Talk:Symphony No. 9 (Bruckner)

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Quoting Beethoven's Ninth?

I removed the line from the article

for Bruckner consciously went further - what we have of the Finale shows certain sections which actually quote from his predecessor's work.

This is the first time I hear of this. I've listened to three different Finale reconstructions and read the accompanying booklets for all of them. There's talk of Bruckner quoting his own earlier pieces, but nothing about him quoting any Beethoven. Anton Mravcek (talk) 22:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

V13

What's V 13?

request standard movement list

with tempo markings... thanks. DavidRF (talk) 01:47, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sébastien Letocart's completion (2008)

I have reverted a recent edit here because of WP:NPOV concerns with the wording. Instead of relying on edit summaries, let's try to have an actual discussion here before making further changes, okay? Rivertorch (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Rivertorch: First of all I must say I am also not entirely happy with the recent edit of this unknown user, providing already some information on the newest edition of the Samale et al. Finale (which I represent). I would have preferred to give this information not so early. But the facts are correct, so …

In my last edit I have corrected some minor mistakes in Mr. Letocarts statement and put the links into the link section. I have also taken out one link referring to Mr. van der Waals article, which was there twice.

Regarding Mr. Letocarts version, I understand the intention of the unknown user to make clear that Letocarts score is not the only alternative arrangement to the Samale et al. performing edition, as one can also see from Mr. van der Waals article.

A section like "Further Finale Arrangements" would make sense in order to provide information on the scores by Ernst Märzendorfer (1969), Hein s`Gravesande (1969), Marshall Fine (1969) and Nors S. Josephson (1992). These four scores, and those of Letocart and Carragan, are those providing a completed movement; however, those of Märzendorfer and Fine are not published and unavailable.

One last word regarding Mr. Letocarts score: He has taken (as we would be able to legally approve from a comparison of his score, which we have in copy, with our own publications) the Samale et al. performing version and the "Documentation of the Fragment", edited by John Phillips for MWV as a starting point, without the permission of the copyright holders. The result he presents is a strange mixture of maintaining those elements of our publications he could agree with, and replacing all of our findings he could not agree with merely with his own composition. A stylistical analysis of his score proves that he even changed quite often Bruckner´s own, definitive instrumentation (as far as it survived). He has published a commentary which he calls a "thesis" (unfortunately only in french) in which he tries to justify his decisions, however, one should note that this is not an academical "thesis" as we understand the term, because as far as I know it was not written with the aim to achieve a degree. artiumbremen (talk) 22 June 2011 11.52 MET —Preceding undated comment added 09:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Dear Mr Cohrs,

I am not a musicologue or a composer, but a Bruckner's freak since my adolescence. I have found the CD with S. Letocart's completion on John F. Berky's site and, consequently, I thought that it was advisable to add a paragraph "Sébastien Letocart's completion (2008)". I think the current text is as neutral as possible.

I am open for making further additions as long as there are sources to document them. Your suggestion for a paragraph "Further Finale Arrangements" is welcome. However it should cite published sources.

For two of these persons there is a page on wikipedia:

For late Ernst Märzendorfer, as you write, his completion is no not published and thus unavailable.
On page Marshall Fine is indicated that he is an author, journalist, and movie critic. Is he well the person you mention? As you write, this completion is also not published and thus unavailable.

For the two other persons (Hein s'Gravesande & Nors S. Josephson) I do not find any documentation on wikipedia. Perhaps you could provide me with sources on which there is some documentation on their completion.

Best regards, --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 12:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PS: About his sources Letocart writes: Le fac-simile des divers manuscrits, esquisses et bifolios du compositeur disponibles dans le "Finale Faksimile-Ausgabe" édité par la Musikwissenschaflicher Verlag Wien (MVW) sous la direction de Léopold Nowak ont servi de source principale à ce travail de complétion du Finale de la 9ème symphonie. D'autres documents, thèses et réalisations ont été consultés. Ils ont constitué une importante somme d'informations objectives ou au contraire nous paraissant parfois hautement contestables autant sur le plan des hypothèses avancées qu’au niveau de la réalisation musicale. Quoiqu'il en soit, ces autres sources ont permis d’enrichir ma critique et ma réflexion personnelle. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 12:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just have found this link on which there is documentation on Nors S. Josephson's completion and it can be listened to it, as well as a link to Hein s'Gravesande's score. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 15:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Several comments:

Inline citations should be used to support statements in the article's text, so I suspect that the two pdf files at abruckner.com should be moved back into the text, rather than stuck down in the External links section. (My Internet connection is slow enough at the moment that I haven't checked the links, but assuming they meet reliable source guidelines and support what the article now says, they should be inline citations.)
I'm not sure that unpublished completions merit mention in the article unless they have been substantially discussed by secondary sources.
The sourced statements about the availability of s'Gravesande's and Josephson's respective scores are inappropriate because the links lead to commercial sites where the scores are sold. If readers want to buy the scores, it's up to them to find the sellers; we don't provide those kinds of handy links. Rivertorch (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All information on attempts to complete the Finale can be found in the article of Aart van der Wal. These attempts are also discussed in the Musik Konzepte Volume 120-22 (Bruckners Neunte im Fegefeuer der Rezeption) and in the Dissertation of John Phillips (Bruckner´s Ninth revisited, 2003), available from the University of Adelaide, Australia. artiumbremen Artiumbremen (talk) 12:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]