Wikipedia talk:No original research

"Synthesis" indeed!

WP:SYN is simply the most badly worded and misunderstood bit of policy in the whole of world wide wiki land! What it should state is that it is unacceptable to link statements together as a rhetorical device, so as to imply (connote) conclusions that go beyond the premises. What it actually forbids is any kind of synthesis whatsoever! It actually forbids logic! It reduces WP to a list of direct quotations. That is all we can do according to WP:SYN. Furthermore, not only does the policy forbid more than it intends to forbid, but it fails to prevent what it intends to prevent! To illustrate this, look at the first example given on the policy page:

>A simple example of original synthesis:

>The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.

>Both parts of the sentence may be reliably sourced, but here they have been combined to imply that the UN has failed to maintain world peace. If no reliable source has combined the material in this way, it is original research. It would be a simple matter to imply the opposite using the same material, illustrating how easily material can be manipulated when the sources are not adhered to...

But, you can imply the same conclusion, without combining anything, purely by sequencing, thus:

The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security. Since the creation of the UN there have been 160 wars throughout the world. ... Stho002 (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that your post covers several very different topics. While it was not on your main thread, I think that it is a problem that under wp:nor, as written, if followed literally and rigorously, anything but a direct quote is OR. Wikipedia makes it work most of the time by going by reasonable / common sense interpretations of the policy. But such a "conflict" between reality and policy opens it to abuse, which also happens. Gives wiki-lawyer POV warriors a magic bullet to throw out any material that they choose.

Second, you are addressing the concept that juxtaposition does imply a connection. I think that it is important to recognize this even if it is hard to pin down. Your dissection of the vulnerable example shows that it is hard to pin down.

Third, that example also has POV connotations. I.E. implying (without stating) that the UN is a failure by the mere presence of that second phrase. This points to a gaping and widely exploited hole in the wp:npov policy. This is for cases were the mere presence of material is prejudicial /POV, but where it slips under the radar of the wp:npov policy because it does not explicitly make any statement about the issue at hand. So, the example is one where wp:nor is trying to be a (weak) backstop for POV'ing that slipped through a gaping hole in the wp:npov policy.

Finally, I can't tell whether you are saying that the wp:nor policy needs tweaking (I agree) or that WP should be opened up to substantial creative thought, things created by (what the writer considers to be) logic etc. by editors. There, I would disagree.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Your example would be considered implicit synthesis and would violate policy. TFD (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I note that user:Stho002 is currently blocked. But I'll respond anyway. I wrote WP:SYNTHNOT, an essay that no one else has edited so far, to address problems with non-common-sensical interpretation of SYNTH. In particular, the objections here seems as though they're covered adequately by SYNTHNOT in the sections "SYNTH is not mere juxtaposition", "SYNTH is not ubiquitous", and "SYNTH is not a matter of grammar". If anyone has a better idea than SYNTHNOT for how to deal with SYNTH's potential for over-broad interpretation, I'd be glad to hear it. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 03:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't seen SYNTHNOT previously. I like it, but I don't think it's much help here. It says that gray-area cases aren't SYNTH, just unclear writing, but, well, this is an example which came up over something I wrote, and I'm still not sure whether I was right or wrong. The discussion mentioned there has been archived, and can be seen here.

This appears to be an oft-repeated discussion; see e.g., this archive search for "synthesis by juxtaposition". I'm guessing that there are other discussions touching on this which don't include that exact search string. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I like to imagine that SYNTHNOT would have helped, some: people alleging SYNTH would have felt a little more obliged to spell out what thesis was being implicitly advanced; people wanting to include whichever text in the various articles would have felt a little more obliged to rewrite so that an unintended thesis was not suggested (or to make it explicit and find a source for it). The argument would have focused a little more on rewriting and less on removal, more on spelling out the thesis supposedly being suggested and less on generalities about verifiability. I can't fool myself into thinking that SYNTHNOT would have helped dramatically in all cases, though. For one thing, it's only an essay. People on all sides are free to simply disregard it.

In the case of the birther article, the implicit claim is that the particular passage of law applies to the certificate in question and contradicts the statement of the AG spokesperson. That legal interpretation requires a source, given that one provision of law often is superseded by others, or has legal import at odds with its plain-English reading. The text of the law seems like something that could be included, but not in that juxtaposition. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 05:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

SYNTHNOT is a good essay. While Wales himself (I think) identifies "crackpot theories" as one of the things to be avoided by the NOR policy the policy obviously also apples to non-crackpot theories. Wikipedia chooses to not be the place for the publication of any original research. That seems to be an entirely sound policy.

I do agree with both Stho002 and Dan Wylie-Sears 2 that all synthesis should not be forbidden. Wikipedia is, after all, an encyclopedia. It is straining to pretend that for every aspect of everysubject there is a non-encyclopedic source for every useful bit of information. In articles on topics of importance (where here I'll suggest that "importance" implies that there are refereed journals that are devoted to the topic, although I'd not push this to the limit - it's more of a notion) it ought to be completely obvious that such journals are written at a high level, to be read and understood by those already competent in the field (there are guidelines for authors that say exactly this.) these are persons for which exposition and clarification is unnecessary - because, as experts, they already know. The mandated ()by extremists) reference for the results of a synthesis that is sometimes adamantly insisted on simply may not exist - and the nonexistence is most likely for a synthesis that is obvious and non-controversial. The synthesis may, however, be something that provides useful clarification or insight to the non-expert reader (as you'd anticipate most Wikipedia readers would be.)

I do not argue for nor wish to sneak in any OR by these words. The point is that synthesis may be an appropriate outcome of intelligent editing, editing that is solely concerned with making the subject matter more clear or more accessible, to highlight implications of fully accepted principles and facts in the field of inquiry being discussed in an article. If another editor perceives a taint of OR in such synthesis then let the discussion begin. It seems willfully and carelessly contrary to the nature and purpose of an encyclopedia to savagely apply an unnecessary rule. SYNTHNOT expresses it well: if the synthesis isn't an instance of OR then it is not a violation. What has happened, however, is that after the prohibition of synthesis was inserted into NOR based on examples of apparent OR done by the use of synthesis the eventual (and, given human nature, nearly inevitable) result was that of all synthesis being declared inappropriate. If SYNTH is part of NOR then, surely, the only legitimate use of SYNTH to forbid synthesis is strictly limited to cases where SYNTH introduces OR. Absent the introduction of OR there is no problem with SYNTH (insofar as violation of a basic Wikipedia principle is concerned.) It is not and can not be appropriate to find one or a few examples of any rhetorical technique that has been used in violation of the basic rules of Wikipedia and to then absolutely forbid that technique because it has been misused. If that can be done then simple declarative sentences should be forbidden, once one s found that introduces OR.

Bottom line, though: read and pay attention to SYNTHNOT. It's well thought out, well written. Then let that guide an improvement in the policy.Minasbeede (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

"Novel Synthesis"

Template:Uw-nor1 warns users not to publish "novel, unpublished syntheses". This phrase is Wikijargon and is not self-explanatory to a Wikipedia outsider. Is there a better more familiar short phrase that could replace this? Marcus Qwertyus 22:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

You are right. I took a swing at it. Gigs (talk) 17:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)