Talk:Eucharist

Talk:Eucharist/Archive 1 Talk:Eucharist/Archive 2

Alleged pre-Christian origins

Just for the record - - I don't have a problem with this section. First, it makes it quite clear that these theories are "alleged" and not "fact". Second, it's at an appropriate place in the article--after we've discussed the major theological takes, liturgical practices, etc. Finally, it belongs here, and not at Transubstantiation (where it began) or on another related article, and the move to this page shows, I think, good faith on the part of the author. If there's any controversy, I say we keep it. KHM03 16:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm ambivalent about it, and about the two versions that are reverting back and forth. I just went through and fixed links in the current version. One note, though: as mentioned in the article on cannibalism, ritual cannibalism is actually much rarer than claims of ritual cannibalism. It's much more common for a religious group to be "smeared" with claims of cannibalism by its enemies, or for one to claim to practice cannibalism without actually doing so. Claims that mystery cults actually practiced cannibalism or Omophagy should be treated skeptically here, and it might be better to avoid the issue by focusing more on "the idea of feeding on the life-force of a mystical entity". --Srleffler 05:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

True, actual cannibalism is a matter of controversy, but the mythology concerning the practice certaily real. Prof. Barry Powell,Ph.D (University of California-Berkeley), professor of classics, mythology, argues that "Christian notions of eating and drinking "the flesh" and "blood" of Jesus in order for individual followers to celebrate the ratification of the new covenant and to commemorate the sacrifice of the cross and His promise of return, was influenced by the cult of Dionysus. Certainly the Dionysus myth contains a great deal of cannibalism, in its links to Ino. Dionysus was also distinct among Greek gods, as a deity commonly felt within individual followers. In a less benign example of influence on Christianity, Dionysus' followers, as well as another god, Pan, are said to have had the most influence on the modern view of Satan as animal-like and horned." This is quoted from, Classical Myth Third Edition, a standard university text. Giovanni33 08:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Are there really many scholars who hold that the first Christians (Jews and people close to the Jewish religion) invented the Eucharist in imitation of Greek or Middle-East mystery religions? Was "feeding on the life-force of a mystical entity" really part of the ritual of, for instance, the Eleusinian Mysteries? Apart from the Dionysiac rites (at least as presented with poetic licence by Euripides), was promoting the eating of raw flesh common in mystery religions? Where did the mystery religions get leaders to conquer and kill so as to "promote the ritual eating of raw flesh and organs of conquered leaders to absorb their power"? Did the Council of Trent really teach that the Eucharist "conveyed in actuality the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of cannibalism"? Lima 09:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No, no one claims that this was invented in imitation. Rather only that the idea is not original but follows, like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied. Its hard to say. But, the idea is not original or unique. And, it is commonly accepted in secular academic circles that the Chistian shape of the sacred mysteries -- while developed out of creations of Jesus and his apostles -- is strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. The reality here is that, if you go back and trace the history, you will see that this is quite frimly in the mainsteam of the historical and archeaological evidence.

The Catholic Encylopedia itself ties these non-Christian bloodly rituals. What the Christian Fathers did was invent a new language for the heathen practice of blood sacrifice. The Catholic Encyclopedia (CE) for exmaple us that the doctrine of Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, defines sacrifice as a way of attaining communion with God with a sacrificial blood offering, and goes on to associate Christian sacrifice with the various forms of blood sacrifice among pagan religions. It talks about the substition of humans to horses, for example, of drink concoction made of water and flesh which was believed to bring immortality, and ofcourse of animals like sheep, pigs and oxen, and that there is evidence that humans were once offered. The CE goes on to describe Jewish and Canaanite sacrifice. Then it boasts of its superiority because "Christianity knows but one sacrifice". Thus, Christians can continue the practice without experiencing the sight of blood.

"Christianity knows but one sacrifice, the sacrifice which was once offered by Christ in a bloody manner on the tree of the Cross. But in order to apply to individual men in sacrificial form though a constant sacrifice the merits of redemption definitively won by the sacrifice of the Cross, the Redeemer Himself instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be an unbloody continuation and representation of the bloody sacrifice of Calvary."

So, Christianity, like other religions, share these essential pagan features and functions, with the ritualized blood shedding practices of yore, adopted in a modern fashion. The doctrine of atonement is of heathen origin. It is based on the assumption that no sin can be expiated without the shedding of blood.

The American scholar Camille Paglia refers to herself as a 'disciple of the Cambridge School of Anthropology'. She writes succinctly about pagan mystery religion and Christianity. "Paganism," she states, "recognized, honored and feared nature's daemonism [i.e. its amalgam of both good and evil] and it limited sexual expression by ritual formulae. Christianity was a development of Dionysian mystery religion which paradoxically tried to suppress nature in favor of a transcendental other world." 13 Of the Greek god Dionysus, she writes: "Heir to the Great Mother of chthonian nature, he is, with Osiris, the greatest of the dying gods of mystery religion. Out of his worship came two rituals of enormous impact on western culture, tragic drama and Christian liturgy." 14

Paglia insists "that Christianity could not tolerate the pagan integration of sex, cruelty, and divinity." 15 In the passage below she explains how the worshippers of Dionysus integrated these three elements:

"The violent principle of Dionysian cult is sparagmos, which in Greek means "a rending, tearing, mangling" and secondly "a convulsion, spasm". The body of the god, or a human or animal substitute, is torn to pieces, which are eaten or scattered like seed. Omophagy, ritual eating of raw flesh, is the assimilation and internalization of godhead. Ancient mystery religion was posited on the worshipper's imitation of the god. Cannibalism was impersonation, a primitive theater. You are what you eat. The body parts of dismembered Osiris, scattered across the earth, were collected by Isis, who founded a shrine at each site. Before his arrest, Jesus tears the Passover bread for his disciples: "Take, eat: this is my body" (Mt.26:26). At every Christian service, wafers and wine are changed into Christ's body and blood, consumed by the worshipper. In Catholicism, this is not symbolic but literal. Transubstantiation is cannibalism. Dionysian sparagmos was an ecstasy of sexual excitation and superhuman strength...The scattering of sparagmos inseminated the earth. Hence swallowing the god's parts was an act of love. 16 Paglia buttresses her arguments with quotations from the Greek biographer and moralist Plutarch who lived near the time of Jesus: "Plutarch says dismemberment is a metaphor for Dionysus' metamorphoses "into winds and water, earth and stars, and into the generations of plants and animals". Dionysus, like Proteus, shifts through all forms of beings, high to low. Human, animal, plant, mineral: none has special status. All are equalized and sacralized in the continuum of natural energy...Plutarch says "riddles and fabulous tales" about Dionysus "construct destructions and disappearances, followed by returns to life and regenerations". Mystery religions offered initiates eternal life. Promise of resurrection was and is a major reason for Christianity's spread." 17 13. Camille Paglia, Sexual Personae: Art and Decadence from Nefertiti to Emily Dickinson (New York: Random House, 1991) 25.

14. Paglia 88-89.

15. Paglia 138.

16. Paglia 95.

17. Paglia 95-96. 216.104.211.5 17:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33 20:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Paglia might not be the best reference to show broad support. Her ideas in other areas have certainly been controversial and unconventional. There is some discussion of this issue at the article on Dionysus, however.--Srleffler 23:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I submit that my questions about the origin of the Eucharist have not been answered. What Giovanni33 says at length above would be pertinent if the Eucharist had first appeared in, say, the second century. But is it really believable that the very first Christians, of Jewish background, chose to institute a rite based on an "idea (that was) not original but (that) follow(ed), like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied"? It was clearly not "adopted following the same tradition", and it is highly unlikely that people of that background would have "copied" it from such a source as Giovanni33 indicates.

Talking about "getting off the relevant points of the section", is not this basic point about the time and ambience of the appearance of the Eucharistic rite decidedly relevant?

Lima 08:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You ask, "But is it really believable that the very first Christians, of Jewish background, chose to institute a rite based on an "idea (that was) not original but (that) follow(ed), like other ideas found in Christianity, from pre-Christian reglions, either adopted following the same tradition, or copied"? To answer your question, yes, althogh these connections may simply be religious archetypes.

Christianity adopted and absorbed--as it was bound to do--many world-wide doctrines found in older religious. This is true with most of the main doctrines of Christianity--namely, those of Sin and Sacrifice, the Eucharist, the Saviour, the Second Birth, and Transfiguration. They all show that they are by no means unique in for this religion, but were common to nearly all the religions of the ancient world. What we see is simply giving these older notions new fine spiritual significance, a redressing, while it often also narrowed the application and outlook of the doctrine down to a special case. The same happened with regard to other Pagan doctrine, the doctrine of transformations and metamorphoses; whereas the pagans believed in these things, as the common and possible heritage of every man, the Christians only allowed themselves to entertain the idea in the special and unique instance of the Transfiguration of Christ.

The basics of the Eucharist had a widespread celebration (under very various forms) among the pagans all over the world. By partaking of the sacramental meal, even in its wildest and crudest shapes, as in the mysteries of Dionysus, one was identified with and united to the god; in its milder and more spiritual aspects as in the Mithraic, Egyptian, Hindu and Christian cults, one passed behind the veil of maya and this ever-changing world, and entered into the region of divine peace and power.

A lot of this is just substantial amelioration of a more modern outlook with regard to these matters, but the same had begun already before the advent of Christianity and can by no means be ascribed to any miraculous influence of that religion. Abraham was prompted to slay a ram as a substitute for his son, long before the Christians were thought of; the rather savage Artemis of the old Greek rites was (according to Pausanias)1 honored by the yearly sacrifice of a perfect boy and girl, but later it was deemed sufficient to draw a knife across their throats as a symbol, with the result of spilling only a few drops of their blood, or to flog the boys (with the same result) upon her altar. Among the Khonds in old days many victims (meriahs) were sacrificed to the gods, "but in time the man was replaced by a horse, the horse by a bull, the bull by a ram, the ram by a kid, the kid by fowls, and the fowls by many flowers."[2]

[1] vii. 19, and iii. 8, 16.

[2] Primitive Folk, by Elie Reclus (Contemp. Science Series), p. 330.

In respect to these main religious ideas, and the matter underlying them (exclusive of the manner of their treatment), Christianity is of one piece with the earlier pagan creeds and is for the most part a re-statement and renewed expression of much wider and earlier doctrines.

64.121.40.153 19:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33 wrote, The doctrine of atonement is of heathen origin. It is based on the assumption that no sin can be expiated without the shedding of blood. It's true that this idea is found in many heathen religions, but it is also found in the Hebrew religion, and undergirds the whole idea and practice of offering animal sacrifices to atone for sins. This idea is firmly grounded in the Tanakh. As Christianity has always claimed the Tanakh as its basis, adopted it as the Old Testament (mainly using the Septuagint at first), and quoting it extensively in the New Testament as authoritative, it is much more straightforward to suppose that Christianity borrowed this idea from the Hebrew religion rather than surrounding mystery cults. Wesley 17:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Even if User:64.121.40.153 (non-logged-in Giovanni33? or perhaps not) were to argue more convincingly that the Eucharist originated in the conscious or unconscious wish of the very first Christians to establish a rite such as User:64.121.40.153 pictures, that would be no reason to exclude from the article a contrary point of view.

There is no need for User:64.121.40.153 to state the obvious fact that Christianity, growing at first in a Jewish and philo-Jewish ambience, considered sacred the same writings that the Jews considered sacred, believed in God and in sin and expiation by animal sacrifices.

The Letter to the Hebrews seems to have been written for Christians who were discouraged at being excluded from Jewish worship and its animal sacrifices. It was written long after the Eucharist was established, but nowhere tells its addressees: "But you have in the Eucharist, a replacement - according to Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153 - for animal and even human sacrifices."

The thesis of Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153 about the origin of the Eucharist might be believable, if it referred to something that arose in Christianity of the fourth, fifth, and sixteenth centuries and whatever century the "Theses of Bonn" (whatever they are) belong to. That would give time to absorb non-Jewish influences. But there is written evidence from the year 57 that, even that early, the Eucharist was a long-established practice.

The reenactment by the first Christians of something - whatever it was - that Jesus did and said at his last supper is far more likely to be the origin of this practice than the learned (i.e. recherché) interpretations that some "scholars" have attached to it much later. People learned or unlearned repeatedly attach meanings inspired by imagination or superstition to many things that happen even my mere accident, but the archetypes that inspire those interpretations are not the origin of the things that happen. Are we or are we not discussing origins, not interpretations?

Lima 08:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Remember, though, that the section is called "alleged", not "proven". Also, it makes clear that it is not a universal belief among historians, and it's relatively brief. Seems pretty fair to me. KHM03 12:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And to me, as long as it keeps more views than that of Giovanni33/User:64.121.40.153. Lima 13:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are content to leave it to the version worked out by Nrgdocadams, which I accept; its respects your content but does so accurately and with NPOV language. Giovanni33 01:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed this bit: (who are said to have promoted Omophagy, the ritual eating of raw flesh and organs of conquered leaders to absorb their power). I have asked several times on related Talk pages which groups in this region actually practiced this, and the only answer I recall seeing was that the various legends had cannibalistic elements in them. And incidentally, please don't assume that because I made a few edits to that paragraph, that I fully support everything else in that paragraph. All it means is that I'm tackling it in small pieces. Wesley 04:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

A great improvement. When this section began, it claimed in its title to identify the origins of the Eucharist. I altered that to "alleged origins". At last, the section withdraws its claim to discern the origins. I hope Giovanni33 will be content to leave the section free of its previous presentation of only one interpretation of the Eucharistic rite. If, instead, he insists on presenting only his own interpretation, he should move the section up to where other individual interpretations are presented and place it, most likely, immediately after "Zwinglian Reformed: no Real Presence". It need not then be written in neutral-point-of-view form. Perhaps that will please him best. Lima 10:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

"No" to that move, unless there is a non-negligible group of Christians who hold this belief. The section on Christian theology is for documenting the beliefs of groups of Christians. A scholarly theory about the origins of Christian doctrine is certainly notable and deserves inclusion in the article, but should not be placed as a subsection of "Christian theology", unless it is.--Srleffler 02:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I reverted back to the last version by Wesley. I take it that Lima is not happy with the compromised version by Nrgdoc, which was respectful to your POV but removed all the blatent POV language that your passage much too polemical. I was content with Nrgoc's version, even with the version by Wesley. But not with your latests change, which I consider pushing a POV in violation of NPOV policy, again. If we compare the verisons, we see you repeating your POV, again, unnessarily being redunant and changing the meanings to include somethting that was never a stated claim before, specifically, "proponents of the above interpretation suppose that these - and perhaps Paul himself, in spite of his very strict Jewish background - were attaching to the existing Christian rite notions connected with these cults.''

Lets look at both versions:

The compromised version:

Other scholars therefore argue that the reenactment by these very first Christians of something that Jesus did and said at his last — a unique form of Table fellowship — has precedence in the origin of the practice, rather than than the interpretations of Greco-Roman mystery religions that other writers might attach to it. By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was spreading among those who were former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

Your version:

Other scholars therefore argue that the practice must originally have arisen as a reenactment by these very first Christians of something that Jesus did and said at his last supper, what has been called "a unique form of Table fellowship". However, by the time Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians, Christianity was spreading among people who may have had contact with Greek mystery cults, and proponents of the above interpretation suppose that these - and perhaps Paul himself, in spite of his very strict Jewish background - were attaching to the existing Christian rite notions connected with these cults.

Notice that your version simply restates the same idea aleady stated earlier in the same paragraph, and is evidence of POV pushing:

Christianity thus began among people who would reject any idea of eating actual human flesh and drinking blood of any kind, who avoided pagan mystery cults, and who would completely exclude a cannibalistic interpretation of their "eating this bread and drinking this cup."

Giovanni33 17:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni, can you provide any evidence or reference for this sentence, especially the part in bold?

By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was spreading among those who were former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

Thanks for your cooperation. Str1977 18:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Given the short time span we are talking about (circa 57 AD for 1Cor, circa 80 AD for Acts), "was spreading" and "who were former adherents" is a little strong. If we keep this sentence (i.e., if it can be substantiated and referenced), I'd suggest:

By the time of the writing of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, however, Christianity was beginning to spread among those who may have been former adherents of the Greco-Roman mystery cults.

JHCC (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

JHCC's wording is fine with me.Weren't all if not most of the gentile converts to Christianity formerly lifetime Pagans?64.121.40.153 20:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be careful about drawing an equivalence between pagans (which would have included practically any non-Jewish or non-Christian) and initiates (or adherents) of mystery religions. Simply put, all mystery-religionists were pagan, but not all pagans were mystery-religionists. JHCC (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I still consider the passage without foundation and without function in the paragraph. Str1977 23:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Hence "If we keep this sentence (i.e., if it can be substantiated and referenced)..." That's still an open question, and I proposed no answer to it. JHCC (talk) 01:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, JHCC, I am asking Giovanni to substantiate and reference the passage. Otherwise it should go. 11:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

More theophagy

This is a problem:

In a spiritual sense, Christianity promoted the idea that their "unbloody mysteries" [cf. Basil the Great (c. 329-379), John Chrysostom (c. 347-407), Council of Trent (1546-1563), Theses of Bonn (1874) conveyed in actuality the purported mystical benefits of flesh-eating and blood-drinking that were proclaimed by the proponents of animal sacrifices and of cannibalism among the mystery cults. Accordingly, the Christain writers argue that Christianity presents "true" Theophagy in an "unbloody" manner.

Question: are Basil, John, the Council, and the Theses cited (A) as references of the use of the phrase "unbloody mysteries" or (B) as promoters of the idea that the Eucharist "convey[s] in actuality the purported mystical benefits [...] that were proclaimed [...] among the mystery cults"? If (A), then their inclusion here is of limited relevance. If (B), then quotes and references are necessary to demonstrate that these people actually promoted this idea. "The Christain writers" is similarly vague and in need of citation and verification. JHCC (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Basil, Chrysostom, Trent, and the Old Catholics would surely have been horrified at the suggestion that they were promoting such an idea. Lima 05:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, Basil, John, Trent, and the Old-Catholics all use terms along the lines of "unbloody mysteries" and propose that the Eucharist actually conveys the mystical benenfits of what the Mystery Cults and animal sacrifice could only approximate in bare (and some would argue, perverse) shadows. In other words, their position is that the Eucharist is true Theophagy, while the mystery cults and the animal sacrifices were only attempts (sometimes horrific attempts) at Theophagy. Nrgdocadams 11:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams

Nrgdocadams, since "Content [...] must be verifiable", could you please provide specific quotes to verify this assertion? I'm not saying that you are wrong, and I'm willing to grant the use of the term "unbloody mysteries" (which is well documented), but the further assertion needs to be substantiated (no pun intended). Specifically, where do Basil, John, Trent, & the O.C.s make this proposal? What exactly do they say? (Direct quotes would be useful here.) Do they make the specific comparison between the Eucharist and animal (and human) sacrifice? You say that "their position is that the Eucharist is true Theophagy" — however, we cannot ascribe this position to them unless they so state it themselves.

Your first statement, that they "propose that the Eucharist actually conveys the mystical benenfits of what the Mystery Cults and animal sacrifice could only approximate in bare (and some would argue, perverse) shadows" is, I think, quite accurate. However, since "theophagy" is not an ancient term (not in LSJ, originally appears in the OED as a nonce word), ascribing to ancient writers a position based on a modern scholarly term is at best shaky and at worst misleading. JHCC (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)