Talk:Til Ungdommen
 | Norway Start‑class | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
Untitled comment
Why is the Kraakevik rendition particularly notable? Birgitte Grimstad released the song in the early 90's (if not earlier).
Untitled comment
maybe this translation is better: http://home.online.no/~bjni/tilungd.htm SKvalen 01:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Missing references
Unfortunately, the article includes neither references nor citations. As such, it's not a bad article, but being Danish and not Norwegian, I'm not qualified to improve on it. (I took the liberty of adding it to WikiProject Norway.) One final question, though: Could parts of the article possibly be problematic w.r.t. copyright? Dan Villiom Podlaski Christiansen (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
- Apparently, that's done on this page, who'd have known? ;) Dan Villiom Podlaski Christiansen (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
English translation
While the Rod Sinclair translation is poetic on its own, it omits a few verses, has one that I can't match to the Norwegian, and in my opinion, shifts the message of some lines. I'm Danish, not Norwegian, but I can read the language. Below is my own translation which might be a little less poetic, but a perhaps little truer to Grieg's poem.
For the youth.
Surrounded by foes, enter your time. Under a bloody storm – dedicate yourself to battle.
Perhaps you ask in fear, uncovered, open, what shall I fight with what is my weapon?
Here is your defence from violence, here is your sword: Faith in our lives, the value of mankind.
For all our future’s sake, seek it and praise it, die if you must – but: Increase and strengthen it.
Silently the grenades glide in their trajectory. Stop their drive for death stop them with spirit.
War is contempt for life. Peace is creation. Put your efforts in: Death must lose!
Love and enrich with dreams all that was great! Head for the unknown seize answers there.
Unbuilt built power plant, unknown stars. Make them with spared lives' bold minds!
Noble is mankind, the Earth is rich. If there is need and hunger it is due to deceit.
Crush it! In the name of life injustice shall fall. Sunshine and bread and spirit is owned by all.
Then lowered are the weapons powerless down! If we make human worth we make peace.
One who with right hand carries a load, dear and irreplaceable cannot kill.
This is our promise from brother to brother: We will become good towards mankind’s Earth.
We will take care of the beauty, the warmth as if we carried a child gently on our arm! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakobsen1978 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Text is copyrighted until 2014
The text is not free, it is protected 70 years after the end of the year Nordahl Grieg died (1943). ZorroIII (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
ZorroIII has also raised this issue also in connection with the addition of translations. If the original Norwegian cannot be published, then presumably translations cannot be either. We need to take this issue seriously.
I wonder whether the fact that the poem is already VERY much in the public domain makes any difference. It is already very well known, in detail, so publishing it on a web page (with no intent of commercial profit) is not revealing something that was previously "secret". Within the last week, the full text has been published (in audio form) on national television - at memorial services in Oslo Cathedral and in Oslo city centre. The local newspaper where I live published the full text of the poem on its front page (indeed as the only text there). It seems to me that this aspect of the text already being in the public domain would make a difference, but I am not an expert in this area and raise the issue in the hope that someone with more expertise can express an opinion. (I have noted from some brief web searches on the topic that rules in this area are not completely black/white.)
Another thing to look at is whether it is possible to seek permission to publish. I don't know how to do that in a case like this where the author is dead; perhaps someone can help with that. Joe Gorman (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I haven't found a source confirming that the text isn't in the public domain. The current norwegian copyright law was first enacted in 1961, and it is not retroactive. When the poem was written in 1936 it would be covered by the Berne convention and be protected for at least 50 years after the authors death, i.e. 1994. It could also be covered by any national legislation from that time period which might protect it for a longer period, but I haven't found any such legislation. It would be helpful if someone knew what the protected period was in 1936.
If it isn't in the public domain we might still be able to reprint it and translate it here, depending on the wishes of the author. The poem and the ideas it contain was obviously meant to be read and sung and spread to our youth. It was written for use in the Norwegian Students Society, they might know if reprinting is allowed. Conscientiouspirate (talk) 23:56, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Inaccuracies in Literal Translation
While the "literal translation" is mostly good, it is not always an entirely literal translation. In particular, there are a few instances where the translator seems to struggle with the nuances of certain words in both languages. Is this translation taken from an external source (in which case it is best left alone and referenced) or is it simply an attempt at a literal translation by a Wikipedia contributor (in which case I will make a few minor alterations to make it more literal)? Maitreya (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Reasons for adding a third translation
This poem is deservedly receiving a lot of attention at the moment, and I feel that there may be many others (like me) who want to communicate the ideas of the poem to a wider audience, outside Norway.
I feel that the Rod Sinclair translation is quite good linguistically, and has the strength of following the rhyming structure and rythm of the original - making it suitable for e.g. a song performance. However, I feel that the need to follow the rhyming structure limited the language in a few places, so there was some straying from the message of the original text. In addtion, this translation is incomplete.
I feel that the literal translation is mostly accurate, but misses the nuances a little in the English. Besides, poems are not poems if translated literally.
So I tried a kind of compromise between the two. I have not tried to retain the rhyming or exact rythm of the original, so my translation is not suitable for singing. But neither have I constrained myself to supplying a literal translation; I have taken the freedom to stray a little in the language itself but (I hope) not in the message behind.
I am a scientist and a researcher, not a poet. Although English is my mother tongue, this is my first ever attempt at a translation of a poem. If others more qualified to judge feel that I have failed, I humbly accept their view. But in these special days when people may wish to spread this poem widely, I hope I may have filled a need, even if imperfectly. Joe Gorman (talk) 21:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter, as the text is not free and should be removed from the article. ZorroIII (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- If it is not allowed to publish the original Norwegian text in the first place, then I agree: the pros and cons of different translations don't matter because they should not be published either. I've raised some issues about the copyright issue in the section above about copyright. Perhaps we can get some clarity from further discussion about that. If it is after all OK to publish the original Norwegian in a setting such as this, or if we can obtain permission through proper means, then the issue of the advantages of different translations becomes relevant. Joe Gorman (talk) 10:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Words in the text that are not linked
Can words such as this be linked to sections in any of our other articles?