Talk:Battle of Malplaquet

Result?

Sorry, I meant to explain this edit in the edit summary, but accidently clicked Enter. I think "Pyrrhic Allied victory" is as good a description of the result as any. I think "Indecisive" isn't really clear. The French were forced to retreat, but the British suffered such heavy casualties that they were not able to persue. Hence Pyrrhic victory. --JW1805 (Talk) 01:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

That's about right. William Weir considered this one of his "fatal victories" in the book of the same title. The French had been on the ropes for several years, but remained in better shape than their enemy even though they conceded the battlefield. This battle was one of the major reasons the United Kingdom recalled Malborough a few years later and left the war and Philip was able to keep the throne of Spain and most of its possessions, which, after all, was what the war was about.--Syd Henderson (talk) 02:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Have moved the qualification 'pyrrhic' with explanation and refs to body of article, changed info box back to neutral indecisive.Tttom1 (talk) 02:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Aftermath section

The myth that the French folksong dates from the battle is debunked here: "Malbrouk or Marlbrough (Marlbro'), does not date from the battle of Malplaquet (1709), but from the time of the Crusades, 600 years before. According to a tradition discovered by M. de Châteaubriand, the air came from the Arabs, and the tale is a legend of Mambron, a crusader. It was brought into fashion during the Revolution by Mme. Poitrine, who used to sing it to her royal foster-child, the son of Louis XVI. M. Arago tells us that when M. Monge, at Cairo, sang this air to an Egyptian audience, they all knew it, and joined in it. Certainly the song has nothing to do with the Duke of Marlborough, as it is all about feudal castles and Eastern wars. We are told also that the band of Captain Cook, in 1770,..."[1]

The quip about France being saved by a few more of these defeats apparently is from Villars, not Boufflers:« Si Dieu nous fait la grâce de perdre encore une pareille bataille, Votre Majesté peut compter que tous ses ennemis seront détruits. » Lettre du maréchal de Villars à Louis XIV après la bataille de Malplaquet du 11 septembre 1709. [2]

The Tories indeed used this Pyrrhic victory as a stick to beat Marlborough with, but to say that they were "moved" by it to begin agitating for withdrawal from the war is stretching events. (See W.S. Churchill, Marlborough. His Life and Times)--Ereunetes (talk) 23:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Battle section

One should keep track of the wings or "flanks" of the respective armies. Gen. Withers was never on the left wing of the Allied army, opposite the right wing of the French, though he was supposed to be there, before the battle started; unfortunately his column arrived too late from Tournai, so it was apportioned to the Allied right wing. And this was opposite the French left wing, pace the text in the article.

Also, the Dutch left wing did not "break off" (from what?) but started its diversionary attack at 9.30 am as planned, though the Dutch unfortunately had not been informed that it was only intended as "diversionary", and that they were opposed by a force twice their size. Hence the appalling losses.--Ereunetes (talk) 23:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Flags

There is something going on in the info box about the proper flag icons. I am no expert, so I won't get involved in the editing, but it seems to me what is needed is either the "lily" flag of the Kingdom of France (pre-Revolution) or possibly a battle flag, but not a naval flag (obviously).--Ereunetes (talk) 20:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Prisoners?

Does anybody know the number of prisoners taken by the Allied forces when they broke the French centre? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.19.40 (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I am sure someone, somewhere has come up with a number. However, I'd be very skeptical as to its exactness. This also applies to the number of killed and wounded. When I researched the Dutch numbers it turned out that these were estimates based on extrapolation from the number of officers killed (for which relatively exact figures are known) and then applying "usual" casualty figures to the units they commanded. It is known that the number of wounded was enormous, as it took unusual (for the times) difficulties to organize the care for them in the aftermath of the battle, even though the Allies had the battlefiled to themselves. This probably contributed to the number of people dying shortly after the battle. As to the prisoners: I suppose the number of officers captured will be relatively well documented, but I doubt if anything trustworthy can be said about "other ranks."--Ereunetes (talk) 20:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

revert of anonymous edit

I reverted the edit by 90.206.194.43, firstly because it is anonymous, but primarily because it unreasonably introduces a POV. I did not write the current phrase stating that the battle in fact was a "French strategic victory," but I think this opinion is eminently defensible on the basis of a consensus among historians of the battle. If the anonymous editor thinks he/she has arguments for his edit, let it please present them.--Ereunetes (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've reworded it a bit, setting out the key points of the outcome. I disagree with idea that it was a "French strategic victory" however. Villars' objective was the raise the siege of Mons, and regardless of the damage he inflicted on Marlborough's army, he failed to achieve that objective. Captain Seafort (talk) 18:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I think your reworded version is completely acceptable. The anonymous edit I reverted seemed to be contrary to the historical facts. I won't quibble about the question whether it was a "strategic victory" and if so, whose :-)--Ereunetes (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

French strategic victory

Since this victory allowed France to regain its territories lost earlier in the war, I propose that the aftermath be changed to "Allied tactical victory, French strategic victory." -- LightSpectra (talk) 18:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What territories? The only sense in which Malplaquet was a French victory was that their army was still more or less intact, and Marlorough's had been badly mauled, strengthening the anti-war party in Britain. You may be confusing it with Denain Captain Seafort (talk) 21:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The weakening of Churchill's army is what made Denain a possibility, I would argue. -- LightSpectra (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

´French strategic victory´ is not consistent with text I think: according to article Marlborough wanted to take the fortress of Mons. Because of his (pyrrhic) victory he was able do that. This would be a strategic victory for the allies then. ABMvandeBult (talk) 08:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

"Bloodiest battle of the 18th century"

The page on the Battle of Blenheim says that the total number of dead and wounded was over 32,000. If that page is incorrect, then I apologize for removing the reference that in this article that Malplaquet was the bloodiest battle. -- LightSpectra (talk) 23:28, 10 November 2009 (UTC)