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Revision as of 17:10, 2 September 2010 by Truthbody(talk | contribs)(→Propaganda: deleted unhelpful and contentious statement -- please back up what you say with some citations or facts if you are going to accuse people of propaganda)
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According to the COI page, "This page in a nutshell: Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers, unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits are in the best interest of Wikipedia."
Emptymountains' edits on this page in 2010: [1], [2]
Truthbody's edits on this page in 2010: [3], [4], [5], [6]
Frankly it is not just in 2010 - the issues I'm concerned about go right back to the beginnings of the article, so it is almost impossible to disentangle them now. IMO much of the text of the article (and likewise that of other closely related articles such as Dorje Shugden, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc.) almost reads like promotional material and certainly does not read like a good encyclopedia article. Bluntly put, if anything which might seem negative to dedicated followers of the New Kadampa Tradition gets added to one of these articles then, almost immediatly, it either gets deleted, modified so it no longer offends the perceptions of dedicated disciples, or paragraphs and paragraphs of counteracting "views" get added. Sometimes it is more subtle a few words are it added, changed or re-ordered with what seems to be the deliberate goal of putting a particualar "spin" or POV on things. Any single editor or even a few editors who try to improve the article cannot keep up with the dedicated disciples who monitor these articles and will almost immediatly jump in when anything is changed. Most have given up trying.
If you are a member of the NKT I'm afraid saying you are "neutral" regarding the subject is almost like saying you can be neutral about your husband, wife or children. I'd say the same thing to members of many other dedicated religous organisations or of similarly dedicated political movements when they get involved in meddling with articles whose subject is those groups that they are likwise involved in.
I don't doubt the sincerity or intentions of yourself and some other contributors. One presuades oneself of ones own neutrality and thinking that because of ones personal involvement and insider knowlege that you are particularly knowlegeable about the subject, it is hard not meddle when something is written that doesn't agree with your own POV.
I'm aware that there are also some other contributors to these articles who may be dissaffected former members of the NKT, or who for some other reason have an axe to grind regarding the NKT, Geshe Kelsang, DS, etc. and IMO they should likewise stay clear of editing these articles for pretty much the same reasons.
IMO at this point all these articles actually need a complete re-write from the ground uprather than any more tinkering - it might even be best if someone with some experience of academic researchwriting but had no prior knowlege of the subject could be persuaded to read the available academic articles and books on the subject and write a new article soley based on that information.
Meanwhile, rather than attempting more tinkering with, or even re-writing these articles - for which I have neither the time nor the energy - I've put a COI notice on this article just to flag to ordinary users that much of the content as it stands has been added or changed by contributors who have direct involvement or a "close connection" with the subject of the article which, no matter how you spin it, appears to be a conflict of interest. This notice is also to put there to flag the article to encourage other uninvolved editors to improve or rewrite the article.
BTW Saying that a person has a conflict of interest does not mean that they have necessarily done anything impartial. Ministers for instance are often required to divest themselves of any commercial or financial interests they have related to their portfolio; judges are expected to exclude themselves from cases where they personally know one of the parties involved; and doctors are not allowed to practice medicine on their own family members - all this is due to conflict of interest.
Chris, welcome back. Looking at those sections you quote above, I find it hard to see how they are in any way [WP:COI] and I propose we remove the flag as there seems to be no justification for it. As I always endeavour to be neutral and back up what I say with sources and so on, you cannot accuse me of WP:COI any more than you can accuse practically anyone on Wikipedia (who writes about what they know and are interested in) of the same thing, including your good self. Accuracy and neutrality depends on what you do, not who you are -- it is discriminatory to simply say that anyone who might be in the NKT organization has a conflict of interest. I always do my best to maintain wiki principles, the five pillars. Point out any instances where you feel I actually fail in maintaining the five pillars and I can address them individually. However, if you are making a blanket generalization, this is a mistake. Your history of openly criticizing the NKT on other forums would similarly make you a suspect editor on this article about the NKT. In other words, you are not neutral toward the NKT. However, if the editing you do manages to be neutral, and you put your personal feelings aside, it doesn't matter. We all try to be professional on Wikipedia.(Truthbody (talk) 20:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC))[reply]
The COI page says: "Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers, unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits are in the best interest of Wikipedia." I can see no examples where the editors you mention above, including myself, promote our own interests or the interests of the NKT. Almost every sentence is backed up with verifiable and third-party sources. Indeed, this article is very watertight and has been scrutinized so often that its standards are very high. The COI page also says: "Closeness to a subject does not mean you're incapable of being neutral, but it may incline you towards some bias. You may either submit proposed edits on the talkpage of the article, or, if deciding to directly edit, ensure you closely adhere to relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, verifiability, and autobiography; and that you declare your interest on the talkpage." Again, the editors you mention do declare their interest and they do adhere to the relevant policies and guidelines, especially (WP:NPOV), verifiability and autobiography. Therefore, there is no justification for your adding of the flag as you cite no instances that warrant your accusation. (Truthbody (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC))[reply]
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