News; Page 3 (writing, "By coming to Israel, "Russia lets others in the Middle East know that Russia doesn't want the destruction of Israel," said Valery Novoselsky, who works for the Russian Center for Information and Culture in the State of Israel but said he wasn't speaking for the organization. "It's a very good step that Putin comes from Russia to Israel on the official level and shows that visions of destroying Israel are a pure fantasy." He added that the trip also signifies "the complete end of the era of official anti-Semitism" by the Russian authorities, despite the persistence of such sentiment in the minds of some of the Russian people.")

-- Jreferee t/c 15:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, gadji mass-media is not interested to talk to Gipsies but I can give you links to Russian-speaking newspapers and magazines which you can read with the aid of Google. Is that suitable? And he really does much for filling the informational gap in gipsy community though none of Gadji is interested in that, he works very much. Roma Virtual Network doesn't consist of only Roma Daily News, there are many other branches, and he moderates them all. RomanyChaj

Personal attacks/language

Please do not attack other editors or use abusive or inflammatory language, which you recently did twice at Talk:List of Romani people. [3][4] If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. —Psychonaut 21:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Romani names of the Holocaust

Hi, sorry for the delay, I still keep being busy. I just read your article and I agree with your comments about the disputed capacity of the words created until now to express the Romani experience during the 2nd World War. In this sense, the focus of Kali Trash/काली त्राश looks more appropriate. However, a problem I'd like to discuss, is that the use of the color black may step on a positive cultural meaning, cultural value. Just to remember Kali Sara, worshiped in Western Europe (recently she was painted also in Romania) or a Romani saying, May kali e mura, may gugli e laki zumi (Blacker the blackberry, sweeter its juice). In this sense, it comes to my mind an alternative expression, Bari Trash, to be considered and debated in the discussion you started in this article. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And also Roma call themselves sometimes Kale. That's why Kali Tras means not only Black Horror, but also Horror for Roma (for Black), can you see? We thought about Bari Tras, but it doesn't seem expressive enough... रोमानीछाय

OK, I see your point. I added also info about Mateo Maximoff at the Romani wiki. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you :) RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) 16:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Romanipe(n)

Hi! I saw you started this article and I think it's great. However, the form Romanipen is better known, more academical, as n is used at the oblique case, the Google hits for this form are more than those for Romanipe. There are already articles with this entry in Romani and Polish Wikipedias. I think we should have the title Romanipen. What do you think of this beginning of article:

Romanipen (short, Romanipe) or Romaniya, depending on the Romani dialect, written also Rromanipen (short, Rromanipe) or Rromaniya

Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 21:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok. What the hell is with Romani people page? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 10:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicity

Sorry, I can't seem to get used to terms like 'race' or 'ethnic' group. That does not mean you may not revert my edit :) --Anne97432 (talk) 11:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 22:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proofreading

Hello ! I've been reading the article you mentionned. I am not sure I improved it but I did my best :) --Anne97432 (talk) 16:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Darren M Jackson

please can you help its been put up for deletion, I have proved with doubt that this guy is a notable and a gypsy bare knuckle fighter, I believe as it is links to the Romany project that is why it is being put up for deletion. Can you help ? please reply Diamonddannyboy (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for translation

Dear RomanyChaj: I was wondering if you wouldn't mind doing a rough translation of ru:Московский музыкально-драматический цыганский театр «Ромэн» for English Wikipedia? This topic is notable, as, to my knowledge, it is one of the only long-standing, permanent, professional Roma theatre companies in existence. Thanks! —Zalktis (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Porikarav! —Zalktis (talk) 09:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Romen Theatre and Editing Tags

In the future, please do not submit articles with no content and only an {{editing}} tag. This is a major pain for new page patrollers such as myself.

For example, I wasn't sure if you intended Roman Theatre.

The article meets inclusion guidelines; just please keep the above in mind. Thanks! —Latischolar^talk_{contributions} 22:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 13:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note

I posted a question on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Romani people#Help needed. Please have a look. Thank you. Sebastian scha. (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Romani terminology

Hello! I want to talk to you about the terminology you use. You use "ethnic groups" and "nations" to designate the various Romani groups. Are you sure that this terms are use right? You say that there are no Romani castes, but I can show you people (including Romanis) that will contradict you. Kenshin (talk) 12:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm sure Roma have no castes. Though some of them repeat afer journalists. Because Roma often trust mass-media. Ethnic group is an ethnic group, it has its own history, dialect, customs. Romani society is democratic, not of castes. All ethnographists I know (and I know many of them because many of them know me, because I'm quite a well-known Romani journalist who writes and studies about Roma's culture and history, not only of my own Romani tribe but Roma in whole) say that Romani ethnic groups are not the same as castes. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Caste might not be the perfect term, but is definitely much better than nation. Now I see that you use tribe. What exactly do you mean by tribe?

And the Roms that I saw using caste are educated and know closely the Romani society, they don't just repeat after journalists. The ethnographers that you've talked to probably had an European cultural background, but I'm not sure if the European cultural/ethnical concepts are the best to describe the Romani society. The relation between the various Romani groups resembles a lot to that of the Indian Jatis. Kenshin (talk) 08:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1) There are no words like castes in Romani, but ethnic groups (what I have called tribes this time) are called natsia. How would you translate this word? 2) Dr Janardhan Pathania, for example, is an Indian. I mean an Indian from India, you know. 3) Please, explain, why do you think that relations between Romani groups resemble castes? Could you also cite a romanologist that have the same opinion, please? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) 12:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "linguistic" argument is very week. If there are no words like castes in Romani, doesn't mean that a caste-like reality doesn't exist. I know that some Romani groups use the word natsia, but that doesn't mean that it translates as nation! As you probably know the Roms borrow words from neighboring languages, but not always with the same exact meaning. In fact that is a general case. Even in modern European languages (from which the Romani word was borrowed) the term doesn't have exactly the same meaning as it originally had in Latin.

You know, I know and understand Romani language and its nuances better than you, and I know we use word natsia meaning ethnic aspect, not social (yes, it's not a synonymus of nation but of ethnicity). And I'm OK in both Russian (it's my second native language) and English so I can see what translation is quite exact. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Castes are divisions (many times based on occupation) among people with the same cultural/ethnical background, that have particular customs and endogamy rules, even though they feel they belong to the same society/culture with the other castes. Also, certain hierarchies exist among castes. Particularly, the Kalderash are among the "high" Romani castes, at least in Romania. From this point of view, the Romani groups are very similar with the Indian Jatis. Nations are something else.

Many different Romani groups have or had the same occupation - but by your classification, they are different castes. About hierarchy of cates, I think, you tell about respect. Kalderari are high respected by Romanian Roma, but not very much by Ruska Roma in Russia, and Ruska Roma are not respected by Kalderari. Different Roma of Russia respect Ruska Roma more then Kalderari, and Roma of Spain would respect more Kalderari than Ruska Roma. So, we can see, that there is not an exact hierarchy, only very private relationship. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

What exactly do you mean by romanologist? I know peoples that have studied the Roms (even Roms themselves) that use the word caste. Do you know some romanologist that said that there are Romani nations? Kenshin (talk) 07:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I mean ethnographists who studies Roma. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk

And I know many Roma who studies Roma but think they are from Egypt or Israel, really. By the way, do you know, how castes form? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

I saw that you asked me if I was a Rom, but you deleted the question. I'm not a Rom, but I get this question frequently lately:) I guess there aren't many gadjos that interested in the Roms. Kenshin (talk) 07:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Russia, there are many Gadzhe who is interested in Roma. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

we use word natsia meaning ethnic aspect, not social (yes, it's not a synonymus of nation but of ethnicity) - Castes are not just social constructs, they imply some degree of cultural and linguistic differences, so they touch upon ethnicity and, yes, ethnicity (and not nation) is closer to what I think it best describes the Romani situation.
Many different Romani groups have or had the same occupation... - The fact that different Romani groups have the same (or similar) occupations and the complexity of the relationships between them (that can change through time) actually also shows similarities with the Indian Jatis.

You're just really inloved into Indian hirarchy :) RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Not really. I'm not an expert nor in the Indian society, nor in the Romani one, but some similarities are too obvious. Kenshin (talk) 09:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And I know many Roma who studies Roma but think they are from Egypt or Israel, really - No, I mean serious people:)

So do I! The Romani historian, Valdemar Kalinin, who is a specialist by Romani history in XX century, is sure that Roma are not of Indian origin. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

In Russia, there are many Gadzhe who is interested in Roma - Then they should consider contributing to Wikipedia, too.

They do. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Are they here? Who? Kenshin (talk) 09:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They are in Russian Wiki. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

BTW, if Russian is your second native language, what is the first?

My another native language is Romani. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

That is strange because you have gradually upgraded the Romani language tag in your profile from basic to native. Kenshin (talk) 09:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have just learnt how to do it. I'm not really good in Wiki templates :) RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Why don't we use "Romani groups" them? Group is a neutral word and we avoid any implications. Kenshin (talk) 07:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, let us use this term. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Then, so be it! Kenshin (talk) 09:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Valdemar Kalinin theory

You said that Valdemar Kalinin, a Romani historian, doesn't believes that the Romanis came from India. If you have the time, I am interested to know what is his theory and his arguments. Thanks! Kenshin (talk) 09:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He has not exact theories or arguments. He just doesn't belive, that's all. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Kotlyary and Kelderary

You have added that the Kalderash from Russia and Ukraine use Kotlyary and Kelderary in Russian and Ukrainian. Are both words used in both languages or one in Russian and one in Ukrainian? Kenshin (talk) 11:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both words are used, though Kotlyary more often. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)

Luli

As you mentioned (on the Romani talk page) these groups would be called 'Gypsy' but are they related to the Romani or just have a similar way of living?Domsta333 (talk) 12:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]