Talk:Christianity

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recent changes

I want to go over some of the changes I made to try to accurately characterize the positions fairly, and some change to improve the NPOV language. Finally, removal of some sections which could be combined, removing redundancies.

It orginally said "scholarship suggests that Christianity may have also emerged, in part and out of the various mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East in antiquity, such as Gnosticism and various mystery cults. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include the Nasseni, Essenes,Therapeutae, Gnostics, Dionysus, and there is much speculation..."

I changed this by introducing a brief statment that this is a minority view in Christian scholarship, but common in secular sholarship that "Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include Gnosticism, the Nasseni, Essenes,Therapeutae, Dionysus, and various mystery cults."

Notice how above it states mystery teaching twice needlessly, and does not characterize the fact that this is just a view among secular scholars. My changes characterize the positions and removes redunancies.

I also changed, Professor Barry Powell, and others, argue that many elements of Christianity were also influenced by the cult of Dionysus.

To the more accurately worded,

Many scholars, such as Professor Barry Powell, argue that the cult of Dionysus played a signifiant influuencing role in the development of Christianity.

I also noted that when I quote scholars points of view, as long as it says , "According to -x---, such and such influenced.." it can be stated as a fact. Even if its their opinion, its factual. since we are only stating what so and so scholars said. There is no need to add words such as "alleged" in their statments unless we get rid of "According to...." Then its needed. Ofcourse, we can quote scholars from the other point of view, too, if they refute these the view points. Giovanni33 10:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No, Giovanni. There is no such thing as "secular" scholarship - don't try to paint those scholars who don't subscribe to the views quoted by you as "religious"/"Christian" and therefore dubious.

Although a minority view among mainstream Christan scholarship, its is commonly accepted in secular academic circles that ..

It isn't possible to seperate this into two fields. And while theories about the influence of MCs are common to scholarship no one theory or all of the together are "commonly accepted", nor is a "Christianity started out as a MC" common - the common theories consider MCs an influence and not a starting point.

I agree with you quoting scholars in principle and would advise against weasel words such as alleged unless it is absolutely necessary. But keep in mind the overview character of this section here - but at the moment I am a bit liberal on this, as Early Christianity might benefit from this. Str1977 10:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Str, I dont think Christian scholarship is a bad thing, and doing scholarhip from a Christian view doesn't imply its therefore dubious, any more so than an Atheist doing scholarship for his view. It might produce different emphasis in their final works but none are dubious alone for this reason. It only refects the fact that (correct me if I'm wrong) most Christian scholarship by Christians in Biblical Studies who are in the mainstream dispute these links to mystery religions, etc. Am I wrong? I think that is what the argument claimed. Whereas it is common in secular scholarship circles to argue for such links, but they are in the minority of biblical experts. Am I mischaracterizing the disputes of the parties visavis these positions accurately and fairly? Giovanni33 11:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that you don't thinkg Christian scholarship a bad thing, but I was worried that your version suggested that, putting it into opposition with the phantomg "secular scholars". Also, adherence to the "traditional account" is not bound up with being a Christian - and there are probably also Christians that agree with the "MC account", so I don't understand them. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

And yes, I agree that common theories consider MC and influence, not a starting point. I don't believe anyone has ever made the argument that MC would a starting place, only one out of many possible influences in its development. I try to adopt the same language and reflect the arguments made by these secular scholars. I know you object to the use secular scholars but I think its important to state since it does seem to be a point of division, and therefore relevant. Giovanni33 11:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

In past versions this was at least suggested ("C. existed as a variety of mystery cults" etc.), but I am glad that that appearently wasn't intentional. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Str, lets try to review changes here, esp. any drastic changes before making them in the main page, because it looks like we are both working at the same time. Giovanni33 11:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

All right. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Str, I took to heart your suggestion and removed the mention of any division of secular and christian scholars, with this new text: "Although some of the attributed influences are a minority view among mainstream scholarship, its is commonly accepted in academic circles that Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed."

What do you think? Giovanni33 11:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It is a feasible starting point and I will include it for the moment, as I have to leave shortly. But I will get back to you soon. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I already did include it. I'll make suggestions for changes, and I notice you have your own version for several sections. Maybe place them here so I can tell you what objections I have with them and why I think my version is more appropriate. I think we can come to a compromise. Deal? I really want to get passed the silly edit wars. Giovanni33 11:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Giovanni, Str1977. Lets all work together on this...this time. :) BelindaGong 11:49, 26 January 2006 (

I am at a loss to understand what seems to be a new proposed policy by Giovanni and Belinda that new, controversial stuff which is disputed by many on the talk page should stay up in the article while we discuss it, and that those who remove it are starting edit wars but that it's perfectly okay to keep inserting it despite objections. Belinda, you're close to violating the revert rule, because, like Giovanni, you're splitting reverts between your user name and your IP address AnnH ^(talk) 12:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Ann, maybe you are a loss to understand because you have not been following the talk page. For most of the evening editors have been working on the new content. We are making significant progress. All of a suddent its all removed and are again back to square one--if this is left up. This is not a new proposed policy by anyone its what was working and apparently consensus among editors since they did not revert but choose to contribute with their edits. In just one day of doing this its markedly improved. Now you would have us go back to this old version which a matter of contention because you claims we dont have consensus yet? Are you the defender of the old order until we reach some undefined consensus (we have to take a vote before making changes?). Removing material that several editors are working on based on compromises taking place here on the talk page is counter productive. And, on I did not make any reverts using my IP address within the last 24 hours as you claim. BelindaGong 12:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

You have certainly reached your 3RR threshold now. I didn't see any consensus...just a starting point paragraph (which I retained but reworded for spelling & clarity). Please review WP:3RR before reverting again...thanks...KHM03 12:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Belinda, I have been following the talk page. The new material in the article, added by Giovanni and supported by you and a few new editors with no prior history, who may or may not be sockpuppets, is controversial. Several editors have problems with it. I and others think that when something is disputed it should not go in the article until an agreement has been reached. That seems far more logical than the idea of leaving it until we can get you, Giovanni, and the others to agree that there are problems.

Well, the editors who were all working together by making edits within the context of the new sections intorduced by Giovanni after there he reached a new consensus on here for doing so include: Mikereichold, MikaM, Fubar Obfusco, Storm Rider, Wesley, Giovanni, Belinda(myself)and even Str1977 (until he reverted back at the end for some reason, and then you and KH03 came to enforce that old version). So you see why I am sad that after so much progress that was started by a proposal from Storm Rider, which gained a lot of support, we are reverted once again. Well, whatever works, but the reverting to the old version that is also hotly diputed, didnt' yield much progress since it was defended by a couple old editors who were not open to change. BelindaGong 13:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Since you criticized my behaviour, I will explain. I am more than willing to work on a compromise with you, but I will not accept your constant substitung the earlier, less contentious version for the contentious version. If smaller edits got lost in the process, that was not my intention. Most of all, I will not accept the "blind faith" paragraph, which constitutes a legendary account from former times and a gross carricature of historical reality. Str1977 17:22, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your denial of reverting with your IP address, I have already asked you if you are User:38.114.145.148 or not, and you have not replied. It seems to be strongly indicated by your signature here and by your creation of an account with the name Belinda a few minutes later. If you are User:38.114.145.148, could you please confirm it, because it's getting really confusing with all these signatures on talk pages, and all these reverts from anons. Also, is this edit (which has nothing to do with reverting, but comes from a very similar IP, and makes your arguments) yours as well?

I dont' know what my IP address is, but if my name is there (Belinda) that its probably me. The other IP adddress you list is not mine because I didn't write that. And, no that other person doesnt make my arguments. I have never been a Christian. I am a Buddhist. I think you should do a puppet check it is much better that you do that and confrim the truth and simply keep speculating and insinuating. Its better for us that we are given more legitimacy too and I don't think its fair for Giovanni either, so I hope you do a check so that issue is settled. BelindaGong 13:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

If you are User:38.114.145.148 your revert rule violation is here.

12:26, 25 January 2006

12:59, 25 January 2006

11:44, 26 January 2006

12:00, 26 January 2006

12:31, 26 January 2006

Even if you're not, it's still a violation, because only the first one came from the anon.

Could you please confirm. And in any case, please stop reverting to controversial stuff that was added recently, has not been accepted, and is still under discussion. Thanks AnnH ^(talk) 12:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you can explain to me what appears to be a double standard in effect here with the use of "needing to get consensus before making changes." Is this standard supposed to apply to everyone equally because it certainly is not in practice? Perhaps there is some rule I'm not aware about. In practice KH03 and STR1977 can introduce changes, new paragraphs, sentences, make deletions, etc, and will revert to their version to enforce it. And then you enforce this if too many other editors contest and rv back. But, you will not revert back their new work under the claim of "no consensus was reached." However, this is exactly what you do whenever I and/or other editors make our own changes-- even small ones, and even when we do make the case on the talk page for the changes first and get some agreement. These changes, however, are not allowed to stand, if KH03 or Str19977 disagree--but not the other way around! And, they don't need to make the case on the talk page, or get consensus—or even try to--either!

There's no double standard. The version I and KHM base our edits on happens to be the version preceding yours (apart from my stylistic changes) and it would be a great help if you used it as a basis too - your (small) changes wouldn't get lost. Also, neither I nor KHM changed this version all that much and when we did it was to reach consensus with you guys and your legitimate requests. KHM did a great overhaul to try reach compromise (to no avail) and I yesterday and today have made compromises with you, Giovanni, e.g. on Beowulf, on the "scholars" passage. If your are unhappy with any of our smaller changes than please speak up and point out your grievances and we will address them (I think I can speak for KHM on this too). Str1977

So, I have to wonder what is the rationale behind this seeming double standard? It is just discrimination based on editors being new, and if so how long do we have to be here before we get equal rights? Or can we ever have equal rights since we will always have less seniority? Or is it due to having a different perspective from the church elders? Does one have to be a Christian first to have equal rights (or maybe special privleges?) Or maybe its just because they are your friends? I don't know but the fact is that they can revert and make changes, without needing to get a consensus first. However when I or others try this, it's a matter of "needing to get consensus first!, and you enforce the revert to whatever version (new or old) that the aformentioned church elders introduce.

There has been discrimination on editors being new, as I think both I and KHM (he more than I) have been quite patient with you. Ann also has not used her powers as an administratrix despite your violation of the 3RR. Str1977

Lastly, I wonder what getting a consensus really means, in practical terms. Does it mean everyone must agree, or just a majority? Or at least 50%? And, what if no one responds? Does that mean no change can be introduced, or that its not challenged and can be introduced? And if so, after how long of a wait? When others dont agree, even though references are produced to support the proposed change and all their objections are refuted, and then there no response, but they still dont agree anyway out of, say, dogmatism--does this in effect mean that just one or two people can block it the change? Would such a senario be a case here you'd say there's still no consensus? I’d like to know the rules about how this works because right now it seems very unfair to say the least. 64.121.40.153 15:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Consensus, in Wiki standards, doesn't mean everyone agrees and it doesn't mean a majority of 50%, but an overwhelming majority. If no one responds then there is no objection, but there has been response both here and on Early Christianity, since you are obviously referring to this page too. Str1977 17:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The reverts need to stop as everytime I come back to my computer I'm about 6 changes behind! Even though I'm really interested in the stuff Giovanni (& socks?) are saying it really doesn't fit here. This should be sorted out in the Early Christianity page where there is room to structure all the ideas that have relevant scholarly backing (Christian or otherwise) and section these ideas to give some indication of their general acceptance. Part of the problems here are that lots of information that raises loads of questions is having to be squeezed in a way that distorts it to no ones satisfaction. At the moment the changes on either side are not staying long enough for anyone not involved in the edit war to read them and make sensible comments.

In 50 years time what Giovanni is saying may be mainstream but whatever my POV I agree that it has no place in the top level Christianity page other than to mention the scholarly discussions and provide links.

Maybe, maybe not. These theories were fashionable about a century ago. Str1977

Am I wrong in saying that there was a general consensus to add a reference to Elaine Pagels and Gnosticism to provide further reading for those interested. Also a link to Early Christianity should be added somewhere to the history section (if it's not already there)at this term is used on the history graph (if it hasn't disappeared again) and this will allow interested users to follow up.

You are right in what you say about Mrs Pagels - but it should be concise. A link to EC is certainly valid and will be included. Str1977

Bear in mind Giovanni that some poor kid out there is trying to do his Religious Education homework from this site and he's going to get really confused if we go into huge (contested) detail on this page. SOPHIA 13:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Exactly my argument for a couple of days. Thanks Sophia. Str1977 17:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

nit picking technical note: Please, Str1977 and others, please don't interleave your comments with someone else's unless you sign each and every one. Otherwise it quickly becomes very difficult to know who said what. Doing that also separates the original person's comment from their signature... the only good "defense" against this I've seen is for the first person to sign every paragraph individually just in case someone decides to respond in the middle of their comment. Avoiding the interleaving would make that less necessary. Wesley 17:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

We are the Queen's subjects and must obey. ;-) Str1977 18:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't often find much to criticize in Str1977, but I have to confess I groan as well, when I see unsigned comments indented inside other people's comments, especially if I've been away from the page for while, and lots of people have contributed. Of course, on another page where I've seen him doing this, I was able to guess who had written what because of the plenking and klemping (or absence thereof)! But I don't have that little aid here. ;-) By the way, Wesley, you need the pipeline rather than a colon in the unsigned template. I've fixed it. AnnH ^(talk) 18:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Acutally, I've now, while tidying the page in other ways, got rid of the unsigned template for Str's posts, and replaced them with a forged (!) signature, which I thought was more appropriate, since he did sign his posts. The problem was that posts got broken through having so many comments breaking other posts. If we keep doing that, maybe we should just type the name of the contributor just before breaking his/her post, and sign our own comments. AnnH ^(talk) 11:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I promise that I will avoid doing this. I agree that indenting it all at the same level does not work when discussions get long and full of different people. Maybe I spent too much time discussing with a single individual, though he changed his name once in a while.

I hope you like the allusion I made, Ann. Str1977 00:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes! :-) AnnH ^(talk) 11:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Wiki NPOV Policy Review

I think that we can all benefit reviewing the Wiki policy on NPOV. I know we all think we know it, but in practice, I think many of us can slip back into non encylopedic mind frames. I excerted several sections and include them below so that we can review this and see how it applies to solving the ongoing conflicts here. I feel that if we did follow these guidelines from the start we would have avoided a lot of needless edit conficts. I think Storm Rider tact refects the a Wiki NPOV stance, and I hope that after reading the text below, we can all come to an agreement with him about allowing the content I've been advocating inclusion for. Giovanni33 08:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy. Articles without bias describe debates fairly instead of advocating any side of the debate. Since all articles are edited by people, this is difficult, as people are inherently biased. . What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view.

A solution is that we accept, for the purposes of working on Wikipedia, that "human knowledge" includes all different significant theories on all different topics. So we're committed to the goal of representing human knowledge in that sense.

Nearly every view on every subject will be found among our authors and readers. To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly, and not assert any one of them as correct. That is what makes an article "unbiased" or "neutral" in the sense we are presenting here. To write from a neutral point of view, one presents controversial views without asserting them; to do that, it generally suffices to present competing views in a way that is more or less acceptable to their adherents, and also to attribute the views to their adherents. Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia. They are not re-enacted. We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly.

There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. The presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the creators of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions themselves. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing.

Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.

A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view that is "neutral" or "intermediate" among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what "neutral point of view" means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.

Another point bears elaboration as well. Writing unbiasedly can be conceived very well as representing disputes, characterizing them, rather than engaging in them.

Undue weight Now an important qualification. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.

· If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; · If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

Bias

Bias need not be conscious. For example, beginners in a field often fail to realize that what sounds like common sense is actually biased in favor of one particular view. The policy of having a neutral point of view is not to hide different points of view, but to show the diversity of viewpoints. In case of controversy, the strong points and weak points will be shown according to each point of view, without taking a side. The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral.

We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. Certainly, there are bound to be borderline cases where a fact is disputed but we're not sure if we should take the dispute seriously, or where the distinction between fact and value will itself necessarily be in dispute. Nevertheless, there are many propositions that clearly express undisputed facts, and others that clearly express values or opinions. That a survey produced a certain published result is a fact.

In presenting an opinion, moreover, it is important to bear in mind that there are disagreements about how opinions are best stated; sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation. But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (as defined in the previous paragraph) are not Points Of View in and of themselves. A good way to help building a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to wikipedia, and then cite that source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without excluding that the debate has other sides. The trick is to find the best and most reputable sources you can.

The only other important consideration is that sources of comparable reputability might contradict. In that case the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches of the same topic exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: divide space describing the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources. And, when available, give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner.

We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail. There are numerous other success stories of articles that began life as virtual partisan screeds but were nicely cleaned up by people who concerned themselves with representing all views clearly and sympathetically.

The policy is simply that we should characterize disputes rather than engage in them. all the major participants will be able to look at the resulting text, agreeing that their views are presented sympathetically and as completely as possible (within the context of the discussion).

Neutrality dictates that there can be multiple prominent interpretations to the meaning or validity of a work, but often the contents can be objectively verified, especially in the case of modern documents.

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

Religion

NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view. This means providing not only the points of view of different groups today, but also different groups in the past. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. One important task for encyclopedias is to explain things. In the case of human beliefs and practices, explanation encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices, but an account of how such beliefs and practices came to be and took shape. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts. But Wikipedia articles on history and religion also draw from modern archaeological, historical and scientific sources.

Many adherents of a religion will object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which is often from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.)

Giving "equal validity" But wait. I find the optimism about science vs. pseudo-science to be baseless. History has shown that pseudo-science can beat out facts, as those who rely on pseudo-science use lies, slander, innuendo and numerical majorities of followers to force their views on anyone they can. If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred, the result is that it will (inadvertently) legitimize and help promote that which only can be termed evil. Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them qua encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth. See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue. Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.

There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased.

Avoiding constant disputes

How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues? The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides.

Making necessary assumptions What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?

No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also philosophy, history, physics, etc.

Some brief, unobtrusive pointer might be apropos, however. E.g., in an article about the evolutionary development of horses, we might have one brief sentence to the effect that some creationists do not believe that horses (or any other animals) underwent any evolution, and point the reader to the relevant article. If there is much specific argument over some particular point, it might be placed on a special page of its own.

It's important to note that this level of objectivity is rather new to most people, and disputes over the proper terms may simply depend on the balance of points of view.

Consensus edits

Gio, Balinda, etc.: Here's a suggestion which could save you from revert violations and watching your edits be reverted by myself or by others. Please note that a consensus means not a "work in progress" (which really defines all of Wikipedia), but an agreement by both/all sides regarding a change. So, before making an edit, please go over it here, on the talk page, to see what "the other side" thinks of the proposal. Perhaps we can tweak the language and come up with a version everyone can live with...then we can add it and it truly would be consensual. Many of your edits/reverts were made with an edit summary claiming "consensus" where none existed. We can avoid this in the future if you discuss things here first and gain a clear consensus before making such obviously problematic changes. This is just a suggestion. Thanks...KHM03 18:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I promose to re-include the suppressed information that several of us editors worked out per StormRiders compromised solution, but which was still suppressed. A case has not been made why all this work of many editors is to be reverted. I understand that not everyone agreed on the other side but Storm Rider was on the other side and he agreed,he proposed the comproise to include both the secular view and the Christian view. From what I see of the responses people agreed with this. Those who disagree please state the objections. I restored the sections. MikaM 22:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or nor Mika I really think you have some interesting stuff but this is not the place for it. There isn't the room to fully explain it so it looks inaccurate as it differs so vastly from what people thought they knew about the history of Christianity. That doesn't make the established view right or wrong but we must accept that this IS minority stuff. We should be having this debate on the Early Christianity page. When things have calmed down I will make sure the link is added to this section - I've seen agreement for that.

I've had disagreements on this page but you will not be taken seriously by anyone if you carry on like this - you'll just get banned. That's not a threat (I'm not an admin - just a new user like you) but the way things are we can't make any progress. There are other edits that need doing such as adding the Elaine Pagels link but it's pointless at the moment. You just have to accept that as you are new in you need to find the right place for your information with the right links for it to be found by those interested. This is a dynamic project - I have stuff I'd like to add but I'm not sure where it fits in best so I'm spending my time doing a lot of reading and learning. Believe me I've had STR1977, AnnH and KHM03 all at me at once so I know how you feel. No disrespect to them but because they know each other well in the Wiki world it can be quite scary for new comers when you do something they don't like. The reality of Wiki is that you have self selecting editors so anyone working on this page is bound to have strong views. Look upon this as a long term thing - you don't need to get everything you want in right now. But please stop reverting to a contentious version as we're getting nowhere. SOPHIA 23:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Sophia, if we scared you, which never was our attention. But I know how you feel and can positively state that no offense is taken (and I think I can speak for the others on this). I also appreciate your attempts of calming down tension despite our own differences. Goodnight, Str1977 00:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining this to me Sophia and your advise. I see where you are coming from and I started to speak up here because I thought Giovanni was not being treated fairly. I read on Giovanni's talk page where they were accusing him of bigotry, being uncivil, and other nasty things all over wikipeadia. No suprise then that now he is blocked (or banned?) and so is Belinda, and probably others who disagreed too much. I thought this place was about what you could prove, about making the arguments, which I think Giovanni did. I see I was mistaken. I don't plan to revert again but I'm sure its probably already too late for me too. I'm sure I've already been target for elimination. Sadly, might still makes right. If all other places of Wikipeadia are equally governed as badly as they are here, then I'm not sure I want to be a part of it anymore. It's a loss to wikipedia to lose good contributors, and I hope they do something about the unfairness. MikaM 03:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Mika, our two fellow editors have not been banned but blocked for a period time, as I understand, for an overdose of reverting. It takes much more to be "eliminated". The "accusations" against giovanni were directed at several specific posts he made.

Giovanni hasn't proven that his inclusions are either fact (which he did claim in he beginning) or, in the version he posted, significant minority views.

It certainly is about arguments and might doesn't make right - it is exactly such self-potrayal and, I say it again, vilification of opposing views that poisons the well.

Str1977 09:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, if people disagree with something and you suggest something similar but slightly modified as a compromise, wait to see if it is accepted. And, since you're both so grossly in violation of the 3RR rule, it would be better if you didn't insert your suggested compromise yourself. What you've been doing is making a case on the talk page, and then posting your version (which people disagree with) with an edit summary of "case made on talk page", or in cases where people made their objections, you posted a slightly modified version, with an edit summary saying that this was according to consensus on the talk page. If there really is consensus, if would be better if one of the original opponents posted the compromise version, or if you waited an appropriate amount of time for comments. Giovanni, I note you're still reverting at Early Christianity. Please note, as I told you on your talk page, that people known to revert a lot can end up getting blocked for "disruption" or "gaming the system" (i.e. making a fourth revert or partial revert after 24 hours and two minutes) even if they manage on a particular occasion to stay within the rules. AnnH ^(talk) 18:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that some of the information that some have preferred to enter needs to be put on the Early Christianity page; however, a brief statment with a reference to the appropriate article should be an acceptable alternative rather then nothing at all. As far as reverts go, except for vandalism, I see too many on both sides of the issue and there are no angels. We have gotten much too liberal in what we revert; often it seems to be more out of laziness. I would prefer to see no reverts, except for vandalism, from anyone at this time. If it is something you disagree with, edit by adding a corresponding point with references. I know that this adds a lot of work for everyone, but it ensures that no editor feels like MikaM and Sophia above. Their point is well taken; when you have several editors "defending" their turf as aggressively as this page has been, newcomers can feel very unwelcome and that is unacceptable. One caveat to my advice is that controversial edits should be discussed first and other/all edits need to be referenced. Compromise is difficult and demands a lot of each participant; I am not sure we are there yet, but I like the direction we are taking. It will be much better when Gio and others return. Then we will see if real progress has been made. Storm Rider 06:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, looks like I'm back (for now). I've been a bad boy and had to be punished. hehe Thanks, Ann. :) I agree with Storm Rider and feel that most of us here do have a general consensus already that my point of view while it may be a minority one is not extreme or fringe, which would justify supression. The fact that I can easily point to prominent scholars even within the field of reglious studies departments who argue this, proves its a at the very least a significant minority view. This is all the more the case given the those who argue otherwise have only asserted it but have not backed up their claims with any references, much less purported refutations of these views. Again, I think most of us here agree that its a signifant minority view. The question now, then, is how much and in what way do we incorporate it in this article within the section on history and origins? I'm willing to compromise (as I always have), and make it short, with a link to Early Christianity where is should be allowed to have a more promient role (its being suppressed there too--even more so where it was mostly being reverted back to a stub). In anycase I'm confident that we editors all being reasonable intelligent people can come to a sensible agreement.Giovanni33 03:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

One comment I do want to suggest for a change, and which I've never been happy with in the orthodox version is the statment "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially the Gnostics (who believed that salvation came through secret knowledge),..." To me this sounds too POV, as if we are speaking from the point of view of the Chruch, who had to "deal with internal heresies." Well they are only heresies from the POV of the Church. Man of the groupd that came to be labled heresies was a matter of sometimes just one vote. To the Gnostic Christians, the other side was the false belief, and they were the true Christians. By calling the Gnostics heresies that had to be dealt "dealt" with by the Chruch takes one POV and makes it seem like this other branch in early Christianty were a problem to be dealth with. This POV language can be corrected to something like "which the Chruch at such and such time, declared them to be "heresies," but Gnostic Christians, like others groups in the Christian movment, also considered themselves to be the one and true Christianity." I hope my objections make sense. Other issues in general that I dont like are when things are spoken of in static terms, instead of historical, dyanamic, and other terms that connote emergence, and lack of finality. So instea of just starting out, I prefer emerge. Its more historical as it suggests coming out of what was before, insteas of just dropping from the sky in a vacuume. There are other examples in the text prefered by the other side as contrasted with my version. I just thought to explain my objections on this point. Giovanni33 03:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Giovanni. I'm new too and wondered about the changes I kept seeing when I was browsing this Wiki article based on a search I did. I was very happy to see the information about early Christian influences presented in the way you have argued for. The reason why I became interested in participating was because I was disappointed that at other times this information was no longer available. I see now why. I hope that my own experience and help for others to realize that it would be a good thing to include. It does not confuse people (that much), and confusion is not always a bad thing. All learning first begins with confusion. It only makes for a better education to be exposed to these forerunners to modern Christianity, which so many people are rather ignorant of. I made my first edit, a very humble one based on your suggestions above, and ones I know keep the article accurate. I hope they can restore to the version I saw before that had all the links included to the other mystery cults. I do not now how to find that version or how to restore it. I am still learning. Thank you, Richard. 198.144.207.115 06:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Another section I'd like to hash out is the one about characterizing the resulting state sponsored Christian orthodoxy, as one that emphasised "blind faith, etc." I think its important because in my view it played a prime role in bringing about the Dark Ages, one of the worst periods of human history from an intellectual point of view. I knew this would be probably incite provocation so I included it not as a fact per se but used the voice of three scholars who said this to represent this point of view, the view itself a statment of fact. I know Str1977 dismissed this as false, a legend from the Enlightenment (a saner period in history), and said it can never stand, etc. Well, to supress it I'd like to see support for your claim that refutes this from other scholars, and show that this view is fringe and discredited. I happen to think its a signifiant point of view, which therefore should be fairly chracterized and represented, along with the other point of view, that disagrees. This would make it NPOV. What say all ye fellow editors on both isles of the fence? Thanks. Giovanni33 03:42, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni, I concur with you to a degree on appearing as if WIKI is taking the point of view of orthodox Christianity. My counsel would be to refer not to the "church", but to the historic Chrisitian church or orthodox church. In doing so we are not taking sides, but rather we are identifying the source of the belief. Please remember to continue to discuss those edits that you know will be most controversial here first. Always reference your edits in the article when you feel it might be raise some eyebrows. I have encourged all simply to stop reverting edits unless the edit is vandalism. We still have too many reverts going on. The objective is edit other edits rather than do wholesale reverts. It does create a lot of work for each editor, but right now I think we need to demonstrate that everyone with expertise is welcome.

The blind faith conversation is interesting...I am not aware of another type of faith; it is always blind. Couching it as blind faith is POV because of its negative connotation. A definition of faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; if you have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true. The attack on science led by the historic church was motivated by a number of things, not simply faith. Storm Rider 08:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Strom Rider, I agree to abide by your suggestion and agree with you that it would make things better. So, I will not revert, again, unless it obvious vandalism.

I look at the contested passage again, and it doesnt say blind faith at all. I'm not sure why I thought it did, but I think it was Str who used that term. Anyway, here it the text on the idea to review:

According to American religious scholar Kaufmann Kohler, the resulting orthodoxy "emphasised faith, produced a thinking that deprecated learning, as was shown by Draper ("History of the Conflict between Science and Religion") and by White ("History of the Warfare of Science with Theology"), a reliance on the miraculous and supernatural, under the old pagan forms of belief. In the name of the Christian faith reason and research were condemned, Greek philosophy and literature were exterminated, and free thinking was suppressed."

This is clearly a POV but that’s ok because it’s stated as a fact according to these authorities, scholars in the field--their point of view is being reported. The question is if it represents a significant pov in how it characterizes 4th century orthodox Christianity. I'll do some research in the question just to make sure but I believe it is a very common view. The other thing is that these authors make statments of fact. Are the alleged statments of fact here as reported accurate,i.e. not that they are diputed by widley debunked and discredited by all current POV's? Again, I'll research it just to make sure. Maybe there is a better scholar(s) that can be chosesn if it is a legitimate pov, anyway.

Now, if this is a real, legitimate POV, and its presented, we need to find out if its refuted by the orthodox Christian point of view; then we need to find the mainstream Christian orthodox point, a good spokes person to quote in this regard, i.e, of view regarding how they characterize themselves about their attitude towards and what they say about this critical view as espoused above.Giovanni33 08:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the "blind faith" quote was way over the line in terms of POV; can another quote be found (by a reputable authority on Christian history, of course) which communicates that thought in a less POV manner? Also: does the mystery religion article, which we should provide a link to, provide links to the various mystery religions you had wanted to list? KHM03 12:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of the following are missing, from the article on mystery cults. Im not sure why Dionysus is missing and probably can be added there but other early Christan forerunners are not mystery cults so they are not listed there. Gnosticism, the Nasseni, Essenes,Therapeutae, Dionysus, various mystery cults, Mithraism and Osiris.

I always thought that the Dionysian rites were the mystery cult "par excellence". KHM03 19:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Yup, the Mystery Cults article could use some work.69.106.226.3 21:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

About the proposed section above, even though its a POV, I think its an accurate one. If someone disagrees with me please cite a reference that argues such. Otherwise, I agree that we should include this critism in its most powerful, direct way (pov), and also characterize the mainstream view/response to the critics, even if its only their rationale. I think its important that this criticism be included becaues the intolerant dogmatic nature of the resulting orthoxy of the Church had profound effect on the vigor of the persecution against intellectual freedom advocated by the Church and carried out with the backing of the State. I disagree earlier that it was simply done in the name of the Church--their intolerant outlook sanctioned it and pushed it. Just take a look at some of the mainstream Church fathers, such as Thomas Aquinas, for example. He he held that heretics "deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death", and thus that heresy should be punished by death (ST II:II 11:3), He also maintained the intellectual inferiority of women and their subjection to men on that account (ST I:92:1), which is one reason why he opposed the ordination of women (ST Supp. 39:1); He also held that "a parent can lawfully strike his child, and a master his slave that instruction may be enforced by correction". (ST II:II 65:2) What we see is a very reactionary institution that was intolerant of anyone who deviated from their dogma and advocated such such people be murdered, not to mention justification for other brutal and opppressive practices like slavery.MikaM 03:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

What do people think of this book as a reference, A World History of Christianity

by Adrian Hastings (Editor) [1] Here one can find a through review of this book, in this Journal of Theology:[2] Even though this book is a rather symphathetic look at Christian history, I note they also make the point: "Hastings notes that after the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the new Christian Church became increasingly intolerant of dissent such as that of the Manicheans and Arians and even tolerated random acts of violence against Jewish synagogues."

About the above passage , Prof. A.D. White's "History of the Warfare of Science with Theology" (3 vols.), as well as prof. Draper, and Kohler, are all authoritative in their subject matters and I say we should use them as perfect representatives for the the view, characterization of the orthox Christian stance against intellectual freedoms. MikaM 05:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mika, it is one thing to state what happened in history, but it is another to interpret that history. For example, above you state what Thomas may have taught, but then you go on to state that it was a "very reactionary institution that was intolerant of anyone who deviated from their dogma and advocated such people be murdered, not to mention justification for other brutal and opppressive practices like slavery." I would call this type of history reconstructionist...it is looking at history through the perspective of today's social morays. You open a can of worms that you don't address: what was happening in other societies? Was slavery practiced elsewhere? How did other people raise their children? How were minority religions treated elsewhere in the world? It is so POV that it is unjustified and really seems more like grinding your axe, rather than improving the article. I suggest if you want to cite the thoughts of early historic church fathers (it would be best to handle in their respective articles), but don't attempt to interpret them or spin them to meet your POV; just simply state what happened in history. Does this make sense? Storm Rider 08:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Storm Rider. Aside from that, this section is meant to give a brief overview in an article which discusses many aspects of Christianity, not just history. There are articles such as Early Christianity, History of Christianity, and Criticisms of Christianity which deal with these problems more precisely. KHM03 11:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Storm Rider. Aside from that, this section is meant to give a brief overview in an article which discusses many aspects of Christianity, not just history. There are articles such as Early Christianity, History of Christianity, and Criticisms of Christianity which deal with these problems more precisely. KHM03 11:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I dont think Mika was suggesting to include her views and her text as part of the article, only to support inclusion of my brief passage about the fact that the brand of Christian orthodoxy was distinguisable for certain attributes; these attributes were widely noted and had signifiant ramifications. I agree with others that should anything else specifically be introduced such as the morals views of the Church fathers that is has to be 1. historically contextualized, not contrasted with todays moral compass, and 2. that in anycase this all goes beyond the summary of this article and is best left for the other articles mentioned by KHMO3. Still, my passage or some passage like the one quoted above, is appropriate for this article. That passage, was: "... after the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the new Christian Church became increasingly intolerant of dissent such as that of the Manicheans and Arians and even tolerated random acts of violence against Jewish synagogues." However, I like my passage because its states the case in better, clearer terms with some specifics, and uses three well known scholars and cites their work in doing so. Giovanni33 11:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I added that passage as a comproise, instead of the White passage. BelindaGong 08:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Belinda, if you are refering to this edit, I can only say that the substance of this passage is already covered a few lines beneath and in the persecution section. Also, it is unclear where the quote "suppress all rival religions, order the closing of the temples, and impose fines, confiscation, imprisonment or death upon any who cling to the older Pagan religions." is quoted from - the context suggests it is a quote from the decrees but that's incorrect. The wording is also very fuzzy (what is "upon any who cling" supposed to mean? - the decrees supressed the pagan cults - nothing less and nothing more) or down-right wrong ("all rival religions" would include Judaism, which wasn't affected at all). Str1977 09:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I looked it up, the quote comes from this source: Joseph McCabe, "A Rationalist Encyclopaedia: A book of reference on religion, philosophy, ethics and science," Gryphon Books (1971). Excerpts appear at: http://www.christianism.com/articles/18.html

I think it belongs in the history section for context since it characterizes the nature of the established state Christian orthodoxy. I think this is a compromise over bring the other quote by the Jewish scholar and White. 64.121.40.153 21:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

This isn't neutral?

How is this article not neutral? All I see is a fair and balanced opinion of Christianity. Was one of your retarded sysops molested by a priest or something? Even if they were, that guy in no way represents the core beliefs or values of the religion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mexican Pirate (talk • contribs)

Well, most of the information presented under the article: Christianity has no basis. So why bother correcting it when it's all untrue and deceptive?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.128.11 (talk • contribs)

The claim of Christianity being monotheistic is debatable. Existence of only one God in the pantheon qualifies for montheism, and it works for Christianity (or Islam, for that matter) that the definition of 'God' is a convenient one.

Christians may call only one entity as God, but there is no denying the existence of other super-human entities, viz., Satan, Holy Ghost, angels, archangels, seraphs, cherubs and the like. While Christians tend to superimpose the title God to any such superhuman entity in other faiths, say, Hinduism or Shintoism, there is a marked reluctance to refer to the above-mentioned super-human entities as gods, or subordinate gods.

The Christian/Muslim definition of 'God' is more a convenient one to project monotheism that a truthful one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudar (talk • contribs)

Wait a minute. That's what it's all about? The fact that Christians worship one God, but believe in many superior beings? That qualifies for marking the article as not having a neutral POV? Well, I can answer that for you. There are other superior beings, but only one almighty God. God created the angels and such, as well as Satan (who, like all demons, started off as an angel). As for the Holy Ghost, that's another name for God. The Holy Trinity comes from God's ability to be omnipresent. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same God coming to you in different forms. -Mexican Pirate 04:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC) ř

Why would God come to us in different forms?? This whole idea is obselete.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.128.11 (talk • contribs)

The Trinity concept is generally hard to comprehend at first. I don't know if "coming in different forms" is how I would explain it, but there is this: when speaking with the Irish on the subject St. Patrick (according to legend) spotted a three-leaf clover between his toes, plucked it, and used the analogy that the Trinity is like the three leaves of the clover. Each leaf is different and unique, but it's all one clover.

Identical triplets that are in "continuous thought communication" may be an appropriate analogy. ^rossnixon 01:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The Trinity concept is rather too obsolete, let alone hard to "comprehend". So a man, spots a "three-leaf" clover between his toes, and uses its analogy to represent the so-called Trinity. Now think: Could this get any more arbitrary? I do not think so. Suppose the man came across a "X-leaf" clover, where X is any positive integer. So would that have made it the "X-inity"??... In conclusion, there is no doubt that this concept is nothing but a made up nonsense from someone's imagination.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.128.11 (talk • contribs)

Your brain has been mutated. Maybe it needs surgery. Scorpionman 00:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing 'obsolete' about the idea. See the Trinity article for a more complete discussion of this topic. Wesley 17:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You're entitled to hold whatever opinion you have about Christianity, but Wikipedia is not the place to express it. The belief in God "coming to us in different forms", whether you subscribe to it or not, is core to Christianity, and therefore should stay in the article. There's nothing biassed about including that element of Christianity. Waggers 17:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. The discussed comment didn't seem to be really progressive or helpful. - ElAmericano | talk 18:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

What do we need to do at this point to get the warning removed? KHM03 20:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that we set a time limit. We who has any objections may speak now, or very well hold his peace. Str1977 15:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Helpful archiving?

It seems to me that someone (who has been involved in this talk page for a while) might archive the 'closed' discussions and summarize them so that those of us new to the article know what's already been discussed. I suppose it's easier said than done. - ElAmericano | talk 18:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I certainly do not have neither the time nor the energy to archive this nonsense [[130.113.128.11]]

Now you look here. If you don't have either the "time nor the energy to archive this nonsense" then perhaps you'd better not even visit this discussion page. If you hate Christianity that much, then heck, don't even go to the article! But I don't want to read any more of your rantings or angry, unbacked comments. This page is for discussing changes to the article, not to give your silly opinions about "this nonsense". Unless you have something useful to say, and I do mean useful, then quit coming to this page. Scorpionman 01:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Do not feed the trolls. SOPHIA 08:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Can I suggest that we archive the discussion from | upwards? The articles above that section, which seemed to have been very active around Jan 23-24, seems to have wrapped up around end-January. In contrast, the subsequent section | has some comments in Feb, so we can probably leave that for further discussions. --Joseph Gan 08:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Subtle Vandalism

Has anyone else noticed a small number of contributers indulging in behaviour that at best reflects an extreme devotion to a particular system of belief and at worst a bizarre form of vandalism.

For example no one prepared to edit a sentence on the Nicene creed can really be ignorant of the filioque, yet a certain editor who, as anyone can see from his earlier edits clearly has an agenda, has reinserted text which states falsely that the Western Churches use a version of the Nicene Creed dating from 431. I notice this particular editor who removed it claims some expertise in the field!

I will restore the earlier factuallly correct version, and perhaps the editor in question would be kind enough to provide a citation that he regards as acceptable - he can choose pretty mucgh any authority on the subject he likes. 81.251.45.151 11:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)Vandalwatcher

If you're referring to my interest in exactitude and veracity, then thank you. If you refer to something else, please review WP:CIV and WP:AGF. Your edit didn't mention the filioque clause and was extremely misleading, implying something about the Church in the West that is inaccurate. If you are going to make the claim that the "Western version" of the Creed dates from the ninth century, you're going to have to give some context. Otherwise, it's unsourced and misleading and won't last long. Thanks...KHM03 12:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I've learned something today. From the little reading I have just done it does seem like this is a very important distiction as the filioque is still a distinction between eastern and western christianity to this day. It does need referencing however as it does raise questions that the interested reader will want to follow up. Since it is such a decisive split it doesn't seem a bit POV to assume the western view takes precedence and only deserves a mention. SOPHIA 12:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The filioque is a distinction between East and West, between RC and Eastern Orthodox. And this merits inclusion into the article.

However, it should be done accurately. The filioque first appears in Spain, based on Latin translations of the Nicene creed or of patristic texts. It was adopted by the Frankish Church under Charlemagne and it was adopted by the Roman Church after the year 1000, under pressure from Emperor Henry II the Saint. Str1977 12:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I have reworded it so as to include a link to the Filioque.

Another thing: 81.. included: "adopted as the universal creed of Orthodox Christendom not as is widely assumed by the Council of Nicea but by the Council of Ephesus in 431" but this is misleading:

The original Nicene creed was adopted in 325 at the council of Nicaea. It was supplemented (re the Holy Spirit) in 381 at the council of Constantinople. It this "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed" that we are generally referring to when saying "Nicene Creed" (as the NCC is hard to utter). At the next council, Ephesus in 431, the normal thing would have been to supplement the NCC in regard to the Theotokos, but instead the fathers decided to affirm this separetely and to proclaim that the NCC should remain unchanged. Because of this move, the NCC wasn't supplemented in 451 at Chalcedon or on any other council and has remained The Creed until this day. Further doctrinal issues are defined not within the creed but in separate documents.

So yes, the NC was adopted as the universal, definite creed at Ephesus, but it was drawn up at Nicea and Constantinople. Str1977 13:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

interesting and characteristicly ingenious arguments, but the present text appears to deliberately fudge a number of key points: eg that the Nicene creed was a rather late addition to an existing body of contradictory creeds, that the eastern and western churches versions differ in important respects, and that the western form is very late and is known to contain an interpolation.

also, I have seen no evidence that the overwhelming majory of Christians subscibe to the Nicene Creed - and perhaps anyone who would like to provide some evidence should be specific as which of the three versions of the "Nicene Creed" is being referred to.

It would be a refreshing break from custom if the clique could make some positive suggestions free of their very obvious PoV rather than simply revert these changes

86.206.110.1 11:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Vandalwatcher

86..., thanks for the name calling. It always helps a contructive argument.

The Nicene Creed was not "a rather late addition to an existing body of contradictory creeds" - it was adopted in 325 and supplemented in 381 and from that point onwards remained unchanged. It was the 381 council that confirmed the NC after the continuing Arian dispute sponsored by the Emperors Constantius II and Valens, and clarified a few points left open in Nicaea. You are right that there were creeds that contradicted Nicaea and each other but they were all issued during the Arian dispute and never actually adopted by the Church. After 381 there are only the Nicene(-Const..) Creed and the Apostle's Creed (and earlier creed from Rome) and they don't contradict each other. The only difference remaining is the Filioque and it mainly a difference in wording. And the text now addresses this dispute.

As for the statement that the "overwhelming majory of Christians subscibe to the Nicene Creed". We have the RCC, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Old Oriental Churches, the Lutheran Churches, the Anglican Churches, the "Old Catholic" Churches (and possibly others I have forgotten) adhering to the NC as such, and the great majority of Protestants adhering to the substance and content of the creed. That leaves us with Mormons, JWs, various Adventists, various "Arian" groups and Liberals within the mentioned denominations. Str1977 13:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Having disagreed with these editors and raised the same concerns over their POV myself I can see what you are trying to say. However after much thought I realised that I was no less neutral myself as in that case my arguments were coming from a humanist rather than deist slant (I didn't even realise I had a humanist POV until that point). The problem with trying to summarise a subject is that you will always write things as they seem to you - therefore emphasising the details that seem the most important in your view. POV concerns get flung around continuously in wikipedia, very occasionaly justifiably, but usually all they do is cause bad feeling.

I think the info you have brought up is very interesting, the links are very worthwhile and I think add valuable insight to other parts of the article such as the great schism. They need to be factually correct however and I have read conflicting info elsewhere on the web about this so it would be real nice if we could stick to the facts and references and try to work out how to present them in a balanced but brief way in the article as this is a summary section. SOPHIA 12:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Sophia, thanks for your measured words. However, the valid concerns of 86... have already been addressed in the text. The Filoque play a part in the Great Schism - great on the surface, small in substance - but this is not the article to provide an in-depth study of the Schism. Both Filioque and the Schism have wikilinks to the respective articles. Str1977 13:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I am no expert in this as I didn't even know about it until it was brought up here so I cannot add anything to the debate on how prominent this should be. Howeve with my love of linking and follow up it does seem perfectly adequate if there is a brief mention of the issues with wiki links for those who want the details. SOPHIA 14:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if Str1977 "This user strives to be fully faithful to the Church and Pope Benedict XVI." would care to explain why his church executed Greek Orthodox priests in Cyprus over a matter that he describes as "small in substance". He might also like to read Timothy Ware on the Orthodox Church to see that this is still a matter which is not considered "small in substance" outside his own Church.

Vandalwatcher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.251.36.89 (talk • contribs)

WP:DNFT --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 20:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Lord Voldemort - many thanks for this. I hadn't understood previous references to "Don't Feed The Trolls". This defines the clique running this page exactly

Trollwatcher, previously known as Vandalwatcher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.251.36.89 (talk • contribs)

Dear Vandalwatcher,

I hope you have found my user page interesting. As for the two priest, I can only say that I am very sorry for them, as I have no more information on the circumstances of their death. However, I want to explain what I meant by "small in substance": The words Filioque do not change the meaning of the creed at all, merely give a different emphasis. Western and Eastern Church agreed on this on the Second Council of Lyons (1274) and Council of Florence (1439). The origins of the schism are not matters of theology, but matters of discipline and cultural differences. Photius decided to use the Filioque as a theological cloak in his conflict with the Pope, but this issue grew out of proportion after his death. Str1977 15:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

am very sorry bu

Archiving

I have archived a lot from this talk page. I put it all into Archive 19. I have also created a link at the top of this page to Archive 20, which has not been created. Whoever archives next time can just click on that link to start that archive.

I think we should try to start new threads more frequently. The archive I have just created has 156 kilobytes, and has only six threads. Even if something is relevant to a particular thread, I think it would be better to have a new thread called "Changes part 2", or "Changes revisited". Otherwise, it's very difficult to find the right part of the page. I hope I haven't archived anything that was active. Discussion can, of course, continue on this page, perhaps even by saying something like, "As mentioned in Talk:Christianity/Archive_19#Beowulf". AnnH ^(talk) 11:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Nicene Creed

I have restored and edited a version of the opening that I think is better. My concern about the version I replaced is that it contained too much about the history of the creed. I think that level of detail would go better in Filioque, or Nicene creed, or even Early Christianity. Tom Harrison ^Talk 16:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)