Talk:Amen break

The Amen break was even included as one of a few preset rhythms in the Windows digital audio sequencing and remixing program The Tuareg by professional programmer Bram Bos. The program focuses on the rhythmic manipulation of .WAV (RIFF WAVE) audio files. The Tuareg later evolved into Tu2 (Tuareg 2), and later into TunaFish which added VST and VSTi support for effects and instruments.

is this really relevant or necessary? i don't think so. Dreamyshade 21:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I think so. Dates on stuff like this would be nice though, as referring to the "rhythmic manipulation of wav files" sounds like it was a fairly fresh concept at the time :) [1]

Not necessary. It was included in many programs as grooves, rhytms, samples and a lot of other stuff, doesn't need to be mentioned I think. Reezpekt.

Richard L Spencer complaint

The founder of The Winstons added the following text to the article:

It is known that the drummer, G.C. Coleman,nor the copyright owner Richard L. Spencer,the grammy award winning composer and performer of the hit "Color Him Father," has never received any royalties for the sampling.It is once again the old habit of euro-centricity of copying and then claimimg the ideas of Black people.From the whites on the plantations in the south who chalked their faces with black soot and created Amos and Andy, as well as Al Jolson, to Benny Goodman hiring Black arrangers to write the music scores that made him "the king of swing,"to the shameful theft of R&B music from the Blacks like Chuck Berry, Little Richard,and others, by white music pimps who "created' someting called Rock and Roll, and installed Elvis,Jerry Lee Lewis,The Beatles, and other marginally talented souls, who of course , made billions while we die in poverty.So what else is new? Brittany Spears and M&M?

The text was posted form a computer in US (Charlotte) so I assume it was the real Richard Spencer. Mr Spencer, if it was really you please tell us how we can get in touch with you. I think something should be done regarding the royalties, it's not fair. Greetings.

- LOL. let's track all songs using the sample, the authors (thieves) ans get da money! i would be glad to hear a break of my music used in so many tracks! whether i'm greedy or not is another question... sampling is just part of modern music, it would endanger art to sue people sampling records or ask them money, as long as something different was made from the original record. let's not be people from the past... besides, even if legally spencer is the copyright owner, he would no less be a thief for collecting money when he was not the drummer.

- how many computers does charlotte count btw? don't get why he's assumed to be the author.

- the break was used in hip-hop (black music) before it was used in "white" music. because people liked it doesn't mean they wanted to steal the blacks again. what happened with blues & jazz (sad story that is part of the history of slavery) does not aply here imo. it's just a 5 seconds break for ****'s sake, not a musical genre.

my 2 pence. Yawn g 05:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This guy needs to keep in mind that perhaps one of the most famous usages of the Amen break is NWA - Straight Outta Compton. 68.221.205.180 20:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My initial reading of the now edited down comment was that it had been posted by some marketing type in the RIAA as a standard piece of "music piracy is evil" hyperbole. While I think that it's unfair that people don't get paid a fair amount for the uses of their work, I think that the real perpetrators of this crime are the record companies who have been more than happy to take the lion's share of the profits from musicians. So while I sympathise, I don't think that any artist has a right to sit back and say "now everyone's doing what I did, I should make some money from it". The whole of rap and mixing is about borrowing, sampling and reusing the culture that surrounds us, whether or not the owners of bits of it want to. PaulWay (talk) 11:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fake. It's full of grammatical errors (no space after a full stop), it uses the word "pimps" which doesn't sound serious, and the names of the last two persons are Britney and Eminem, not Brittany and M&M. Nevertheless I think the drummer should be credited and have royalties for his work. 92.105.72.38 (talk) 08:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stupid image/phrase

removed the image and its caption("the most influential 5.[xx] seconds in electronic music history"). It adds nothing. -mushroom

Stupid image? Got a better idea to visualise a sample loop? STOP REMOVING STUFF OR YOU GONNA GET BANNED! I know it's not your first time...

Why visualize it in the first place? It's a 5 second audio loop. Not to mention the caption is incredibly non-NPOV, along with much of the rest of the article (but I don't feel like cleaning that up right now). I think the image is pointless, but I won't delete it completely. The caption has to change, however. -mushroom

Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do.

But why is it the most influential? You can't verify a statement like that with facts. -mushroom

It was the most influential loop in history of electronic music because it was the only time when a simple 5sec sample break created a new subculture and new style of music. It is was used in thousands of tracks and it is the most often sampled break in history. Those are the facts.

Despite the fact that it's nearly impossibile to verify the statement "most often sampled break in history," I won't dispute it, simply because it is quite possibly true. However, the phrase "the most influential 5.20 seconds in the history of electronic music" is a very opinionated phrase, and it needs to be removed, along with many other things in the article. I mean, seriously, "The amen break is still to be found in many d'n'b tracks today and every dj knows that nothing is as sure to send the crowd wild as the amen break"? come on. that kind of wording doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. -mushroom

I think the image does add a small something to the article. I edited the caption to be neutral. Dreamyshade 05:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the image. Please keep it. Omphaloscope » talk 22:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The image is useless indeed, as it is a graphical repesentation of a sound that does not tell how the sound sounds. Well the pages *looks* better but beyond that it's useless, really, it has no point. if someone can tell what it adds apart from that, i'd be happy to know. Yawn g 05:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do." If you can prove it right please do... def a strange way of approaching knowledge: if something can't be proven wrong then it's right.Yawn g 05:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do." Really? I'm not so sure, in fact, this statement is blatantly inaccurate and fails to understand how Jungle (I'm presuming this is the genre you refer to) actually evolved, and what the components of the style are. The Amen break (or any specific break for that matter) did not in itself create a style or give rise to a subculture, it was only one element of a form that combined three existing genres in one: 1. Dub Reggae (the bass line, generally composed using low frequency sine tones and commonly refered to as sub-bass) 2. Soul (the vocal snippets, sometimes pitch shifted) 3. Funk (the breaks). Of course this template was subject to variation in terms of where the underlying components were sourced; but I would argue that this is a good starting point. You must also appreciate that what initially distinguished this genre of dance music from others was the dual time feel. The bass line was in cut time, while the full tempo break rolled over the top; with the vocal elements often serving to moderate between the two extremes. The three main components had all made appearances in a multitude of music’s prior to the emergence of Jungle/DnB but it was the unique Afro-Caribbean culture in London (arguably) that gave rise to this sound. I really think there is far too much significance being attributed to the influence of the Amen break and I'm sure if you could draw producers - from back in the day - into this debate, they would agree. We could sit here and name check dozens of influences on what would eventually become Jungle/DnB the Amen break is ultimately a tiny part of the equation.

Images of sound samples may be significant

The image of the wave form may possibly be significant. When analyzing something of interest, a visual model can be very helpful. Why is this sound pattern so popular? Why does it "feel good"? Of course usually the ears are the better tool for sound, the eyes can be helpful as well. For example, an interesting take on this particular sample is provided by Michael S. Schneider's observation of the golden ratio showing up extensively in this waveform. It's not surprising to me that the ears should be just as aesthetically soothed by Phi as the eyes are. --Maxelrod (talk) 04:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sound sample?

Any chance of getting a sound sample (or a link to one) here? Without hearing it, I have no idea how the amen break sounds. Riki 08:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[2] I found a clip here. Click where it says: "Download des Breaks: Amen Brother (WAV/2,5MB)". I don't know if Wikipedia can host this, as it is officially copyrighted accorded to Nate Harrison's video (see external links). Omphaloscope » talk 22:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can also watch Harrison's documentary about it. He plays the clip early in the video. Omphaloscope » talk 22:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, Wikipedia can host copyrighted material under fair use provisions. I've included the clip in the article. Omphaloscope » talk 23:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clip! Riki 08:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sound Program!

There used to be this program back in 1995-1999 which was called 'Amen!'. It could be downloaded, though I can't find it on the net anymore. Anyone finding it please contact me ( mailto:creativecontest@hotmail.com ). It used to have the original loop, and could break it up into as many pieces you'd like. playing those back in whatever order you would want. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but I thought this program used to be freeware.

YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 04:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not most sampled

"The 'Amen Break' or 'Amen' is the most frequently used sampled drum loop in hip hop, jungle and drum and bass music"

No? If so, how do you explain that website The Breaks lists only 32 sampling songs for it [3] as it lists 182 sampling songs, almost 6 times more, for the Funky Drummer? [4]

I get the feeling that it's all because that YouTube video claims that it's the most sampled break ever that it made it to this article. I mean, what backs that claim besides that video? Apparently nothing, therefore I'm editing that line, and please don't bring it back unless you can prove that it's been more frequently sampled than the Funky Drummer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.147.133.191 (talk • contribs) 06:28, December 14, 2006 (UTC)

As a non-drummer I have difficulties to distinguish between them. Happily ever after 15:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That website has an incomplete list, due to the underground nature of dnb, drill, idm, and whatnot, thousands of songs have been created using the amen break. T-1 22:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

HaHa

I can see that many people posting on this page don't know what they are talking about.. Those people have not followed rave culture for almost 20 years. Those people have not obsessed about amen, collecting every single tune song advert sound anything that has anything to do with the amen break. Those people have never been out to a club expecting to hear nothing but amen all night,(and have it delivered) Those people don't know people that have done all those things and lots more, people that speak about amen every day, people that have had dreams about amen, people that see amen codes rolling up the screen in octamed when they close their eyes at night. Those people don't know nothing about chopping or gidiups or twissing or plain rolling. Those people don't know amen at all. And most important of all, those people don't LOVE AMEN!!! (amen geek from london)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.106.105 (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Drumming tabs

Could someone please write a caption? What do the letters mean? H=Hi-hat and S=Snare? What is the K then? Kick bass? Happily ever after 15:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not terribly useful anyway as it only shows the first bar of the break. (The rhythm changes near the end of the break.) Ben Finn 13:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The image seems to be wrong. The third K shouldn't be there. It's not there in the notation at www.joejahnigen.com, and I can't for the life of me hear it in the song. Can someone fix this? --Justin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.134.241.226 (talk) 04:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is there as a ghost note, very quiet but there, and on the first 2 bars only. I will make a new tab, someone let me know if it's right or wrong! Tom Barlow (talk) 14:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The tabs are wrong. I'm sure. You can check it out for yourselves in any drum machine. Here is the good one (the basic form at least):

 h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-
 ----s--s--s--s-s
 k-k-----kk------

The two snares on the offbeat (each with a HH before it) at the end give it it's distinct ending. And the two short kicks start at the middle (5th HH) with a snare right before, and they land another snare on the beat (6th HH). 89.37.145.35 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this even tabbed if the music is right above it? 150.209.41.11 (talk) 02:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

the tab

The tab on this page is a bit confusing. Most drum notation has the hi-hat on the top rather than the middle. may a propose taking one from the blast beat and d-beat pages and use a similar notation?

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
h- x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
s- --------o-----o---o-----o----
b- o---o---------------o-o------

Barsofclay 21:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a ride, not a hi-hat. Anyone agree? Tom Barlow (talk) 13:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it's definitely a ride. Will (talk) 03:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I extended it to 4 bars of the break (adding 3 bars and leaving the bar that was already there unchanged). I researched it on the web and couldn't find any authoritative source, but I found some info in this forum [5] and tried playing it myself. It may not be 100% accurate, but I think it has the basic structure right. Asmoe (talk) 23:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The 3+ of the last two bars of the break currently has two sixteenths on the bass drum, when on both occasions it should only be a single eighth note.

overhyped

I think this is just another case of overhyped urban legend. This kind of break is pervasive in most R&B and soul music of mid sixties. For a relatively mainstream example listen to the drum line in Jimi Hendrix's Fire. That was recorded in 1967. DnB took these loops an played them faster. That's all.

no, on the most part DnB and jungle took this loop in particular (as well as the funky drummer and the think break) and played it faster. --Kaini 17:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hip Hop

Actually the first Hip Hop track to use this break was Salt n' Peper's "I Desire" produced by Hurby "Luv Bug" Azor released in 1986. I think this section; "The first Hip-Hop producer to dismember the drum sounds of the Amen break and reprogram them into a new pattern was Mr. Mixx of 2 Live Crew on their 1987 song "Feel Alright Y'all" from the Move Somethin' album, followed by the Mantronix sample-heavy track "King of the Beats" in 1988." , needs to be rewitten to accommodate this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sureshot2k0 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Beginning drummers are often taught it as a first exercise"

I'm a drum teacher, and I know a fair few others. I've never heard of any of them teaching this groove as a first excercise (and I certainly don't either), the various difficulties inherent in a rhythm like this would be beyond the capabilities of any drummer I'm teaching for the first time. To me it sounds like a throwaway bullshit comment. I'm loathe to remove it from the article myself as I'm not sure of the ins and outs of Wiki editing, but I thought I should definitely flag it for someone else to have a look at!-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.31.35 (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the section is about hip hop, perhaps it should read "Beginning hip hop drummers are often taught it as a first exercise.", does anyone actually teach "hip hop drumming"? Do hip hop drummers even use drums? Perhaps they're taught about it, not taught how to drum it. 64.231.137.251 (talk) 04:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Corporate America

"While the (less than six second) "Amen Break" is recognizable in many genres (corporate America, Hip Hop, Rock etc)," - what does that first genre sound like exactly? Lfh (talk) 06:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mono image enough

Image:Amen break sample image.png is a image of two channels? Wouldn't a single channel be enough for a good image? Jidanni (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mono image enough

Image:Amen break sample image.png is a image of two channels? Wouldn't a single channel be enough for a good image? Jidanni (talk) 07:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, this shows both the left and right channels of the sample, if you look closely some of the lines differ. Since we live in a Stereo (2 Channel) age, most things are recorded in Stereo. You are seeing both channels. 68.33.55.228 (talk) 03:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, the image shows 2 bars of music, not 4. I changed it so not it is correct.