Talk:Ethics (Spinoza book)

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The Title

The article at present claims that the book's title is Ethics because the author wanted to show how "...the ethical and content life can be attained by the life of reason and thought." This is puzzling because a life that is ethical does not have to be filled with contentment, and a life of contentment may not be ethical. Ethics are related to right and wrong. Contentment is related to happiness and sorrow. Also, Spinoza clearly asserted that there are really no ethics at all. Spinoza wrote that right and wrong are merely conventions that have been adopted by society in general. In reality, there is no right or wrong, and therefore there are no ethics. He said:

...in the state of nature everyone thinks solely of his own advantage, and according to his disposition, with reference only to his individual advantage, decides what is good or bad, being bound by no law to anyone besides himself.
— Ethics, Part IV, Prop. 37, Schol. 2

Also,

...by sovereign natural right every man judges what is good and what is bad....
— Ibid.

If everyone lived according to reason, people would not hurt each other. However, because people are guided by their emotions, instead of their reason, there is no harmony among people. But, as far as ethics are concerned, good and evil, as well as right and wrong, are mere conventions that have been agreed upon by society and their governments. Therefore, Spinoza's book entitled Ethics shows that there really are no ethics, in absolute contrast to what is claimed in this Wikipedia article.Lestrade 01:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Lestrade [reply]

All pantheism must ultimately be shipwrecked on the inescapable demands of ethics, and then on the evil and suffering of the world. If the world is a theophany, then everything done by man, and even by the animal, is equally divine and excellent; nothing can be more censurable and nothing more praiseworthy than anything else; hence there is no ethics.
— Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation, Vol. II, Ch. XLVII

The Ethics vs "ethics" To help answer your question let me point out that Spinoza's "Ethics" is not the same as a generic philosophy of "ethics." What Spinoza proposes in his book of "Ethics" is a specific system for judgement. It is a robust system, somewhat mechanical even, that is based on both reason & dogma and it is the foundation of many other "ethical systems" of later philosophers such as Locke, Nietzsche, and Deleuze (etc.). As a system it as axiomatic principles which have universal application throughout the system. indeed, these principles may not be "ethiical" in a general philosophical sense, even though they constitute the rules of Spinoza's "Ethics." Dr.Crawboney 11:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)Dr.Crawboney[reply]

According to red-linked User: Dr.Crawboney, Spinoza's book is a system of judgment. The title word is not to be taken in the "general philosophical sense." But, why use the word ethics, which already has a definite meaning? The word ethics denotes the study of what is good and what is right. Why give a word a meaning that has no relation to its accepted meaning? Are we to believe that ethics doesn't always mean ethics, but, rather, something else which we can choose arbitrarily? Spinoza's book, according to User:Dr.Crawboney's judgment, would have been better titled Judgment or A System of Judgment. Maybe it should have been called Reason. Also, on what dogma was Spinoza's system based?Lestrade 17:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

For people who are interested in learning ways to win an argument, it may be worthwhile to note the clever device used by User:Dr.Crawboney. After it was shown that there are no ethics in Spinoza's book Ethics, User:Dr.Crawboney responded by simply saying that the word Ethics in the title doesn't really mean ethics. Ethics means something else, which is not actually specified.Lestrade 15:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

It's kind of silly Lestrade. A system of prescriptive ethics seeks to tell you what you ought to do. Spinoza in his Ethics here, does indeed attempt to say what you ought to do. Therefore it is indeed an ethics. The "ethical life" merely being one in line with the 'ought.' --72.38.225.72 01:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's silly when a book is titled "Ethics" and hardly ever mentions values such as right, wrong, good, bad, and evil? When they are mentioned, the author claims that each natural human has to decide for himself as to what is right, wrong, good, bad, or evil. Spinoza claimed that nature is God. Therefore, essentially everything is divine and good when looked at under the broader, more general aspect of eternity (i.e., a very long time). This precludes ethics. Pantheism destroys the very essential idea of ethics, for there can be no virtue, as there can be no vice, where one is a part of the deity. Lestrade 20:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Natura

One way to read Ethics and make sense of it is to note that in two places Spinoza wrote "God or Nature" (Deus sive Natura). This equivalence can be found in Part IV, Preface and in Part IV, Proposition IV, Proof. If you read "Nature" every time you see the word "God," then the whole book is understandable. When Einstein said that he worshiped Spinoza's God, he meant that he found happiness when he studied nature.Lestrade (talk) 16:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Absent ethics

In the "Reference to Ethics" chapter of his On the Will in Nature [1], Schopenhauer said that the title of Spinoza's book "sounds almost like irony." He said that Spinoza's book "Ethics might be said to bear the name like lucus a non lucendo [2] [It is a lucus (dark, wooded grove) because there is no lucendo (brightness) (from Quintilian's Institutes of Oratory, 6, 34). That is, naming something after its opposite, as in: it is called Ethics because there are no ethics in it] and it is only by means of sophistry that he has been able to tack his morality on to a system, from which it would never logically proceed. In general, moreover, he disavows it downright [straightforwardly] with revolting assurance." Schopenhauer then cited Spinoza's Ethics, Part IV, Proposition 37, Scholium 2, in which Spinoza wrote:

there is in the state of nature nothing which by universal consent is pronounced good or bad; for in the state of nature everyone thinks solely of his own advantage, and according to his disposition, with reference only to his individual advantage, decides what is good or bad, being bound by no law to anyone besides himself.

and also "by sovereign natural right every man judges what is good and what is bad…." Thus, Spinoza's book Ethics claims that there is no such thing as ethics. There is no universal good or bad.Lestrade (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

The title is fitting as stating that there can be no ethics in its normal sense is important for the "field of ethics". Just as the title "On the flat Earth" is proper for the article proving the Earth is not flat, especially if at the time of publishing most were of the opinion that Earth is flat. Enemyunknown (talk) 14:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that Spinoza purposely titled his book Ethics in order to declare that there are no ethics? What do you mean by the phrase "in its normal sense"?Lestrade (talk) 17:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Ethical life

The article claims that Spinoza's system strives to "comprehend the meaning of an ethical life." Where does he define and discuss the "ethical life"? Where does he define and discuss life's meaning? For Spinoza, ethics are relative and everyone has their own definition of what is right.Lestrade (talk) 02:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

The Consolation of Philosophy

Has any biographer discovered if Spinoza's philosophy (Ethics, Part I, PROP. XXXIII. Things could not have been brought into being by God in any manner or in any order different from that which has in fact obtained) comforted him when his friend Johan de Witt was butchered and disemboweled? That would be worldly wisdom or "practical" philosophy, indeed.

Lestrade (talk) 03:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Proposed move

I suggest moving this page to Ethics (Spinoza) (currently a redirect here), a clearer title and in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which suggests a title precise to identify the subject unambiguously. If there is general agreement, or no argument to the contrary, I will do so in a couple of days. Chick Bowen 16:51, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Poor citation

The second paragraph has a quotation from a Penguin edition. The footnote shows the citation to be: Penguin Classics. Ethics. www.penguinclassics.com. This, however, directs to the main Penguin webpage with no reference to Spinoza's book. Is the quotation from some editor's or translator's introduction? Who is the editor or translator? Moreover, the quotation lamely tries to associate the title of Spinoza's book with the vague concept of "an ethical life." Lestrade (talk) 18:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Ethica Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata

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Please redirect the full title, Ethica Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata, to Ethics (book). 86.45.150.20 (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]