Talk:Voiced pharyngeal fricative

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Claimed occurencres

Changed "Many languages claiming to have pharyngeal fricatives or approximants" to "Many languages claimed to ...", since languages, qua abstract entities, presumably do not go around claiming anything. Orcoteuthis 18:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In French?

Doesn't this sound also exist in French (in the pronunciation of "r" or "rr")? Badagnani (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The French sound is Uvular. If a speaker has a pharyngeal realization, it's probably ideolectal.— Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; can we add a short section in this article describing the differences and why the voiced pharyngeal fricative is not a uvular trill (although they sound quite similar to the English-speaking ear)? To me, they sound the same and was wondering why the French sound wasn't included. Badagnani (talk) 21:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, because this sound isn't anything like the typical French <r>, and should not sound like that even to the English-speaking ear. The sound recording in the article doesn't reflect native pronunciation, which might be why it sounds like that to you. A common mistake that non-native speakers/learners of this sound make is using a more velar or uvular place of articulation. — Zerida ☥ 06:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with putting sourced information about the accoustical properties of this or other sounds on Wikipedia. But this is sourced information, not original research about how it sounds like other similar consonants to English speakers. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for the claim that a native-spoken voiced pharyngeal fricative sounds like a uvular fricative to English speakers? — Zerida ☥ 06:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I pronounce them about the same and it seems to me they're pronounced in a similar way. Badagnani (talk) 06:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know of no source that makes that argument. Even if sources like those used at non-native pronunciations of English can be found that argue that English speakers have difficulty with such sounds, it's still a POV issue here. That's why I'd argue against it. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is irrelevant. (see the topic below).--AMSA83 19:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMSA83 (talk • contribs)

I speak french and it's true, in some areas in France (not in Quebec, Belgium, Switzerland and Africa), the "guttural r" is pronounced like a voiced pharyngeal fricative. It's "dialectal".

Sound sample and article do not match!!!!

The sound sample is more like a voiced velar fricative (associated with the Arabic letter ghain غ) than the sound the article talks about (one associated with the Arabic letter 'ain ع). The dotting difference between the two Arabic letters may have brought about the error. A new sound sample may be needed. --AMSA83 22:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the sample with one I recorded.-- AMSA83 19:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMSA83 (talk • contribs)

Does the sound really not occur at all in Arabic?

The sound sample sounds exactly like how I hear all Levantine and Egyptian Arabic speakers realize ayn in MSA. It sounds deeper than a typical realization in Eastern urban dialects, but even then I can't say I have ever heard a stop in anyone's realization of ayn, I mean yeah it is certainly some kind of approximant, but a stop? I am sure the source for this probably has its reasons for describing the sound as a pharyngealized stop, but is it a majority opinion? And in all cases, shouldn't Arabic still be in the table with the note at the end kept for clarification and a reference to the Arabic phonology page? I will wait a couple of days to see what everyone thinks, if I don't hear anything I will add an Arabic line to the table labeling it (Standard Arabic and some dialects) and refer to the Arabic phonology page. Cheers --Karkaron (talk) 23:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was asked this a few months ago on my talk page. The long and the short of it is that because earlier sources could not make a distinction between pharyngeal and epiglottal or between a pharyngeal fricative and pharyngealized glottal stop, earlier accounts are suspect. More recent accounts will generally base the description of Arabic sounds on earlier accounts so that the only thing we can really accept is a source that lays it out saying "this is what so-and-so says about pharyngeal consonants being epiglottal and our phonetic study shows that in this dialect it is truly pharyngeal." — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What dialects of Arabic does the source study? I am particularly concerned about the way most Arabs pronounce the sound in MSA, to me it matches the sound sample here perfectly. Is there a sound sample for what the true Arabic sound is? But if Arabic in general, standard Arabic in particular doesn't have a plain pharyngeal, does that mean it isn't found on the IPA chart? What amount of diactricalization is needed to represent it? And most importantly, does this mean that all IPA transcriptions of Arabic words on Wikipedia should be corrected? Moreover since the survival of this sound in Hebrew is restricted to dialects with strong contact with Arabic, does this also extend to Hebrew? This is really interesting, I'll try to check out the reference.

--Karkaron (talk) 13:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From my understanding, the idea of a true perfect/uniform MSA is a myth. It seems as though speakers fluent in MSA are influenced phonologically by their native dialect. One possibility for dialects is a voiced epiglottal fricative, which is on the IPA chart. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to all:

The recording was extracted from a an internet source that exemplifies all the IPA sounds (i.e. all languages of the world, and Arabic was one among them) by ONE SINGLE speaker (phonetician). Definitely the speaker CANNOT represent the native pronunciation of ALL these languages. The ideal situation is that he should have asked native speakers from all around the world to send him samples of sounds of their languages. This of course would be time-consuming and difficult to achieve in some cases of languages. The sound represeted here is of course - as most reviewers have noticed- a voiced UVULAR fricative and it was articulated in a low, back-vowel environment [scribe-a]. This is not enough (and it may mislead some foreign learners of Arabic). It is better that this sound should also be articulated in a front, low-vowel environment [ash]. (User: 9abdulla). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.154.153.76 (talk) 03:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

done! --Wayunga (talk) 04:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Add Arabic

Arabic should be added to the list... the 'Voiced pharyngeal fricative' is in arabic...btw, in arabic...the word Arabic is spelled "ʕrabi" (عربي)...

I can't add it myself because i nearly got the table messed up :O

9K58 Smerch (talk) 11:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Voiced_pharyngeal_fricative1.ogg may be deleted

I have tagged File:Voiced_pharyngeal_fricative1.ogg, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. --Chris 07:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright tag added as needed. --AMSA83 12:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMSA83 (talk • contribs)

In Danish

According to Guttural_R, the guttural, rhotic consonant in Danish is a voiced pharyngeal fricative. --213.236.196.39 (talk) 21:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, according to Ladefoged on page 323 of Sounds of the World's languages "the Danish ‘r’ sound in words such as ‘raad’ (council) is not a uvular approximant as some textbooks describe it, but a pharyngeal approximant with an articulatory position similar to that in a low back vowel." — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sound file

What is the full sequence of sounds in this recording? (E.g. for most of the other consonants the recording is [ka: aka:] where k = consonant). Lfh (talk) 10:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sound quality

The sound file seems to be recorded at a very low sample rate, and it's difficult to make out anything but a vowel "a". -- 92.229.117.222 (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is at a low quality, but you probably can't hear anything but the vowel because your ears aren't primed to hear the sound. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]