Talk:Pseudoscience

Archives
Antiquity – Jan 2003 Jan 2003 – Jan 2006 Jan 2006 – Apr 2006 Apr 2006 – May 2006

"Archive Freedom"

[Note: this post copied from my User page ]

Are we supposed to take this seriously as a source:--> http://archivefreedom.org/

Claims there is some kind of "blacklist" in physics preventing certain physicists from publishing work. This clearly shows a grave misunderstanding of the scientific method. Anyone is free to publish -- as long as it is science. Overturning a paradigm will earn you fame, and if true, a theory will stand up to critical peer review.

All the website shows is that certain pseudoscientists have a bizarre conspiracy theory of science, and instead of doing science, pseudoscientists scream like children about how they are being "censored"? — Dunc|☺ 19:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The Website illustrates the "Identifying pseudoscience" item, "assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress their results". It is meant as an example, rather than a source, and I think the words describing it as such. Your description of the Web site seems confirm this? --Iantresman 20:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

At least one of the people mentioned Dr. Peter Rowlands is a university lecture at an in a physice department which has been given the top rating for research in the UK (5A). The transcript [1] indicates this is not just obvious cranks being excluded.

As to Anyone is free to publish, have you ever tried to get a paper published? Yes anyone is free to publish if your work fits with the agenda of the journal you target. Rejections are rife, there are many incidences of important work which has taken years and years to get published. For instance Galois's ground breaking work in group theory was rejected, basically because no one else understood it (and maybe because he had wound up the wrong people).

There is an important distinction between peer review and arXiv to which the website refers. arXiv is not a peer review journal, it is a repository of pre-prints appearing prior to aceptance in a journal. --Salix alba (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The Pseudoscience articles just mentions "conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress their results"[2]. arXiv is representative of the scientific community, and the Archive Freedom web site claims that arXiv is suppressing pre-prints. That seems to me to be illustrative of the article description? --Iantresman 18:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Galois' work was not really "rejected". In fact, several prominent mathematicians understood its significance and encouraged him, at various times, to submit it for publication. Parts of it would be published before his death, but the famous memoir (to which I believe you are referring), was not published during his lifetime...but that was due to various factors such as his reluctance to clarify his work and unforeseen events such as Fourier's death. The romantic view that Galois was a misunderstood genius is to a large extent a fiction set up by the writings of E.T. Bell. See Evariste Galois for more info. There are some good external links there on this stuff also. --Chan-Ho (Talk) 12:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for a new article

I think we may wish to have an article on mainstream science. This would serve as a good counterbalance and would be an excellent reference for articles that straddle the boundary between innovation and quackery (certain ecology ideas and psychoanalysis proposals come to mind). Any thoughts on this? --ScienceApologist 17:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

But how is that different from science? — Dunc|☺ 17:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

"Science" is a process. "Mainstream science" is an institution. --ScienceApologist 18:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Halton Arp publishes in "mainstream scientific" journals. Hannes Alfvén's "Plasma Universe" was peer reviewed by "mainstream science". Dilemma? --Iantresman 19:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. We can discuss the relationship between mainstream science and those who are "outside" mainstream science in an article on the subject. First we should decide whether we can write such an article. --ScienceApologist 19:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It seems unneccassery to me. Jefffire 19:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We could discuss such notions in the article itself, but I would be disappointed if you went to all that trouble, only to discover that "inside/outside" the mainstream is based on personal research, rather than objective criteria. Can you provide a couple of peer-reviewed sources that might clear up the matter?

Part of the reason I'm posting here is asking for people's input on the matter. Obviously resources from the article on the scientific community might be useful, but the proposed article is from a slightly different perspective. Currently, I have no resources, which is exactly why I haven't started writing the article.--ScienceApologist 01:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I'm increasingly thinking there needs to be a good article linking all the criticism of the science together. To me these seem to fall into two main camps

• Cricicism of the Scientific establishment, how the process of science is guided by the government funding and funding by specific interest groups (eg drug and oil companies). The impact of the establish journals giving prominence to certain modes of enquiry. For example: there is only one professor on complementary medicine in the UK; research on Medical cannabis has been severely limited; and then there is all the criticism of the Bush's administration especially in relation to climate change.
• Criticism of the scientific method. Can a reductionist approach be applied to all modes of enquiry cf Holism in science. Also there is the Thomas Kuhn paradigm view (in the end science is just another paradigm) and postmodernist critiques, especially Michel Foucault. Romanticism was an early critique.

There are plenty of good critiques out there. I saw The Golem: What You Should Know About Science [3] in a bookshop the other day and this seems to be a fairly notable critique, alas I did not buy it. --Salix alba (talk) 08:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ian's concerns about what constitutes "inside"

Per the suggestion of others, I've redacted irrelevant comments to their own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs) .

Who judges who is on the "inside", or what is considered "consensus"? According to the literature, a consensus of papers still considers comets to be dirty snowballs, and "2003 UB313" has less papers about it that Halton Arp has published on intrinsic redshift --Iantresman 19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant? You brought up the idea of "inside" and "outside" of mainstream science, and these question seem key to the article? How can the merit of an article be assessed if you're going to side-line some of the content. I haven't criticised your article suggestion at all, the least you can do is engage in the discussion. --Iantresman 09:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoarcheology

User:Kenosis, why do you want to remove pseudoarchealogy from the list? Can you explain your reasoning? When I compiled some watchlists dealing with pseudoscience, I had a large number which I thought of as pseudoarchaeology. ---CH 06:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

(Today in Pseudoarcheology: User:Kenosis tagged with a citation request {{fact}} all the items in the list which didn't have a reference; I untagged Pseudoarchaelogy as being defined as a pseudoscience, and he/she deleted it from the list entirely.) I think it may be better as a See Also than as an example, as is pseudophysics. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hillman and Arthur. I'm not wedded to that decision to remove. But my objective is twofold:

• (1) For the article to at least have reasonably credible citations, ideally multiple citations, for all the contents of that repeatedly controversial list. Pseudoarcheology (note the lack of a link from the common alternate spelling to date, for instance) is not well supported in this article on pseudoscience nor in the article on the topic of pseudoarcheology. I vaguely suspect there may be good reason for lack of citations for the term, as much of what is listed as pseudoarcheology is really speculation based on what we might call simply "archeology" (or "archaeology"), itself an often highly speculative business (not to even mention notorious forms of "skulduggery", private marketing of artifacts and other such "junk archeology").
• (2) To try to keep the length of the list somwhat under control with an occasional sweeping of marginal items. If you include pseudoarchaeology and pseudophysics, I can add pseudopsychology (a pet peeve of mine), someone else may start an article on pseudosociology (readily found in most bar-rooms), etc. I imagine there already exist other such items that already contain other folks' targets of ire in yet other articles on Wikipedia, and at some point in the expansion a case can easily be made for a pseudo-every-kind-of-science on the List of scientific fields.... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

But like I said, I'm not wedded to the edit, and found Arthur Rubin's choice to put it in "see also" to be a reasonable decision in this case... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Should Pseudoscience be merged with Religion?

--Greasysteve13 04:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the subjects are very different. Religion can be mentioned in the pseudoscience article though. Especially regarding religious beliefs. Some new pseudosciences are considered to be associated with new age or new alternative religions (eg, NLP, TFT, Energy Therapies, Dianetics) Bookmain 05:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Put dont all preachers present at least some unproved material as fact?--Greasysteve13 08:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, they're based on (a) different paradigms (b) one's based on faith, the other on not following rules. --Iantresman 09:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Its all faith.--Greasysteve13 09:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience can be faith-based, but it can also be based on industrial interests (as in the psuedo-science presented by the smoking industry). So, not the two articles should not by any means be merged. --Kristjan Wager 13:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's all a matter of consensus. This proposal needs a highly unlikely one: pseudoscience is generally seen as a negative label, while billions of people see the label "religion" as a positive one. What's more, even if you would be able to align editors (which means convincing editors writing for a religious POV that this merge is necessary), you can't ignore current use of the "pseudoscience" and "religion" categories. Information on (i.e. a tally of) current use is vital; an uninformed consensus is usually very shortlived, especially regarding a change that would impact many articles at once.

For new editors who may be wondering why this should be a matter of consensus:

• We can't answer the question by thinking about these categories (see WP:NOR). Wikipedia documents knowledge available from reputable reliable sources. The WP:NPOV policy compliance of content (including categorization) is safeguarded by means of the consensus process. We can argue about categories all we want, but in the end their use needs to conform to the NPOV policy as ensured by the consensus process.
• Categories often contain many articles, all of which will be changed somewhat if this proposal would be implemented. Existing categorization has already gone through many iterations of the information gathering and consensus processes. This has been a massive effort and its results cannot be disregarded. Before seeking consensus regarding the removing, renaming or merging of existing categories, one had better assess how they are used in practice. In this specific case I would say that categories are identical for practical WP purposes when the consensus process invariably puts articles in both. AvB ÷ talk 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe its a matter of pos or neg. One sign of pseudoscience is the use of obscurantist language, disguising itself as science, whilst trying to immunise itself against scientific testing (often under the mantra of holism). This makes it quite different from religion. Its also not really a matter of consensus. If an author states that E.G. primal scream therapy, is pseudoscientific, then it can be mentioned with proper attribution. If the same author also says it is a religion, then that seperate fact can be placed on the PST article with proper attribution. There may be some mention on the pseudoscience article, that some religions use pseudoscientific subjects according to (name, year, page number) authors. Bookmain 03:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I have a problem with much of your take on this. But we can't merge two subjects on the say-so of a single author. That would require both concepts to be equal in the eyes of just about the whole world. And contrary to what you're saying, consensus always has the last word. Consensus, WP style, does not decide whether an assertion is true; it decides whether the policies have been followed (especially the main policy WP:NPOV, where consensus decides whether or not the various POVs are given due weight). The reasoning behind this is that the consensus process is a practical method to represent the various POVs out there in the world (see WP:CON). (I've learnt to live with this reality of Wikipedia, but don't like it nearly as much as I like the WP:NPOV policy.) This means that some half of the editors will oppose such a merge simply because they do not want to associate (their) religion with something seen as negative. That is a lot of editors, ready to dig up and quote pages of major POVs voiced by notable people/etc. in reliable sources. In any case, my main point is that merging these two articles would radically influence the categories of the same name and even the NPOV policy itself, causing a backlash in the form of a swift reversion. (See also what links here.) The community has already given its verdict on this merge idea; just sample the overlap between the articles in Category:Religion and Category:Pseudoscience. AvB ÷ talk 11:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In general, pseudoscience is stuff claiming to be science that isn't. Somethings can be both religion and pseudoscience, such as some forms of creationism (especially intelligent design), but they are not by any means the same thing. JoshuaZ 04:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

So its only pseudoscience when someone has claimed it be science when it isn't? In this case religion is hardly ever been considered science because of the negative impact of the word science.--Greasysteve13 04:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

True enough. Some things can be in several categories. For example, Scientology can be in the science and religion categories, because it makes religious and scientific claims, and fits the bill for being a pseudoscience and a pseudoreligion.

As far as merging? Definitely not. -- Fyslee 04:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely No to merge. Almost completely different. Bubba73 (talk), 04:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay no merge. We've all reached the consensus that its only psuedoscience when someone has said its science when it isn't.--Greasysteve13 04:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In which case can I add Christian Science to the list of Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study?--Greasysteve13 05:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"If the shoe fits....", and it does.....;-) -- Fyslee 05:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay I'll add it. Its just that when you edit that section it tells you to discuss it on the talk page first... and I have.--Greasysteve13 07:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I oppose this addition. Despite its name, Christian Science seems to be just a religion and not a pseudoscience. I don't see adherents trying to overthrow existing scientific theories, though they do believe in healing-through-prayer. Nonetheless, I don't see this belief as being particularly pseudoscientific. Is every faith-healer also a pseudoscientist? I'd say not.

But Christian Science is Science based on the divinity of the Bible... how can this be scientific?--Greasysteve13 10:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it really portrayed as science in the same clear way that Scientology is? That's not so clear to me. I know it has "science" in the name. I know it's refered to as "divine science". But nonetheless I don't see believers claiming that their religion is a scientific theory as such. It seems to be just a religion to me. (Citations could prove me wrong.) Phiwum 11:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Caveat: I don't know much about Christian Science, so if you can show some evidence that adherents consider it a scientific theory, then I'll withdraw my complaint. But when they call it "divine science", that seems to be a rather different sense of "science" than is relevant here. Phiwum 10:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I just joined the discussion. I know quite a lot about Christian Science (it's my religion!) Christian Scientists have little interest in overthrowing or challenging mainstream science and they're not even that interested in measuring the results of CS, just in healing sick people. I'm not sure we are that interested in being up there with evolution or relativity either, though we don't have a major problem with either. Personally speaking I've relied on CS for more than thirty years and had many healings that I attribute to it, and in that time have used no medicine (apart from some associated with dental treatment). I became interested in CS because there was no successful medical treatment for a physical problem I had (they still haven't found one). All of that is "anecdotal" of course, but I'd rather be anecdotal and well than "scientific" and sick ;-)In principle though I think you could set up a method whereby the claims of CS could be falsified a la Popper. What you would need to do would be to take a group of people who relied exclusively on Christian Science and a comparable group who used no healing method whatever. Then you could compare their respective morbidity/mortality over a set period of time. (The contrasted group could not use medical means since that would simply compare the respective efficacy of CS and medicine.) Such an experiment would be difficult but not in principle impossible, and consequently CS passes Popper's criterion of falsifiability and should therefore be removed from the Pseudosciences category, apart altogether from the fact that I am asking with a smile :-)Thanks.81.108.23.116 21:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Good to hear from someone in the know. What you're saying tallies with the information in the Christian Science article. Since there is no (incorrect) claim of being human/naturalist science and/or the use of the scientific method, this is not pseudoscience. Actually I removed the cat yesterday since the article itself does not quote any sources, let alone a majority view, calling CS pseudoscience. By the way, although some editors brought this up here, (further) discussion should take place on the relevant talk page. AvB ÷ talk 23:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys. Just to reiterate; A subject does not have to be considered science by its adherents in order to be thought of as pseudoscientific. For the sake of this article, all that is required is a reliable view that concludes a subject is pseudoscientific. EG, Prof Smith considers David Icke's new technology of consciousness to be pseudoscientific. Bookmain 04:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Remember that a lot of quacks will concoct a whole set of comforting and easy to swallow theories, put new age neuromyths all over their literature, refer to themselves and each other as Dr. whassname, and use a multitude of obscurantisms that require a large glossary at the back of their bible. They will then state that they are not doing science, but are up to some kind of technology, spiritual development, religion, philosophy or epistemology. They do this to avoid being falsified empirically. These are all classic indications of pseudoscientific commercial developments and cults. Bookmain 04:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That controversial section again...

Look, I know that the list has seen some controversy and that the section title has been formed by long and tedious negotiations. But really: Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study? That title reflects its origins: something so awkward could only be formed by committee!

Is it possible to agree on a shorter, less awkward title? Frankly, I don't mind if the title is slightly controversial and folks have to read a sentence or two to understand what the section is about. It's better than having a title longer than a haiku. (Haiku? It's approaching epic proportions!)

How about: "Fields associated with pseudoscience"? It's not quite accurate: the association is really more allegation that they are pseudoscience. Some of the list items aren't fields but objects of study and so on. Nonetheless, it's an improvement over the current clunker and we have an introductory passage clarifying the list anyway.Phiwum 06:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Title of This Entry

Hi again :-) I think the problem is with the term "Pseudoscience". "Pseudo" has the connotations of false. As a Christian Scientist I think that the Christian Science religion might well have problems in acceeding to contemporary requirements re scientificity in terms of prediction, falsifiability etc. (though I've suggested above how this problem might be overcome). However, that doesn't mean it's false or "pseudo". As the roots of Christian Science are in the nineteenth century (pre-Popper etc.) I don't think it's fair to attach the term "pseudoscience" to it. BTW, could someone explain to me what the criteria of falsifiability would be regarding e.g. the theory of evolution? How well--in practice--would a graduate student fare in one of the mainstream universities if he/she wanted to set up an experiment as part of their thesis project, whereby the theory of evolution might be falsified? (I should state here that Christian Scientists are not biblical literalists and personally I don't have any problem with neo-Darwinism--in fact it's fair to say that the fundamentalists dislike Christian Science probably as much as they do the theory of evolution!)81.108.23.116 08:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi 81.108.23.116 and thanks for your input. We really have no need to go into deep philosophical debate over the nature of science or pseudoscience. If a view is notable and reliable, then it can be included. Our goal here is not necessarily to keep everyone happy (though its a nice utopian ideal), but the goal is to present information on what pseudoscience is, and what certain notable views are on which subjects have been considered pseudoscientific. I understand that people may object to their interests being associated with pseudoscience, but Wikipedia guidelines do state that objectionable subjects should be tackled. This is all very easy as long as you are willing to be an editor, rather than an interested party in the particular subject you are trying to edit. Bookmain 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)