Talk:Abiogenesis

Abiogenesis video based on Dr.Jack Szostak's ideas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

Quickly put, this video appears to be interesting in this connection, as it presents life's development before the development of lipid membranes. proteins, DNA/RNA, but is a process developing the functionality of life ie growth, competition, replication, evolution, etc. at a complexity stage involving only existing thermal energy sources (no chlorophyll), and only normal chemistry. It is not produced by his lab, but checked and confirmed by them to be in accordance with his thinking, ie that of Dr Szostak, who got the Nobel Prize for his work with teleomers.

As this would, in terms of life's beginnings, push it back to an earlier stage of with less complexity; perhaps it should be incorporated in this article. To its merits are that it provides a path for evolution where the currently discussed processes could be attained.

I do not have the expertise in the subject nor have I ever written or revised an article. So my apologies for bringing up something which would require work by others. I love this subject, both on a biological scale and the cosmological one, thus this comment. Thankful for constructive comment.Idealist707 (talk) 20:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Youtube videos are not WP:RS, so are not a suitable basis for inclusion. Has this material been published (e.g. in a peer-reviewed journal)? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 03:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have asked his lab to confirm it reflects their research.

Generally I would suspect that only key parts of the research have been published; but will see if there is a review article which has passed peer review. Haven't even googled it yet. Much left to do. Have you looked at the video, regardless of its WPvalue? Perhaps the producers of the video could provide this info and become engaged in this project. His Nobel Prize speech 2 years ago had only 10 minutes devoted to the last 20 years of his research, ie since he left the teleomer field behind him. If I understood him, his goal is to produce life from such basic processes. Not just to play at God, but to find how basic genetic processes can be controlled to improve medical diagnostics and remedies. Idealist707 (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• No, videos generally make for a poor foundation for writing an encyclopaedia article, so I did not bother. I think you'd be better off looking through Szostak's published writings than speeches and videos -- but that's up to you. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 03:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• Looking at the reference list, I now understand the work done here.

Beyond my skills and level of engagement. My role is enthusiastic layman and fan. Thanks. Happy to have be guided by a civil person, not defending his ivory tower with five dragons and a very cutting tongue. My signature was/is "Retired, but not tired".Idealist707 (talk) 09:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

repeated content in the article.

I read the whole article and I felt that in many parts same things are being repeated again and again, making it a little bit... frustrating to read... are wikipedia articles meant to be read fully?--Irrational number (talk) 07:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"outside the natural sciences" => myth

(i) The title of another article is not a valid topic for discussion here & (ii) this issue has been thoroughly WP:DEADHORSEd on the relevant articles
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm concerned about the implication inherent in the statement at the top: "For views on the origins of life outside the natural sciences, see Creation myth." I'm aware that the word "myth" can mean "a traditional or legendary story", (from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth), but it also means (and this is the meaning that seems to be implied) "an imaginary or fictitious thing or person". I'm also aware that many creation myths exist from all over the world, and that Wikipedia as a whole tends toward scientific naturalism in its content on metaphysical ideas, but the redirection to that particular page for "origins of life outside the natural sciences" seems intended to be pejorative towards alternate views. Perhaps it would be less offensive to redirect the reader to "Creationism". Pianoroy (talk) 03:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Origin of Darwinian evolution rather than origin of life

Should there be some discussion before such a section is added to Abiogenesis? A separate article and a link may be a better way to handle this. Dan Watts (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Separating facts from faith.

I found it a little odd to read the following statement, "For views on the origins of life outside the natural sciences, see Creation myth" Yet it seems much of what I read in this article is also akin to a naturalistic creation myth, in that much is believed yet not demonstrated and taken on faith. I also think that there is some clever writing, yet the article should be a little more clear for the uninitiated, such the following statement which seems a little ambiguous "Abiogenesis (pronounced /ˌeɪbaɪ.ɵˈdʒɛnɨsɪs/ ay-by-oh-jen-ə-siss) or biopoiesis is the study of how biological life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes. In particular, the term usually refers to the processes by which life on Earth is thought to have arisen" I agree with the second sentence but the first is unnecessary and shows a certain bias. I would also like to see at least a significant part of the article speak of the pre biochemical logistical nightmares involved in the process of creating a living cell through human intel much less through random or unguided forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BENNY BALLEJO (talk • contribs) 23:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

50 years of research and no artificial life, therefore god did it. And just where is the research on that then? Have we recreated god creating life in the lab; if that was more plausible it would be easier to do than messing about with random processes. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 06:30, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure we shouldn't beat that dead horse just a little harder? 209.6.28.116 (talk) 20:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Arose or thought to have a rose?

I reverted a change from "arisen" to "thought to have arisen". The article is obsessively PC as it is, and we don't need all that pussyfooting, especially when it is meaningless; if life turns out to have arisen by being quickened by the finger of a creator, then the study of that process by which it arose is by definition the valid subject matter of abiogenesis. Otherwise we wind up replacing every single verb in the article with "thought to have ..." as in "thought to have thought to have thought to have arisen" or something thought to have amounted to that. JonRichfield (talk) 11:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentance reads as "In particular, the term usually refers to the processes by which life on Earth has arisen", however it is not entirely certain life did arise on Earth as oposed to ariving in a preexisting organised state through panspermia or exogenesis. These are less plausible origins than the emergence on Earth but not so implausible that we should discount them as having never happened without further evidence to entirely falsify them. It is a bonus but not the aim that young earthers read "thought to have arisen" as a concession to them, as it keeps them docile as they go about living their delusional bronze age fantasies. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 21:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

<Gronk!> OK, OK! I suppose... I won't change it back, but I won't make difficulties if someone else does. <mttr... mttr...! Stone heads in bronze ages... Gronk!> JonRichfield (talk) 07:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Definition

I personally think that current definitions of life are a bit too restrictive. I've even heard from a few places that life has to have DNA to exist. In my opinion, life should simply be anything and everything that can reproduce more of itself, if given resources to do so. For instance, viruses would be alive, as when given resources (host cells), they can produce more of themselves; self-replicating machines would be alive because, when given resources (materials such as steel, silicon, wires, circuits, etc.), as they can produce more of themselves; and perhaps even stars would be living, as after a supernova a nebula could form, which is a common birthplace of additional stars. I think that it is possible that we could discover extraterrestrial life, and not even recognize it as such. Carnivorousfungi (talk) 13:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

According to your definition, computer viruses would also qualify as living beings, as they contain instructions to copy themselves. And stars? Come on, such a definition is not usable in practice. Would a rock rolling off a mountain qualify too? Because it can induce other rocks to also roll down. Let's just stick to common sense definitions that everyone understands, because such broad categories are only confusing. -- Lindert (talk) 13:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, the Wikipedia article is to be anchored in reliable sources. Abiogenesis and life need sourced definitions. It is interesting that what seem to be components of life can be generated; but not a living, growing entity. drs (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Although I sympathise with the inclusive definition until such time as we have worked out a definitive basis for discriminating between different phenomena that could be described as life in some sense and context, I must agree with those who would not accept crudely mechanical situations such as rolling rocks or snowballs, nor even trypsinogen cultures and the like. Viruses? Borderline. Best accept them in appropriate contexts and exclude them in appropriate contexts. For the rest, till further notice, in appropriate contexts I point out that for most practical purposes, we are discussing organic, information-coding, largely spontaneously generated, life of forms that occur or have left evidence for having occurred on Earth. Context is very important in educated discussion of this sort; let's respect it accordingly and thereby waste less of our own and each other's time. That question of the definition of life belongs in another article. JonRichfield (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• This thread is kind of off the topic of Abiogenesis here. A self-replicating machine is not subject to abiogenesis as it is designed by a person using the knowledge they have come up with. A star is not life as it does not pass on any usefull acquired encoded information after going supernova. Viruses are life (same common ancestor as every other life form on Earth, as far as we know) as they contain the variation of matter encoded information that has been selected for its ability to reproduce itself. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 21:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Evolutionary biology edit

In response to the change and request, I am not much fussed about the edit, but I do have serious philosophical reservations about the distinction between the emergence of life and the role of Darwinian evolution once independent organisms, cellular or otherwise, with Mendelian reproduction had become established. The entire basis of the emergence of precursors to unambiguous life forms is strongly heuristically selective (though not specifically directive, of course). Stochastic selection would not have worked; it is a popularly misunderstood misconception and irrelevance that creationists keep getting hung up on. Does this affect your views on the heading etc? Cheers JonRichfield (talk) 17:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I am just concerned that laymen will see the template and their misconception that evolution explains the origin of life will be strengthened. While abiogenesis and evolution are closely tied, it may be interpreted differently. Evolution by natural selection is a process distinct from abiogenesis which acts on existing organisms, it doesn't create them. Maybe its best if we just leave out this template, it shouldn't hurt the article. Cadiomals (talk) 18:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Abiogenesis lead

User:Harizotoh9 recently reverted one of my edits which added a sizeable lead to the article, saying that it "seems too long" now. The lead I created for Abiogenesis is more than adequate. It may have "seemed" long to Harizotoh9, but is is actually the perfect size in proportion to the rest of the article. Every article needs an adequate lead that summarizes the contents and gives an introduction to the topic, not just a quick definition. Depending on the size of the article a lead should not be more than 4 paragraphs, and for an article as long as Abiogenesis the lead size was perfect. Look at the leads for evolution, the history of life, and history of the earth and you will see that these articles are long and SO the leads are fairly sizeable in proportion. Please also see -- Cadiomals (talk) 18:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I haven't checked whether any of the items in your version of the lead do not occur in the rest of the article. On a superficial reading I do not see anything that you have said as unnecessary, and would want to see them all in appropriate form in the body. I also have read what you said about the lead size balancing the size of the rest of the article, but there I fall out of the bus.

I also read WP:LEAD and I think there are some badly confused ideas there. First let us imagine as an academic exercise, an article with NO lead, right? At the start there would be a heading, say "Overview" or "Introduction" or "Why we wrote this" or "Did you know?" or something similar. In such a section we might write little or much. It might contain four paragraphs or four subsections of four words, and not many readers would be in a position to complain about the article quality as a result.

However! Lots of people have a certain inertia about getting into a body of reading. Others may be looking for something and skimming article after article in a hurry. They don't want your Intro or lead that extends over a page or so, be your eternal truths never so true or your prose never so deathless. Such people (and they are many) want to see in a short, simple, definitive sentence, what the article is about. At worst, it should fit into the floating window that we can invoke by holding the cursor over a link. It does NOT have to be a dictionary or textbook definition, but at the same time it does NOT have to balance the rest of the article, either in logic or in length. It does not have to summarise anything. It is NOT an abstract, a synopsis nor a part of a balanced literary exercise. Suppose that you do decide that a synopsis is desirable; then why is it desirable to deny it a heading and call it a lede or lead? It is at its most functional when the reader knows within ten seconds exactly why he should read on or not, even if he does not yet have any idea about the structure or the content. That is the sort of thing he can get from the introductory section, whatever its title, as long as it is competently written. The lead is not an introduction, or should not be. If it is written as such, it does no one any favours. The introduction should indeed have a proportion and structure proper to the rest of the article, but that is a totally different matter.

Now, consider the short lead. It is a pity if anyone should use vague expressions like "seems long enough", that is a pity because it offers no objective or even nearly usable criteria. You think it is too short he thinks it is too long, and the readers just want a route marker. The needs to be met are not yours, but your readers'. If you want to balance or structure your article, then the headed sections are the place to do it. If you want to tell the reader why to read on or drop the matter, and do so more helpfully than the title can do it, then the lead is the place. That is what to put at the top, with no heading beyond the article title.

But what of WP:LEAD you say? What indeed? Nothing the article says demands that you write ten words or ten thousand, so you are able to use your own good judgment, not about how long it is, but about what should most usefully appear in the lead and what in the headed sections. And don't forget what appears in the floating windows and the first page together with any leading illustration. No explanation, argument or justification is needed there. To put anything of the kind of into the unheaded lead rather than the headed initial section is a confession of inadequacy. That sort of thing should go into the article structure, and there is no reason why the article should start with an unheaded section. The fact that other long articles have long leads is no recommendation; it is an indictment. IMESHO of course... ;-) JonRichfield (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Wow you wrote a really long response. I did actually read through it and you bring up some good points. However, my rationale remains.

• This lead existed for a very long time before some user removed it and replaced it with a two sentence, unsatisfying definition and transferred and rearranged the lead material to a new section. A major change was made without discussion that is potentially detrimental to the article. So actually I'm just reverting those edits and its up to that user to explain themselves, not necessarily me.
• My reason for pointing to the evolution and history of life articles is the former is Featured and the latter is Good. That means something must have been done right with their sizeable leads, and Abiogenesis is a very similar article.
• As for WP:LEAD, I do my best to comply with the Manual of Style. WP:LEAD in a nutshell says, "The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." This entire quote lends support to the current lead: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."

The lead in Abiogenesis is very adequate and complies with the guidelines. I'm aware that you and I have our own opinions but ultimately the Manual of Style is above that. Cadiomals (talk) 00:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Marc Tessera's "Is A n+1 Definition of Life Useful?" Inappropriate?

I believe Marc Tessera added the section "Origin of Darwinian evolution rather than origin of life" which contains a cite to his own work "Is A n+1 Definition of Life Useful?". This article is labeled "Commentary" and has not been subsequently cited (perhaps not unexepected as it was published earlier this year).

As best I can tell this has already been rolled back a couple of times, although not necessarily for this reason. (This is my first wikipedia edit and I'm still learning how to navigate the deltas.) I've asked Marc in another forum (talk.origins) to revert this. Is there any reason I'm missing that it should not be reverted? Garamond Lethe (talk) 16:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I've reverted it as far to recent to establsh weight. It also appears to be self-promtional. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Dominus -- thanks, I appreciate the quick response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garamond Lethe (talk • contribs) 22:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Garamond Lethe is wrong when he asserts that I added the section "Origin of Darwinian evolution rather than origin of life": Decruft did it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marc Tessera (talk • contribs) 18:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

No. You added it on Feb. 2. Decruft partially reverted you and edited the section. Your additions have been reverted by several other editors, including User:Lindert, User:JonRichfield, User:Wdanwatts and me. If you want the material presented here, you will have to discuss it and get consensus for any addition on this talk page. You appear to have a conflict of interest, and seem to be using WP to promote your recent paper. Please familiarize yourself with WP policies and guidelines, including WP:V, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, WP:COI, WP:N, WP:NOT, WP:CON, WP:DE]] and WP:TE. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I am here to respond to a Third Opinion request on this matter. There is no question that Marc Teressa added the section in question, as evidenced here. I have not looked to see if this was the very first insertion of this section or who inserted it the last time it was inserted (it appears to have been reverted and reinserted several times) but there is no question that Teressa has done it at least once. As a side note to Teressa: As a newcomer, you may not be aware that the entire editing history of each article page and each user are publicly visible: see here for this article's history and here for your editing history. There is (almost) never any doubt about who did what at Wikipedia. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 19:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

In thruth there is no question that I took the initiative of proposing the section “Origin of Darwinian Evolution rather than Origin of Life”. However the final version was written by Decruft from my publications and accepted apparently by the editors who did not agree with my first versions. Well, formally, I agree I was likely wrong but is the question only formal? At the heart I think there is the following more important question: is the idea presented in the section in question worth scientifically speaking and could be presented in the chapter “Other models” which is dedicated to other and possibly new approaches? If no, then I was wrong. If yes, I think it is a pity to censure it.Marc Tessera (talk) 08:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. As to your question: is the idea presented in the section in question worth scientifically speaking. As best I can tell from scholar.google and from reading the paper, the "n+1" paper is a "Commentary" piece that's never been cited by a peer-reviewed publication. This tells me that other scientists working in the field don't value this paper, at least not yet (and the paper probably hasn't been out long enough to receive that kind of evaluation).

In contrast, look at the other papers that are cited in this article. The PAH-world hypothesis is probably a pretty marginal theory, yet García-Hernández's paper has already been cited 12 times and just came out in 2010. Hartman's 1998 multiple-origin paper has been cited 49 times. Both of these were peer-reviewed. That's not to say that peer-reviewed publication and lots of citations are sufficient for a theory to be included in an encyclopedia, but I do think it's a necessary condition.

In short, don't try to make an argument that you have a good theory. Make an argument that a lot of other people think you have a good theory.Garamond Lethe (talk) 05:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

hypothesis or theory

It seems to me that many of the places that the words hypothesis and theory are used in this article they are used interchangeably. I don't wish to step on any toes if i am incorrect and am not an avid user of the edit function in wiki so i hope someone who keeps this page up to date will look into it