Talk:Heathenry (new religious movement)

Odin Brotherhood (redux)

Regarding this, I suggest mention along these lines. There is, of course, no merit to the "founded in 1421" claim, but as with Gardner it is impossible to tell whether Mirabello made it up himself, or whether he genuinely believed the story told to him by somebody who made it up. Not that it really matters. This is part of the 1990s history of the "second revival of Germanic neopaganism", and I suggest it deserves a brief mention here. I know of no indication that any Odin Brotherhood exists in any real sense. Anybody and their grandmothers can of course create facebook groups, wordpress blogs and the like with the title, but that doesn't qualify as "reference" in our sense. --dab (𒁳) 19:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Asatru and racism

This section of the article is headed as 'Asatru and Racism' but only discusses Odinist extremism.

This is a significantly misleading title. Asatru as a term is used to describe a follower of the Aesir Gods, whilst Odinism is its own category. This section should be retitled as 'Odinism and Racism', as there is not evidence cited of such racism in any Asatru organisation. This is a small change but will reflect the content of this section 100%.

I would also propose the moving of the quote from the White Order of Thule 'Felton and Chase' prosecution in the US. I had not heard of this, but having reviewed the White Order of Thule wiki page they do not meet the classification of Germanic Neopagan. According to the this page they 'followed pre-Christian beliefs as represented by the ancient Celts, Norse, Greeks, Slavs, Romans and other ancient Indo-European peoples'. This is not the definition of Germanic Neopaganism as it includes Greek and Roman beliefs, and is unfairly tarring the germanic neopagan page (there is now no separate page for Asatru in its own right) with the brush of US domestic extremism and racism. As the linked page does not meet the definition of Asatru, it should not be included here. It belongs on the neovolkish page, not Asatru or germanic neopaganism. Indeed, the White Order of Thule page itself refers readers onto the neo fascism page, not here.

Furthermore, the FBI report is into domestic threats in the year 2000. This report does not concern itself with groups who do not attach a special significance to the year 2000, and that caveat is clearly written in the executive summary of the report. Why then is it the permanent tag line to the section on racism in Asatru? The year 2000 has been and gone. Intelligence has a shelf life, and that report was specific to 1999. It is now 2011. I will add the much more strongly worded caveat that the report itself provides that states it does not refer to organisations without a Y2K issue . This is critical, as it is not listed anywhere on this article as an issue for any neopagans, and the year 2000 is/was not a significant date for any of the groups on the page.

And the section mentions Robert Jay Mathews - upon consulting his wiki page he is both deceased as of 1984 (hence pre-dating most of the organisations listed on this page) but also was a mormon and then a white supremacist. It makes no mention of any Odinist or otherwise neopagan beliefs. Again, the inclusion of this fact is not corroborated elsewhere, but adds a massive taint to the germanic neopaganism page.

These are basic categorisation errors that are giving this page a heavy slant towards extremist views.

Erghiez1985 (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I have now made these changes as discussed. I have also added a section to state that the Asatru Alliance and The Troth are not Odinist organisations, as the current article implies that they are. I've also added the sections from these organisations' charters in which they explicitly state they reject racism, to give the article more balance.

Erghiez1985 (talk) 15:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Beliefs

This section claims to set out the beliefs of Germanic Neopaganism, however it lists a quote from an Odinist organisation calling it 'the first creedal statement of Germanic heathen beliefs'. This claim is not referenced, and by making the statement it implies that this creed is somehow a good summary of the whole. It is not - it is a summary of Odinist beliefs.

This particular section does not do justice to any of the other religious groups who fall under this wiki category of germanic neopaganism. Asatru organisations have their own belief statements for example, and the Troth, Asatru Folk Assembly and Asatru Alliance all have more modern and moderate mission statements, statements of ethics and so on. These are significantly more moderate than the language used in this Melbourne creed (which mentions 'holy nations of Odin', sacred blood, blasphemers and traitors being renounced etc etc). If you are trying to capture a belief statement of the germanic religions and give an objective view on the beliefs of these religious groups, then using the international organisations such as the three mentioned above makes more sense and is more balanced. If not exclusively, then they need to have their own beliefs stated for balance, otherwise this section is just 'Odinist beliefs' and further to my above post will suggest that all Germanic Neopagans subscribe to this Odinist creed. To stress again, they do not.

This article is combining 4 or 5 strands of germanic neopaganism into one page, and then trying to impose commonalities where they do not exist. There is a significant volume of information on the actual beliefs and practices of these religious groups out there, and if this page is going to try and lump these branches of heathenry together it needs to do it properly and accurately, or not at all and separate them out into distinct articles in their own right.

Erghiez1985 (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Racism section

I'm a little concerned that some elements of this article appear to tip over the POV line a little. One section that caught my eye read:

"Such connections between northern heathenism and racism are tenuous at best. The double-standard of racism seems only to apply to "White" people, as nearly every ethnic group has organizations celebrating their heritage (e.g., MEChA)."

I've removed this, though I've tried to tune the section above it so that the point is preserved (that no act of terrorism has ever been attributed to an Odinist group).

I'm aware that Asatru/Odinism/Norse Heathenism does have an issue with its unwarranted association with racism and white supremacism; however the above comment ("double-standard") was a personal assertion and not something that adds to the article. It may or may not be true, but it's still POV. Obviously if we can find a quotation from someone relevant and notable, there'd be nothing to stop this going back in as a quote. - Silvensis (talk) 12:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Neopaganism?

I think it might be good to take the "neo" out of this article. The main "Neopaganism" article has been changed to Paganism (contemporary religions), so related articles probably should reflect that. Also, in my experience at least, the majority of people practicing Germanic religions (as well as other culturally specific European religions; Celtic, Roman, Hellenic, etc.) do not refer to themselves as "Neopagans." I think changing it to "Germanic Paganism (contemporary religions)" would reflect the population better, while still being broad enough to include Reconstructionists and Germanic-focused eclectics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorPrincessDanu (talk • contribs) 15:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Massive changes?

Why have the massive changes taken place? They appear to be removing references and replacing them with questionable references, and unexplained reorganizing that doesn't appear to have the same flow that the article had. - SudoGhost 20:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually I have just reorganised the text trying to make order in terminology. I have added some paragraph about minor Heathen movements, with their proper sources. I've not removed any sources (just one, because the site is down), on the contrary I've added new sources. I am a Heathen myself, I have been studying the subject for years. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germanic_Neopaganism&action=historysubmit&diff=442254236&oldid=442253004

--188.10.31.174 (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)