Talk:Christopher Busby

Notability

If anyone bothers to follow the links at http://chrisbusbyexposed.spaces.live.com they will soon find ample evidence of Busby's mediocrity as a "scientist". For example, check out the Menai Straits report on Busby's self-promoting www.llrc.org website. He knows it is littered with basic errors, yet he is happy to continue misleading the public by leaving it published on his website. Leaving aside his ineptitude, in my mind this indicates a lack of integrity that is incompatible with scientific enquiry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JunkScienceWatch (talk • contribs) 15:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

He is a known scientist with several publications. Why deleting this article? Yann (talk) 18:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

He has not "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (WP:NOTE), and nor does he pass the professor test (he fails all nine criteria of WP:PROF). Even within the area of fringe radiation research he is hardly notable (notorious, maybe). Verbal chat 19:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Journal of Radiological Protection

From the Journal of Radiological Protection:

"Chris Busby ... is apparently quite prepared to self-publish reports containing glaring errors in data and/or analyses; nonetheless, the findings are duly given publicity in the media, presumably a principal objective. Efforts should be made to enable journalists, in particular, to distinguish between the reliability to be placed upon the results given in self-published documents and those appearing in scientific journals"

"Chris Busby is essentially an aspiring politician who happens to have scientific qualifications – he is the Green Party’s spokesperson on science and technology and has stood for election to the European Parliament – and, in my view, his actions must be seen in this light. It would be asking too much of him to make substantial concessions on the very issue that has brought the media publicity that provides the fuel to drive a political career."

Chris Busby is one seriously discredited scientist or someone abusing their scientific credentials for political gain. MatthewFP (talk) 23:31, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

My edits were deleted by anti nuclear sentiment. The edits I've made are neutral. They are valid and cited from a highly regarded Scientific Journal. Any disagreements should be filed on the talk page. MatthewFP (talk) 23:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The Journal of Radiological Protection criticism was already in the body of the article, when you also added it to the intro, and the main body version was not deleted. The question is the prominance. I think it was already covered at an appropriate level of prominence. Note WP:BLP advises:

• "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced ... so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone."
• "Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint ..."

I think both those point to not putting criticism in the first sentance. Rwendland (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:RS

None of the recently added sources meet the reliable sources guidelines. Please read this before adding more references to make sure that they wont be removed. Verbal chat 07:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Another example is the addition of Chris Busby Exposed, which fails on BLP grounds as well as RS - although there may be some useful information here. Please though, continue to edit the page and this talk page. Verbal chat 22:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Busby is a significant figure in radiation protection, whether you agree or disagree with his findings and assertions. He has been on two UK government committees and among other things has recently had an article article published by the United Nations disarmament forum. He is a Guest Researcher in a German Federal Institution and a Visiting Professor at a British University. He has several peer-reviewed publications and was recently the subjest of the main science news story in the prestigious New Scientist journal. Since his discoveries and writings are fatal tyo the nuclear industry, he is continuously attacked by nuclear industry hacks and supporters and this is more easy to do when they are writing on blogs and in a way that their identity and connections are secret. The rubbishing article , chrisbusbyexposed, contains no verifiable peer reviewed evidence apart from refernces to legitimate scientific arguments which should be aired in the peer review literature and not through hatchet jobs on wikipedia. Profwoland (talk) 12:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Note: I removed a link to that article and asked people not to add it again above, per WP:BLP. Verbal chat 15:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

As it says on the New Scientist page, New Scientist is not a scientific Journal MatthewFP (talk) 23:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

References and Publications

Hello,

Are the references now OK so that we can remove the warning template? Re Publications, I don't know how formatting should be done. If someone would be kind to help. Thanks, Yann (talk) 14:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

Thank you Verbal for your welcome. I wonder if we can put this to bed now. All the references are from independent sources and I have tried to be as neutral as I can; all of the changes I made relate to independently verifiable reports. If you wish, we can discuss this issue further, and certainly the entry could be expanded, but I was concerned that the attacks by the busbyexposed people might result in a biased entry. You should be aware that there are many changes taking place in radiation risk science and that the day of the physicist is over; effects are now clear due to biochemical and living system response discoveries. These are real, and have been published in many peer review journals, but many rad risk physicists maintain their aloof and outdated bag of water models.Profwoland (talk) 12:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The article is currently a puff piece which selectively reports and cherry picks viewpoints. It does not currently meet biography policy (+ive or -ive contentious material). See also WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK for other applicable guidelines and policies. I will be reverting to the previous stub per bold, revert, discuss and changes should now be discussed and justified on the talkpage. I look forward to improving the article with you. Verbal chat 12:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Publications

Not all Busby's publications should be listed, only books and any important works should be included in the article. See our article on Arthur Rubin, for an example. Verbal chat 12:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Revert

Why has the previous version been changed? Why have the affiliations been removed? I wish to open a dispute on this issue which is independent of Verbal; please let me know how to do this. Profwoland (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I have given my reasons above, in the edit summary, on your talk page and on my talk page. Per WP:BRD we are now at the discuss stage. Please discuss what changes you'd like to make and why in a new section on this page, and then we can all move forward. There is no reason for dispute resolution as yet, first we have to attempt to work through any dispute. To summarise my reasons again by linking to relevant policies: WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE, WP:COATRACK, WP:BRD... I suggest quoting some of the changes you'd like to introduce below. My main concern isn't adding the affiliations, but that they are worded neutrally and that they are reliably sourced. I have added back some of your material after resourcing it. Verbal chat 15:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Affiliations: Kuhn and Ulster

I'd like to reinsert "He is currently guest researcher at the German Federal Agricultural Laboratory Julius Kuhn Institute in Braunschweig, Germany and is Visiting Professor in the Faculty of Life and Health Sciences in the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland." but it is currently unsourced. If you find a reference for this please add it and reinsert. Verbal chat 16:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I have tried to insert the following:

He is currently guest researcher at the German Federal Agricultural Laboratory Julius Kuhn Institute in Braunschweig, Germany and is Visiting Professor in the Faculty of Life and Health Sciences in the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland.

He is the author of the self-published Wings of Death and Wolves of Water, which outline Busby's studies and challenging beliefs regarding the effects of radiation on human health.

Publications

• Wings of Death. Nuclear Pollution and Human Health, Green Audit Books, 1995, ISBN 1-897761-03-1
• Wolves of Water, Green Audit Books, 2007, ISBN 1-897761-26-0
• ECRR 2003 Recommendations of the European Committee on Radiation Risk. Health Effects of ionising Radiation Exposure at Low Doses for Radiation Protection Purposes. 2003 ISBN 1897761-24-4
• CERI Recommandations 2003 du Comite Europeen Sur le Risque de'lIrradiation. Etude des effets sanitaires de l'exposition auzx faibles doses de radiation ionisante a des fins de radioprotection. Groups des Verts au Parlement Europeen. Editions Frisons-Roche. ISBN 2-87671-449-3
• with Prof A.V.Yablokov Chernobyl--40 years On Green Audit Books ISBN 1-897761-25-2

This includes a reference to a United Nations UNIDIR disarmament forum piece commissioned by them which lists Busby's affiliations. If the United nations are happy that he is these things i guess Wikipedia might be OK about that? Alos I have put in some other books in the bibliography. Is everyone OK with this? Unfortunately, the entry now seems corrupted. The last half has disappeared. Something I did? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Profwoland (talk • contribs) 11:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was because you didn't close the ref tag - as the error message on this talk page told you. Also, please do not remove or change other people's comments on the talk page. This comment also properly belongs in the affiliations section, so I am moving it there. Please read the advice I left on your talk page about how to edit wikipedia. Further breaking of the page will be regarded as vandalism. Verbal chat 13:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Fringe beliefs?

FRINGE beliefs??? --AdeleivdVelden (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, see WP:FRINGE. Verbal chat 21:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

BLP issues

I agree that this article may not meet the notability guideline for academics. But the article portrays Busby as a ratbag "activist", and dismisses his work as being on the "fringe". This is hardly very flattering. I think there are some WP:BLP issues here. Johnfos (talk) 06:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

His work is not dismissed, but correctly described as fringe. He even holds this view - although he posits it is correct, something wikipedia cannot do. Verbal chat 06:14, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you know Christopher Busby? Johnfos (talk) 10:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of his work and writings. Do you? See WP:COI Verbal chat 13:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have never been to the UK, nor met Busby. My sole concern has been to get a fair BLP per WP guidelines. And Disembrangler has now revised the article and done that. Good work. Johnfos (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted many of the changes as they use non RS and selfpub sources, from a known dubious source. Red links to a deleted article were also added, and a biography should not be used as a WP:COATRACK. Verbal chat 23:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Undid reversion, which covered far too many changes (mostly additions) for a straight revert to be remotely acceptable. I added a number of sources - please explain which were non-RS or self-pub, we can discuss/address those. Which redlinks are to deleted articles? I don't know and can't find evidence, but obviously if correct that is an argument for removing the redlink(s) not blanket revert. Finally, how does the addition of a lot of material, some positive and some negative, have anything to do with WP:COATRACK? Disembrangler (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Controversy

Chris Busby has been accused by the Journal of Radiological Protection of using/abusing his scientific credentials to further his political career and as such I have mentioned this and cited the Journal directly. It also seemed pertinent to mention in his career that he has stood as an election candidate in the European elections. MatthewFP (talk) 00:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

While it is not up to me to decide the original issues about radiological protection, i feel the need to point out the bias the recent edits show. The accusations about bias/agenda/political opportunism mentioned here and published in the Journal of Radiological Protection by Dr. Richard Wakeford can be easily reciprocated. In [12](Reflections on CERRIE) Dr. Richard Wakeford identifies himself as a representative of the "nuclear industry" to CERRIE. The fact that he is also the honorary chief editor of the Journal of Radiological Protection shows the Journals affiliation. Further we find editorials (not scientifical papers) [12] and [14](What to believe and what not to) outlining the need for publishing papers and the direction these papers should take. Since the edits cite editorial notes as peer reviewed scientific papers and therefore somehow neutral and true i suggest the following additions citing [12]: "According to the editor-in-chief of the journal, a fellow CERRIE committee member and representative of the nuclear industry, "much of Chris Busby’s work is self-published and difficult to access; he seems mainly to avoid publication in the recognised scientific literature, which presents difficulties for a proper review of the evidence underlying his conclusions."" Thank you for your consideration —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.7.215.105 (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This looks like an attempt to bias the article. Wakeford is also a professor of epidemiology (and editor of a peer-review journal), and when he made these comments he was no longer working for BNFL. Journals that look at radiology suggest an affiliation to the subject, not to any particular interest. I would look to the fact that the journal is published by the Institute of Physics as outweighing your allegations of prejudice.Flywheelbones (talk) 23:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The CERRIE website identified Wakeford as an employee of BNFL (see citation); as late as 2006, according to his LinkedIn entry[1], he was still working for them. I have added this affiliation to the article, even though I think Wakeford's characterization of Busby is accurate (see my other recent edits to the article.) Yakushima (talk) 05:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I do not think it is accurate to characterize Wakeford as a "representative of the nuclear industry" simply because he worked for BNFL; however, a pecuniary affiliation with the nuclear industry will attract attention no matter what, in this controversial subject area. So we might as well just state it as a fact somewhere, if we're going to be quoting Wakeford at all. Yakushima (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

P.P.S: The precise wording under which "representative of the nuclear industry" might be justified as a description of Wakeford's role in CERRIE is this:

CERRIE membership was an eclectic mix of anti-nuclear campaigners [...], the National Radiological Protection Board [...], the nuclear industry (me) and five scientists with backgrounds in academia or research institutes who hold a variety of views on the health effects of exposure to low-level radiation.

Make of that what you will. In any case, Wakeford's got a great point: that a committee with such diverse views on nuclear power could somehow, with the exception of Busby and co., issue a joint report speaks volumes about how far out on the fringe Busby is. I'd say this merits mention in the article. Yakushima (talk) 06:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

1. ... to bias the article ... setting an ad hominem attack in its relative perspective is biasing the article? Maybe in wikiscience ...

2. The IOP is depending on charity to the rough amount of 40.000mio Pound (http://www.charitiesdirect.com/charities/institute-of-physics-293851.html), that makes them a little less than independent in my opinion.

3. If by fringe you mean scientist who are able to state their believes and still be somehow employed, i follow you. In Europe, the Green Parties are not fringe, they are conservative environmentalist with a faithful, usually knowledgeable electorate.

4. The books sponsored by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust and written by Chris Busby are easier to access than most pure scientific writings as the intended readers of the former are the whole population. If Wakeford would wish to publish writings like the Minority Report, why should Chris Busby mind?

5. While i doubt the SET-Hypothesis personally, i am aware that many scientific articles can be ridiculed under enough scrutiny.

6. Natural laws are not subject to Democracy, science can be. 3 anti-nuclear activists and N>3 representatives with political dependent employment is a farce, not a "fair" assessment. The CERRIE-Report agrees with some articles and disagrees whith others without stating individual mistakes (except Busbys`) or specific scientific values. However it agrees upon many insecurities contempory radiation risk assessment is up against and also on a higher rate of childhood leukemia. They state the possibility of a population mixing process being to blame for the higher rates. This is a hypothesis for now, not universally accepted truth.

I think the edits to my edit make it less readable, but still have, in part, the desired effect of putting the attacks into perspective, if the reader knows what BNFL is.

While i love to discuss, i feel uneasy with the limiting rules in wikipedia, and will therefore not edit the article for now.

Sorry for foaming about the mouth (points 1-6) a bit :)