Talk:Massacre of Lviv professors

Participation of OUN in Massacre of Lwów professors

In the night of July 3/4, 1941, between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. several units composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers rushed into private homes of the professors of the higher academic institutions and arrested all men above 18 years of age found in their houses. ZYGMUNT ALBERT THE MURDER OF LWÓW PROFESSORS BY GERMAN AUTHORITIES IN JULY 1941

and

http://www.vesna.org.ua/txt/grytsakj/formuv/r5.html
Звичайно, це не знімає питання про участь окремих українців у воєнних злочинах проти інших національностей, зокрема проти поляків. Але й тут попри спаведливі звинувачення можна зустріти перебільшення і навіть явні видумки. У першу чергу це стосується міфів про причетність українських націоналістів до розстрілу групи польських професорів у Львові (липень 1941 р.) та про участь дивізії СС "Галичина" у придушенні Варшавського повстання. Щодо першої акції, то вона була брутальною реалізацію тези Гітлера, що на одній землі не може і не повині існуватидвох панів – німців і поляків – і тому польську інтеліґенцію належить винищити. Львівський розстріл належить до того ж ряду подій, щой розправа з краківськими професорами у листопаді 1939 р. Документальні матеріали і спогади свідків доводять видуманність тези, що вбивство львівських професоорів здійснили українці (невиясненним, однак, залишається питання, чи українські студенти були причетні до складання списку страчених, і, якщо так, то чи робили це вони з власної ініціативи а чи на вимогу ґестапо) [34] [34] Kazn profesorow lwowskich. Lipiec 1941. Studia oraz relacje i dokumenty zebrane i opracowane przez Zygmunta Alberta, Wroclaw, 1989. -- Yakudza 09:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Blanking the piece of the article is rarely a way to go (it may be correct sometimes but not usually). Add an alternative view and/or say what's wrong with this one if you think so. There is plenty of the writing that say to the contrary. Check refs in the Himka's article I posted at talk:Lviv. "There has been almost no attempt on the part of the Ukrainian diaspora to confront the issue of war criminality in a less defensive and more soul-searching manner." --Irpen 18:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I have taken this phrase out of article since she has a no relations to murder professor. This appropriately in article about OUN, Nachtigal or histories Lviv. I did not rely on on publications the Ukrainian diaspora, but on title of the polish historian Zygmunta Alberta. The Reference to this article with site http://www.lwow.home.pl/ was brought earlier, and text was written on its base in Wikipedia. The Fragment on ukrainian is also founded on article Zygmunta Alberta. His author, not representative diaspora, but liberal ukrainian historian Grytsak. --Yakudza 07:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, you made a good case to challenge the piece. I think we should place the "factual dispute" tag on the article for now and wait a bit for responces and refs that support the current version. If there is none, we'll remove the piece and the tag. I will place a tag right now. Deleting at once from such a controvercial topic is a bad idea. See Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but_don.27t_be_reckless.21 --Irpen 08:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I find it quite hard to understand Yakudza's English, but I'll try. As to the Ukrainian complicity in the crimes of summer of 1941 - there are zillions of documents on them. As to the case of this particular crime, such complicity is indeed mentioned only briefly in the article by Wacław Szybalski. However, it is mentioned in the collection of documents by Zygmunt Albert, as well as by Lanckorońska in her memoirs (both in her description of situation in Lwów itself and later in Stanisławów). The biography of Boy-Żeleński also mentions it (though briefly) and it's partially available online (in Polish). I really don't know how one can prove that there was no complicity and that the Ukrainian units were not there. Especially that it is quite well-established fact that the OUN collaborated with the Abwehr even before the war and that many Ukrainians (including the chiefs of OUN themselves) initially saw the Germans as liberators and tried to aid them any way they could. Of course, with time such tactics proved to be but a dream of independent Ukraine, but still the collaboration was quite strong, even until the end of WWII (mostly by Melnykist faction). Halibutt 09:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

First of all biting the newbies who are making a good-faith effort and especially criticising their English (as well as anyone else's) is rather rude. To the issue, I standrartized Yakudza's ref and moved it to ref list where it belongs. He brought up an academic work where the participation of Ukrainian nationalists in this particular massacre is challenged (not overall existence of collaboration). Still, a number of books that claim to the contrary warrants mention of Ukrainian participation. On the other hand, I would add a word, that these accounts are not universally agreed upon (unless, of course, we have sufficient grounds to discredit the text by Hrytsak). --Irpen 17:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You got me wrong, I was not biting a newbie and it was not my intention to critisize his English. I was merely explaining myself in case I got some of his comments wrong. As to the rest of your comment - totally agreed. Halibutt 00:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

"Роланд" і "Нахтіґаль", складених з членів ОУН-б (Hrytsak). Xx236 14:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of the Jewish inhabitants of the city were shot on the spot

Not "most". Xx236 14:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers

Rather not SS. Xx236 14:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Wolisch or Walisch?

Xx236 14:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of the online sources cite his name as Wolisch. The pre-war business registry suggests that he might've been either Chaim Wolisch who owned a fabric store at Wałowa 2 street or Adolf Wolisch who had a clothing store at Skarbkowska 5. Check for instance [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]...

On the other hand this source states that his name was Walisch and that he owned the "Beier i Ska" shop, not listed in the 1929 registry. Halibutt 15:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian point of view

Government commission for researching OUN-UPA's activity was created in Ukraine. Official report of Ukrainian historians mentions the case: it is said that there was an investigation about the massacre in Hamburg in 1966 and it was proved that brigadenfuhrer Schoengart had been responsible for the crime.

Moreover, this is confirmed by Zygmunt Albert in his article "Murder of Lwow professors" (the external link):

"Many Poles still think that the professors were massacred by the Ukrainians. If this were so, the Hamburg prosecutor would not have admitted after the war that it was done by his fellow countrymen - the Germans. When Helena Krukowska lodged a complaint at the Ludwigsburg Court concerning the murder of her husband Wlodzimierz and other professors, Prosecutor Below replied that those guilty of the murder were: Himmler, Frank, Schöngarth, SS-Standartenführer Heim and probably SS-Hauptscharführer Horst Waldenburger, but they were no longer alive and the remaining guilty individuals were still being sought. The prosecutor admitted that only the firing squad consisted of Ukrainians dressed in SS uniforms".

Hans Krüger

In Polish Wikipedia there are two persons with this surname and it seems, that the link in the article points to the wrong man. (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kr%C3%BCger) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.20.3.6 (talk) 22:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Right. It seems there are two separate people. I made a Hans_Krüger disambiguation page to distinguish between the politician and the soldier. Now someone needs to write a page for Hans_Krüger (soldier). Dark Formal (talk) 11:46, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

image

The image should not be in this article. Please stop adding it. Thanks, Ostap 19:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

And the reason why it shouldn't be is? Loosmark (talk) 19:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Should I go add images of graves with "death to Jews" in Polish written on them in The Holocaust in Poland article? If you have an image of the memorial please add it, not one that has been vandalized by some unknown fanatic. Ostap 20:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is wikipedia's policy in regards to images of vandalised memorials and there is also a difference between a grave and a memorial. In Poland the "unknown fanatics" who vandalise important memorials tend to get caught and become known. Loosmark (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark, you know how much I respect you and your opinions but I have to side with Ostap here, especially after reading his second comment. Some stupid vandals did that and it is not worth having this on this page. There are also no relations to what the German Nazis did then and to the idiots who vandalized the plaque with the graffiti. At least this is my opinion about it. Thanks guys.--Jacurek (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

<--One reason to not include the image is just to err on the side of caution. The inscription was made by "unknown vandals", and who knows, maybe it was even a provocation made by outside parties? I think that Ostap is also right - we don't know who vandalized the image and it could've very well been some wacko extremist, not representative of anything in particular except their own idiocy. Poland's has crazy extremists too, as does every country in the world.radek (talk) 01:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I've my doubts that it was just a random extremist vandal but OK i won't insist on that image. Maybe somebody will upload a non vandalized image of the memorial later. Loosmark (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest ensuring that the image has a proper description / categories on Commons. Perhaps there is a category that can be linked somehow? Unless there is a need to illustrate notable modern vandalism of the relevant monument(s), there is probably no pressing need to have the image here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Why??? What was the reasoning (whatever it was)???

This is a strange article. It talks about all the killing, but doesn't even attempt to go into the reason (whatever it may have been) of WHY the killings occurred. The article is useless without this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.184.172 (talk) 07:31, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Cooperation with Soviets

Other than anti-Soviet feelings, I'm not sure what is so outrageous about the referenced phrase "Ukrainian scholar I.K Patrylyak states that out of approximately 160 Polish professors living in Lviv in June 1941, the professors chosen for execution were specifically those who actively cooperated with the Soviet regime between 1940-1941, such as members of Soviet working groups, members of Soviet councils, or members of a delegation that met with Stalin and discussed the possible formation of a pro-Soviet Polish government." OUN were murdering Ukrainians and their families who cooperated with the Soviets, too. Cooperation doesn't necessarily mean working for the NKVD or being a fanatic communist (although the victim Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński might sort of qualify), it also means being part of Soviet councils - which in my opinion probably means, if the Soviets sponsored a faculty senate in the reorganized university, being a delegate in it would be considered cooperation with the Soviet regime. UPA were killing people in villages and their families, who happened to be mayors of villages, memebers of village soviets or councils, etc. under Soviet rule. Patrilyak's statement seems to fit the pattern; it cetainly doesn't seem strange that the OUN would give the Germans a list of people to kill based on cooperation with the Soviet authorities/administration.Faustian (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Adding to my comment - I think some of the people trying to remove this information do so because they do not want all the victims to be portrayed as Communists if they were not. This is a legitimate concern and I am open to any wording that would make this clear and the description more accurate.Faustian (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it does a not "clarify" a thing. You are not trying to portray the murdered professor as Communists, you are trying to do is something much more worse. You tried to portray the professors murdered by the Nazis as people who betrayed their own country and became collaborationist. J.kunikowski (talk) 12:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I reported what a respected source said. It is entirely your choice to view anybody who worked for a Soviet-sponsored organization as a "collaborationist."Faustian (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

My choice of view!? Listen dude stop f*cking with me. You inserted into the article the "facts" that they were "collaborating actively with the Soviet authorities" and that they "met with Stalin to form a pro-Soviet Polish government". YOU accused them of highest possible collaborationist attitude. The victims of the Nazi massacre. Remove that nonsense out of the article. J.kunikowski (talk) 12:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Reporting the content of a cited text does not amount to making accusations or portraying people in one light or another. If that is what is said in the text, it is valid for inclusion. If you have reliable source which takes a different point of view, that would also be valid for inclusion. And curb your language please. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I inserted a referenced fact that they were chosen for their cooperation with the Soviet system. The source states "Важливим є також той факт, що розстріляні у Львові професори належали до групи польської інте-лігенції, яка протягом 1940–1941 рр. активно співпрацювала з радянським режимом. Вони були членами радянських творчих спілок, депутатами рад, делегатами польської громадськості Львова, що у вересні 1940 р. відвідували Сталіна і вели з ним переговори про можливість створення прорадянського польського уряду4 (на противагу еміграційному урядові в Лондоні). Тому вбиті у Львові польські професори цілком могли трактуватися оунівцями, як "приклонники большевицько-московського імперіалізму". Адже зі 160 професорів-поляків, які мешкали у Львові на червень 1941 р., для знищення вибрали лише тих, хто "засвітився" на співпраці зі сталінським режимом. " Translation: Important is the fact that the professors who were shot in Lviv belonged to the group of the Polish intelligentsia, who between 1940 and 1941 actively worked with the Soviet regime. They were members of Soviet working groups, members of Soviet councils, or delegates from Lviv's Polish community who in August 1940 visited Stalin and conducted talks on the possibility of creating a pro-Soviet Polish government in oppostion to the government-in-exile in London. Therefore, the murdered professors could be intereprested by the OUN as supporters of the 'Bolshevik-Muscovite imperialism.' So, out of the 160 Polish professors who lived in Lviv in June 1941, only those who stood out for their cooperation with the Stsalinist regime were chosen for destruction." This is the link: http://history.org.ua/LiberUA/Book/Patr/12.pdf]. The book is K Patrylyak. (2004). Military activities of the OUN (B) in the years 1940-1942. Kiev, Ukraine: Shevchenko University \ Institute of History of Ukraine National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. You may choose to believe or not believe certain facts, but on wikipedia we just report them.Faustian (talk) 13:08, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Just somebody makes some claim it does not mean is it fact. There are no "facts" here other than you trying to present a claim in a pdf as a fact. J.kunikowski (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Jo0Doe's concerns

• I think someone tried to remove the misquoted scholar text - so a full text of Patrilyak suggest [6] - pages 221-223

so Patrilyak text - In May 1941 at a meeting in Krakow the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program “Struggle and action for OUN during the war” (Ukrainian: ”Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни») which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR. Section G of that document –“Orders for first days of the state living organization” Ukrainian: “Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя» outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1941 In subsection of “Policy Minority” ordered: “Moskali, Poles, Jews are hostile for us ” and thus them must be “… exterminated in fight, especially those who which would resist the regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may not be allowed into positions of power" … "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated"… Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jews' assimilation is not possible. and Patrilyak suggest such instruction as orders to extermination of ethnical minorities - Poles and Jews - becouse they Poles and Jews. Also he add information which actually added to article - in addition to be a Poles they also interract with Soviet Authorities. And at page 324 He conclude that the personnel of the Nachtigall_Battalion have all reason to murder them - becouse they are 1) Poles 2) Intelligentsia and as a last - they interract with regime. That's the full scholar text - so - addition a part of the text without a context need to be fixed to proper representation of the scholar text. P.S. Same text appeared here [7] at page 62-64 - and notable to include as separate section - may be name "Bandera's OUN and Nachtigal participation" would be intact. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 07:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The above is an example of original research. The author you base that on discussed the incident directly. And in that discussion he contradicts your claim. The full quote from page 323: "Важливим є також той факт, що розстріляні у Львові професори належали до групи польської інте-лігенції, яка протягом 1940–1941 рр. активно співпрацювала з радянським режимом. Вони були членами радянських творчих спілок, депутатами рад, делегатами польської громадськості Львова, що у вересні 1940 р. відвідували Сталіна і вели з ним переговори про можливість створення прорадянського польського уряду4 (на противагу еміграційному урядові в Лондоні). Тому вбиті у Львові польські професори цілком могли трактуватися оунівцями, як "приклонники большевицько-московського імперіалізму". Адже зі 160 професорів-поляків, які мешкали у Львові на червень 1941 р., для знищення вибрали лише тих, хто "засвітився" на співпраці зі сталінським режимом. Ві- домо також, що лідери бандерівської Організації в 1941 році прагнули запозичити від гітлерівців "досвідрозв'язання єврейської проблеми" (про це яскраво свідчать протоколи 1-ї конференції ОУН(Б) у липні 1941 року) *, але реально організованого та дієвого карально-репресивного апарату бандерівці не мали. Поодинокі відділи української народної міліції залучалися до антиєврейських акцій, але вони виконували тільки допоміжні функції при німецьких спецзагонах. Наприклад, Я. Стецько у своєму листі-звіті до Бандери від 25 червня 1941 р. відкрито писав: "Робимо міліцію, що поможе жидів усувати" 5. Можна з великою долею впевненості стверджувати, що окремі члени ОУН таки брали участь у винищувальних акціях, а також підбурювали до цього звичайних обивателів, розповсюджуючи листівки з такими недвозначними зверненнями: "Народе! Знай! Москва, Мадяри, Жидова – це все твої вороги. Нищ їх. Знай! Твоїм проводом є Провід українських націоналістів ОУН. Вождем є Степан Бандера. Твоєю ціллю є Соборна Самос- тійна Українська Держава. Твій шлях – шлях Української Національної Революції. Шлях збройної боротьби. Шлях ОУН" 6. Тож теоретично бійці ДУН мали цілком достатньо ідеологічних підстав для знищення польських науковців. Однак ще більше підстав для їхньої ліквідації мали німецькі спецгрупи, що керувалися наказами шефа нацистської поліції безпеки та служби безпеки, обергруппенфюрера СС Р.Гейдріха від 2 червня та 1 липня 1941 р. в яких наголошувалося на необхідності знищувати комуністичних функціонерів, комісарів, євреїв– держслужбовців, пропагандистів, а також польську інтелігенцію7." The admitedly clumsy googletranslation: ""What is important is the fact that shot in Lviv professors belonged to a group of Polish-lihentsiyi interests, which during 1940-1941 he actively cooperated with the Soviet regime. They were members of the Soviet artistic unions, members of councils and delegates of the Polish city public that September 1940 Stalin visited and conducted talks with him about the possibility of creating a pro-Soviet Polish uryadu4 (as opposed to government in exile in London). Therefore murdered in Lviv Polish professors might well be interpreted insurgents as "pryklonnyky Bolshevik Moscow imperialism." Because of the 160 professors -Poles who lived in Ukraine in June 1941, chose to destroy only those "light up" in cooperation with the Stalinist regime. Bi-It is known also that the leaders of Bandera in 1941 sought to borrow from the Nazis' Jewish dosvidrozv'yazannya problem "(as the record clearly the 1 st Conference of OUN (B) in July 1941) *, but actually organized and effective punitive and repressive apparatus had Banderas. Single Ukrainian folk police departments involved in anti-Jewish actions, but they performed only auxiliary function in German Riot. For example, J. Stetsko in his letter report to Bandera from June 25, 1941 Open wrote: "Do the police that will help eliminate the Jews" 5. It is fairly confident to say that some members of the OUN did involved in destructive actions, and strove to the ordinary inhabitants, distributing leaflets with the following unambiguous appeal: "People! Know! Moscow, Hungarians, Jew - all your enemies. Nysch them. Know! Wires led thee is of Ukrainian Nationalists OUN. Is a leader Stepan Bandera. By Your goal is to be constantly Cathedral Samos-Ukrainian state. Your path - the path of the Ukrainian National Revolution. The path of armed struggle. OUN Way "6. So theoretically fighters Tung had enough of ideological reasons for the destruction of Polish scientists. But even more reason for their elimination had the German spetshrupy that followed the orders of the chief Nazi security police and security services, SS Obergruppenfuhrer R. Heydrich on June 2 and July 1, 1941 which stressed the need to destroy the communist functionaries, the commissioners of Jewish officials, propagandists, and Polish intelihentsiyu7." The chapter then goes on (I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing here) to debunk various claims about Nachtigal's involvement. Any third party ought to read it, here is the link: [8]. If you can't read Ukrainian, use googletranslate. The result is clumsy but you'll get an idea and you will clearly see how Jo0doe misrepresents Patrilyak's work.

Basically, Patrilyak's chapter describes how the murder of the Polish intelligenstia would match the OUN's goals. Then Patrilyak states that doing so meets the German goals even better. The source then goes into detail about how the OUN didn't or couldn't do it and debunks claims to the contrary. Jo0Doe refers only to the first part of Patrilyak's chapter in order to create the false picture that Patrilyak's work supports the idea that Ukrainians were the perpetrators of the massacre. As usual Jo0doe totally falsifies what the source actually says, by quoting just a part of it in order to create the false impression that the source says the opposite of what it actually says.Faustian (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Questions about the recently added section about collaboration

Sandstein advised me to try to discuss matters on the talk page trying to establish a consensus. I think we should try that. So I have the following questions and I hope Faustian will be able to shed some light on this issues:

1) What are the credentials of the author of the book? There is no wikipedia page about him, establishing his bibliography would be helpful.

2) What sources does he use for the claims added by Faustian? Particularly, are there any photos of the alleged talks to form a collaborationist government, or written records of the talks in Soviet archives, or a testimony of the Polish or Soviet participants in these talk?

3) Why are there no other sources about these high level talks?

4) After occupying the Eastern part of Poland in 1939, Stalin annexed the territories to the Soviet Union. Why would Stalin want to form a pro-Soviet Polish government? To govern what exactly?

5) Why were a large number of close relatives of the professors murdered as well (wives, sons, daughters) as well as other personal who did not high enough positions (such as for example nurses etc.) J.kunikowski (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The statement does not use the term collaboration, but cooperation. I suggest you read what is written, much more carefully. The source is published by Kiev University, the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences. THe first part of the book cited is here as a pdf: [9]. Here is proof that the author, Ivan Kazimirovich Patrilyak (suggesting partial Polish descent?) is a professor of history at Kiev University: [10]. Faustian (talk) 19:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Faustian please provide other scholarly sources for this bizarre and never heard of before claim. Extraordinary claims need many different sources not just one PDF. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Why is the claim bizarre? Because you think it is? Here is a quote from the wikipedia article of one of the victims, Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński. "After the outbreak of World War II, Boy-Żeleński moved to Soviet-occupied Lwów, where he stayed with his wife's brother-in-law. In Lviv, Boy joined the Soviet-led University as the head of the Department of French Literature. Criticized by many for his public and frequent collaboration with the Soviet occupation forces, he maintained contacts with many prominent professors and artists, who found themselves in the city after the Polish Defensive War. He also took part in creating the Communist propaganda newspaper Czerwony Sztandar (Red Banner) and became one of the prominent members of the Society of Polish Writers." Are these also bizarre claims?Faustian (talk) 19:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

More is here, on the wikipedia article: [11]. "The Soviets sought to recruit Polish left-wing intellectuals who were willing to cooperate.[69][74][75][76] Soon after the Soviet invasion, the Writers' Association of Soviet Ukraine created a local chapter in Lwów; there was a Polish-language theater and radio station.[74] Polish cultural activities in Minsk and Wilno were less organized.[74][76] These activities were strictly controlled by the Soviet authorities, which saw to it that these activities portrayed the new Soviet regime in a positive light and vilified the former Polish government.[74]

he Soviet propaganda-motivated support for Polish-language cultural activities, however, clashed with the official policy of Russification. The Soviets at first intended to phase out the Polish language and so banned Polish from schools,[67] street signs,[77] and other aspects of life. This policy was, however, reversed at times—first before the elections in October 1939;[77] and later, after the German conquest of France. By the late spring of 1940, Stalin, anticipating possible future conflict with the Third Reich, decided that the Poles might yet be useful to him[citation needed]. In the autumn of 1940, the Poles of Lwów observed the 85th anniversary of Adam Mickiewicz's death.[78] Soon, however, Stalin decided to re-implement the Russification policies.[75] He reversed his decision again, however, when a need arose for Polish-language pro-Soviet propaganda following the German invasion of the Soviet Union; as a result Stalin permitted the creation of Polish forces in the East and later decided to create a communist People's Republic of Poland.[74][75]"

Many Polish writers collaborated with the Soviets, writing anti-Polish,[76][unreliable source?] pro-Soviet propaganda.[74][75][76] They included Jerzy Borejsza, Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński, Kazimierz Brandys, Janina Broniewska, Jan Brzoza, Teodor Bujnicki, Leon Chwistek, Zuzanna Ginczanka, Halina Górska, Mieczysław Jastrun, Stefan Jędrychowski, Stanisław Jerzy Lec, Tadeusz Łopalewski, Juliusz Kleiner, Jan Kott, Jalu Kurek, Karol Kuryluk, Leopold Lewin, Anatol Mikułko, Jerzy Pański, Leon Pasternak, Julian Przyboś, Jerzy Putrament, Jerzy Rawicz, Adolf Rudnicki, Włodzimierz Słobodnik, Włodzimierz Sokorski, Elżbieta Szemplińska, Anatol Stern, Julian Stryjkowski, Lucjan Szenwald, Leopold Tyrmand, Wanda Wasilewska, Stanisław Wasilewski, Adam Ważyk, Aleksander Weintraub and Bruno Winawer.[74][75][76]" Faustian (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Faustian could you please restrain from posting so much text about not directly related issues? Thanks. Now regarding your previous comment ok point taken it's "cooperation" not collaboration (although frankly i don't much of a difference). Is there a list of bibliography by that author somewhere? Can you translate the pdf you link above and what are the sources for the Polish-Soviet talks? J.kunikowski (talk) 19:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I only posted all that to show that the idea of Polish intellectuals cooperating with the Soviets was not some wierd unheard-of event that you claimed it was.Faustian (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Please provide other reliable sources that confirm that the professors executed in the "Lvov massacre" were specifically chosen by the Nazis because of their alleged cooperation's with the Soviet occupying forces. Since you brought this claim forward, you need to back it up with satisfactory sources. So far none of the scholarly work on the subject I'm familiar with confirms your claim. Also, please do not remove the "dispute tag" until this dispute is over.--Jacurek (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

So one source is not enough if you do not like it? Also, your tag is not about dispute it is about nuetrality. How is that information not nuetral? A Ukrainian historian claimed that. He really did claim that. There is a ref and even a link proving that he claimed it. The fact that he claimed it is true and nuetral. The source is reliable - info about the author and his academic background have been provided. As for corroborating evidence, I don't know if this is a reliable source but one of the victims, who was released, stated that his interrogator accused him of working with the Bolsheviks: [12] "I found myself in a room where there were two officers, a younger one who arrested me and another one of a higher rank, a large, portly man. He immediately shouted at me: "You dog, you are a German and have betrayed your German country. You served the Bolsheviks! Why didn't you, when it was possible, depart with all the other Germans to the West? " I began to explain, at first quietly and then louder, as the officer raised his voice, that although I was of German descent I considered myself a Pole. Secondly, even had I intended to go West, the Soviet authorities would not have permitted it because of my high social position as University Professor and well-known clinician - they considered me indispensable. I was then asked to explain the meaning of the visiting cards of British consuls found in my possession. I replied that I was married to a titled English lady and we were often visited by British consuls. He grew quieter, and apparently impressed he said: "I'll have to speak to my boss, we shall see what can yet be done for you" and hurriedly left the room." Faustian (talk) 22:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

One source would be O.K. if the claim was not extraordinary. By inserting this claim into the article you have turned the victims of the massacre into anti-Polish collaborators who were punished for doing that by the Nazis and their Ukrainian cooperators. This claims changes the whole prospective of the events and it is VERY VERY serious allegation therefore you need to back it up with some better sources. One PDF article in Ukrainian language in far less from being satisfactory. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The "one pdf article in Ukrainian language" (is something wrong with articles converted to pdf and placed online?) was written by a professor at Kiev's National University and published by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences. He is a specialist on this subject. Hereis the beginning of the book cited: [[13]. The article does not describe these people as collaborators, but as people who were seen by those who reported on them as workng for the Soviet system in various roles. In many of these roles they are no more collabortors than is anyone who worked in Communist Poland and who belonged to trade organizations, etc, during communist times. As I wrote earlier, it would be good to make clear that these victims were not necessarily traitors or communists. I object, however, to simply erasing information from reliable sources just because someone doesn't like it, or mislabeling the information as "not nuetral" because someone doesn't like it.Faustian (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

"He is a specialist on the subject" Which subject is that exactly? From what I can see the book is not about the Nazis and their crimes but rather the OUN which wasn't involved in the massacre. Secondly you still haven't stated what is the source for the claim that these professors were talks with Stalin(!) to form a pro-Soviet Polish government. Also you still haven't explain why would Stalin, after annexing the Eastern part of Poland to Soviet Union, wanted to form a Polish government and with members of Polish intelligentsia, which were usually seen as class enemies, to boot. This is such a bizarre claim that it needs to be properly addressed, sourced and explained. J.kunikowski (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

"As I wrote earlier, it would be good to make clear that these victims were not necessarily traitors or communists." What kind of absurd statement is that? They were NOT traitors or communists. Would you like somebody writes about you: "Faustian is not necessary a thief". J.kunikowski (talk) 23:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Becaause one of the victims was openly accused of being a traitor or communist. Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński: "After the outbreak of World War II, Boy-Żeleński moved to Soviet-occupied Lwów, where he stayed with his wife's brother-in-law. In Lviv, Boy joined the Soviet-led University as the head of the Department of French Literature. Criticized by many for his public and frequent collaboration with the Soviet occupation forces, he maintained contacts with many prominent professors and artists, who found themselves in the city after the Polish Defensive War. He also took part in creating the Communist propaganda newspaper Czerwony Sztandar (Red Banner) and became one of the prominent members of the Society of Polish Writers."

Also, If you read the article you will see that not every victim was said to have flown to Moscow to meet with Stalin or to participate in the formation of a pro-soviet Polish government. This was one of three criteria for being placed on the list of those to be killed, the three criteria being "members of Soviet working groups, members of Soviet councils, or members of a delegation that met with Stalin and discussed the possible formation of a pro-Soviet Polish government." Haven't you read the article?Faustian (talk) 23:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I see is that the Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński article has a grand total of zero sources. Please stop copying tons of text from other wiki articles and provide sources. J.kunikowski (talk) 23:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The bottom line is that if this heavy claim that the professors were chosen for the execution because they were Soviet collaborators is not backed by other scholarly sources it has to be removed. You can not "dig out" some bizarre speculation of one guy and present that as a fact. Please take your time Faustian and research other scholarly material on the subject.--Jacurek (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The bottom line seems to be that you are saying that you want to remove info if you don't like it, against wikipedia rules which do not state that more than one clearly reliable source is necessary for information.Faustian (talk) 00:56, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

This claim that the professors were murdered because they were Soviet collaborators is new to anyone familiar with the subject. Again, you need to provide VERY good sources for this revolutionary claim in order to be included in this article. To my knowledge, serious sources backing up your claim do not exist. I can’t find anything that would confirm that. I can’t read the PDF material you provided because it is not in English or in latin alphabet. PLEASE provide scholarly sources that CLEARLY state that THE PROFESSORS WERE CHOSEN FOR THE EXECUTION BECAUSE THEY WERE SOVIET COLLABORATORS, otherwise this claim has to be removed. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 02:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

If you cannot read it, cut and paste the material into "googletranslate". The result is somewhat clumsy but you can still understand generally what is said. Are you reading what the article and what I say here? Nobody is calling them collaborators. So why do you insist that this is what is claimed? I agree that the word "collaborators" should not be used, and it isn't. Instead of referring to the victims as collaborators, the source states they were chosen because they cooperated with the new Soviet regime in one of various possible ways.Faustian (talk) 12:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

One thing here: it's true that Boy-Zelenski cooperated or collaborated with the Soviets. It's true that he was among those killed in this massacre. But, as it turns out he wasn't actually one of the people on the list prepared (supposedly by OUN affiliated students) for execution; he was arrested by chance while visiting somebody else. So he's not really a good example of "they were executed because they cooperated with the Soviets" thesis. Additionally, at least a couple of those executed had previously been imprisoned by NKVD and barely escaped with their lives when the Soviets left the city. Rencki was one. So it's more or less impossible to say that these people where arrested and executed because of prior collaboration with Soviets, although some of them may have done so. If you look through some of the names, the only commonalities that jump out at you is that 1) lots of them were doctors or somehow affiliated with the schools of medicine, and 2) many - but not all - of them had taken an active part in the fighting for Lwow in 1918, which is probably the main reason they were targeted.radek (talk) 06:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment! Can you find a ref for that so we can out it in, in addition to the information already contained in the section? It's important to note that the article states that they were alleged to have cooperated with the Soviets based on what the Ukrainian students said. It could very well be that the students based their allegations on the fact that those guys fought against Ukrainians in 1918, that those professors were negative towards Ukrainian students or supported anti-Ukrainian policies (I remember reading that somewhere, but couldn't find the references so I didn't put it into the article). It seems to make intuitive sense that their way of getting back at those professors was to in some cases falsely, in some cases not, identify them to the Germans as people cooperating with the Soviets. Those last sentences are my specualtion. On the other hand, there does not seem to be anything odd about those people cooperating with the Soviets in the way they are accused of doing. Cooperation doesn't only mean working for the NKVD. It could also mean, for example, being a delegate (such as a member of a faculty senate) with a Soviet organization (such as the Soviet-reorganized University). There does not seem anything strange about people living their lives under the Soviet government and engaging in that sort of cooperation.Faustian (talk) 11:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Doing their work at the University is not "actively cooperating with the Soviets". If the Nazis + OUN justified the murders that way then wikipedia has to make it clear these were bogus accusations made by butchers and killers. If you look at the list of murdered people there are 3 wives, 9 sons and 1 grandson of professors among the murdered which further dismantles the cooperation theories. J.kunikowski (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose eveyone has their own interpretation of what it means to cooperate with the Soviets. You are right about the family members - the murderers also killed the loved ones of those who were accused of cooperating with the Soviet authorities during Soviet rule.Faustian (talk) 12:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah everyone have their own interpretation, the question is why should wikipedia go with the interpretation of the killers and murderers. J.kunikowski (talk) 12:51, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It shouldn't, and it doesn't. It is not an interpretion of a killer or murderer to cite a source that states that the victims were alleged to have cooperated with the Soviet regime. If the source stated they definitely were collaboratos and Bolsheviks or something like that then yes, that would be wrong. But it doesn't state that at all. Faustian (talk) 13:01, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Faustian would you please make up your mind? Now you claim that the source says they were "alleged to have cooperated" while yesterday you translated the source as follows:

"Important is the fact that the professors who were shot in Lviv belonged to the group of the Polish intelligentsia, who between 1940 and 1941 actively worked with the Soviet regime. They were members of Soviet working groups, members of Soviet councils, or delegates from Lviv's Polish community who in August 1940 visited Stalin and conducted talks on the possibility of creating a pro-Soviet Polish government in oppostion to the government-in-exile in London. Therefore, the murdered professors could be intereprested by the OUN as supporters of the 'Bolshevik-Muscovite imperialism.' So, out of the 160 Polish professors who lived in Lviv in June 1941, only those who stood out for their cooperation with the Stalinist regime were chosen for destruction."

Now according to your above translation of the source, the source claims that they have actively worked with the Soviets, visited Stalin(!), and even went so far as conducting talks to create a pro-Soviet Polish government in opposition to the government-in-exile in London.

Faustian stop playing games and tell us does the source actually say. Does the source says the professors were alleged to cooperate with the Soviets by the Nazis (or OUN) or does the sources claims these things as facts which happened. J.kunikowski (talk) 13:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

You forgot to read the word "or."Faustian (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

That's your answer!? So I will ask you again: does the source say that they were alleged to cooperate as you claim today or does the source present these things as facts as you claimed yesterday? J.kunikowski (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

• But it’s clear to see that the origin of claims about mythical “pro-soviet Polish government in 1940” originated from source cited under footnote 4 - Кальба М. Ми присягали Україні. ДУН 1941–1943. – Львів, 1999. –С. 117 – - “memoirs of the Myroslav Kal’ba – mentioned here [14] as Schutzmann Myroslav Kal’ba - one of the Nachtigal and later 201 Schutzmannschaft Battalion member – so again – scholar text with examples of the Banderas OUN accusations was simply ‎given out of context of the scholar conclusions – given at page 363-364 (you can copy-paste sentence-by sentence to google translate to comprehend general idea - Actually google translate suggest a mess of words [15]

HTML version of text [16]). Thank you P.S. Story is similar to Stella Krentzbach affairs [17] Jo0doe (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice example of using original research to argue against a reliable secondary source's conclusion.Faustian (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)