Talk:Rapture

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Added external link under the 'Support' heading

I added a link to Answers in Revelation.org, which is, arguably, the most scholarly presentation of the post-tribulation rapture view on the web. In addition to articles concerning the rapture, the site also contains audio material, charts, and debates on various eschatological viewpoints, all of which make it a strong resource for anyone investigating Christian eschatology. "Answers" is not my site. It is owned and authored by Tim Warner of Oasis Christian Church in Tampa, FL.Phoenix1861 (talk) 15:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For real?

Like articles about Pokemon creatures where the opening line says the article is about a fictional creature, shouldn't the opening line of this article say it is about the fictional gathering? I am actually not kidding. Christians may feel hurt about the word "fictional" being added to this article but it should somehow be made clear that this is not necessarily reality. There is the word "idea" but it feels a bit too "hidden". Maybe "theory" would be appropriate, I'm not entirely sure about the right (non-hurting) choice of words.W3ird N3rd (talk) 01:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps one day the article will begin like the one on Ragnarok and call it Christian mythology. We aren't there yet. The compromise is to label it as prophecy, with the understanding that it is both conjecture and subject to personal interpretation. JethroElfman (talk) 11:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also tried to avoid the word "doctrine", since I don't think a lot of churches put these prophetic details down as specific articles of faith, other than the essential one that Christ will come again. JethroElfman (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is normal convention to speak of existing religious views as "beliefs" and extinct religious views as "myths". Since Wikipedia has a NPOV policy, it can neither promote nor ignore any notable POV. So, calling the rapture a "fact" or a "fiction" is a judgment call we cannot make. It is, instead, a "belief." While it may or may not be objectively true that Jesus is coming back, it is objectively true that many people believe it. We are not really reporting Jesus' wherabouts or business schedule here, but instead we are reporting on Christians and their beliefs.EGMichaels (talk) 10:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2012

User:Rossnixon keeps reverting an entry to the Etymology section (which contains a list of predictions) for the year 2012, stating that it has relevance to the End Times article, but not this one. The entry being removed very clearly states that Christians have associated this prediction with the "Final judgement" and "second coming of Christ", which is obviously related to this article. I do see some problems with weasel wording, but the appropriate course of action for that is cleanup, not outright removal. Ross, as I clearly asked you in edit summaries, could you please summarize your objections to this content here? Thank you. Jess_talk|_edits 03:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In case my edit summary needs expanding, here are my further comments. I am very familiar with the history of 'the Rapture' and it's interpretations. The so-called prophecies of 2012 have not come from a Christian source; and I a unaware of any reputable of high-profile Christians endorsing an association between the 'Rapture' and these prophecies. If there are any, they have not been cited. Any such claim in the article can be summarily removed by editors, if not backed up by *any* citation. ^ross ^nixon 02:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously you haven't done a cursory search on the topic, since "2012 Christ" returns over 2.5 million hits. This result seems fine to use. Since your only objection here is that it is uncited, I'll add the content back in. As a note, the policy for BLPs is to remove any uncited info immediately, but for regular articles it is customary to use citation needed tags and remove the content only if no source arrives. Jess_talk|_edits 02:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but the word 'Christian' doesn't appear once on Judyth Piazza's bio page on that site; and the site is little more than an advert for her book. I don't think it therefore can be described as either a reliable source [WP:RS], or even as a Christian prediction. ^ross ^nixon 02:58, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jack van Impe is widely recognized as a long-standing Christian commentator on issues like this; so thank you to the editor who added this. ^ross ^nixon 03:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added both refs. Judyth's is perfectly appropriate, considering it discusses her feelings that the "Second Coming" will occur in 2012, which precisely backs up the statement being cited. The first paragraph is:

Christ taught 2012 in the Bible. In Matthew 13:39-40, Christ says he will come for the Harvest at the end of the age. The Harvest is the separation of the wheat from the tares or the good people from the bad people and the end of the age is Dec. 21, 2012.

This, in and of itself, is sufficient. Blogs and self published content (including advertising materials and the like) are sufficient for citing the author's thoughts on a subject, per WP:RS. In any case, it might be best to quote the book itself, so rather than replace the citation as it was, I'm including it as the book instead. Jess_talk|_edits 04:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves". They cannot be used to support statements about other subjects.

Looking at the publisher for the England book I see AuthorCentric Self Publishing "AuthorHouse™ exists to help authors achieve success -- by their definition. We provide a broad array of tools and services to allow authors to make their own choices throughout the publishing process. Authors retain all rights, maintain editorial control and choose the exact selection of services that best suits their goals. Our self publishing company allows every author to control his or her own publishing destiny." See again the quote above about self-published sources. Please look further for a reliable reference to replace this. (I have also looked briefly, not found anything yet.) Mirokado (talk) 08:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, self-published sources can be used for information about themselves. That's precisely what we're doing. The sentence being cited is that some Christians have claimed a link between 2012 and the second coming of Christ. An appropriate citation for such a claim is a Christian drawing such a connection, which she does in her book. What we're referencing is her thoughts on the matter, published in her book. We're not using it as reliable information about anyone else's opinion, or any actual state of affairs besides her thoughts. That's precisely what WP:RS means. It would be fantastic if we could find a secondary source to talk about some "phenomena of Christians thinking the rapture will come in 2012", but I'm not familiar with any such sources, so the best we can do is the authors themselves, such as Jack van Impe and Mary England. Jess_talk|_edits 10:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I must disagree again. WP:SELFPUB refers (see quote above) to information about the publisher, particularly in an article about the publisher. This article is about "an event in the futurist interpretation of Christian eschatology", not about Mary England, so this self-published information is not applicable. You could probably use her book to support an article entitled "Mary England", but that would fail WP:NOTABILITY in the absence of good secondary references. You have made it clear above that the book is also a primary source (her own work) of original research (her thoughts) which means that the citation fails two other Wikipedia guidelines, WP:PRIMARY and WP:NOR, and indicated that you can find no relevant secondary sources. For all these reasons it is entirely clear that the citation will not be accepted in this article, so I have removed it.

The Van Impe video, although also self-published, originates from a notable person in the general field (own Wikipage for example) and can probably be used to support the example of him as one of "some Christians" (I have expanded the citation to include all the information I was able to find about the DVD.) However, this is by no means good enough to support the claim that this entry in the list of "notable predictions" is in fact notable. I have thus moved the ref adjacent to the information it can support.

This leaves the entry as a whole unsupported by a suitable reference so I have added citation needed. Please continue to look for a good secondary reference to support the notability of this prediction. Note that the wikilink to 2012 is largely a red herring as this wiki page demonstrates that the associated predictions have hardly anything to do with Christianity or the Rapture, as rossnixon has already pointed out (nevertheless I suggest you read through it in case any of its references help you here.) Mirokado (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No reference establishing notability after one month. I have removed this and other entries in that list with Citation needed tags older than one month (see the template documentation.) Mirokado (talk) 01:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Traditional

The following removed from article: (because this church not identified and no references or citations given to back it up). The church which came from the Apostle Paul while teaching in Rome, to the USA through Wales VIA Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (Acts 18:2) who studied under Paul, believes that there is no "rapture" in the commonly taught way that John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) or his Darbiest followers believe beginning in the 1800s, but that we are "changed" at the resurrection, when we are "born again" into the "spiritual body", which is "incorruptible", as the Apostle Paul taught.

This doesn't even really make sense and it's entirely uncited. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 01:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

daftity

I can't make sense of this paragraph:

Over the last few centuries, believers in the rapture of the church have made predictions regarding the date of the event. The primary scripture reference cited for this position is Matthew 24:36, where Jesus is quoted saying; "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only"

It seems to say something completely daft: "The Holy Scrolls say that nobody knows when The Event will occur, therefore on March 21, 1844 [or whenever] we should all climb a mountain and sing 'Now is the end, perish the world'." Is this deliberate satire? 71.248.115.187 (talk) 01:47, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]