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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.215.246.197 (talk) at 23:01, 4 July 2013 (→‎RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Dual

"Dual Diagnosis" has been used to refer to the occurrence of Mental Illness in people with Mental Retardation (nowadays called Intellectual Disability, Learning Disability, Developmental Disability, etc) at least since the founding in 1983 of the National Association for the Dually Diagnosed: see their website at www.thenadd.org. This usage is generally not known to mental health professionals, who typically consider learning disabled people to be immune to mental illness. The anonymous editor who excised this meaning of the term from the main article a fortnight ago obviously shares that belief. NRPanikker (talk) 01:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of vernacular, how does this article's term differentiate from co-occurring disorders? Are they the same? JoeSmack Talk 21:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, in general it is not usual to speak of someone with two medical conditions as having a "dual diagnosis." However in psychiatry more pains are taken to bring all the phenomena observed under one heading. The term "dual diagnosis" can be used to refer to people with mental retardation who develop a mental illness. The expression seems to have been introduced because separate training leads many mental health workers to assume that the two conditions cannot coexist, or to be so struck by the presence of mental retardation as to be unable to see the mental illness: this is the converse phenomenon, known as "diagnostic overshadowing." It can be seen in the main article, where another editor removed the account of this condition, through inability to accept the existence of intellectual diability at all, and substituted the other use of the phrase, for the co-existence of mental illness with substance abuse. NRPanikker (talk) 23:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citations badly needed... not a wikipedian so don't know how to insert the several dozen flags this article needs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.254.89 (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The Canadian Mental Health ASsociation (CMHA) defines dual diagnosis as meaning a developmental disability and a mental illness and says this is the dominant meaning in Canada, whereas in the US it refers to addiction and mental illness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.199.227 (talk) 14:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'substance misuse disorder'

You know the prevalence section opens with talk of a 'substance misuse disorder'. Never heard of that one - maybe it's from the DSM III? I'm not that young at 25 am I? Both links do not mention a misuse disorder in the abstract, only an abuse/dependence disorder as the DSM IV actually has spelled out... JoeSmack Talk 04:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are psychiatric disorders medical diseases?

Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. [citation needed] There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition requiring psychiatric drugs. [citation needed] This is a controversial position to publish uncited. NAMI [1] states the opposite in the first line of its definition of "Mental Illness." NAMI makes this claim without proof by just comparing "Mental Illness" to diabetes, there are many lab tests for diabetes to confirm diabetes is a medical disease. NAMI gets a significant portion of its funding from pharmaceutical companies, up to 75%.[2][3]

  1. ^ http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=about_mental_illness
  2. ^ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/10/22/nami-nearly-75-percent-of-funding-from-pharma/
  3. ^ http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_NAMI/Governance/Major_Foundation_and_Corporate_Support/WebRegistry1Q2009.pdf


I moved this section out of the article, because it is rather like a discussion. Please, whoever worked on this text, discuss here! Lova Falk talk 17:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic section (split?)

The section titled "Overview" is not about what the rest of the article covers. Per WP:NOTDIC, articles cover topics, not terms, so having an article cover two topics that happen to have the same term is not appropriate. I don't know if there is an existent place for this tangential information, but if there isn't then we should split this into two separate articles. I'm not sure what the titles should be, we might do co-occurring disorders and dual diagnosis with clarifying hatnotes to help disambiguate. We could also have both of them called "dual diagnosis" but with disambiguating parentheticals on both (with a subsequent disambiguation page) or on just one. Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 21:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are quite right, and, to confuse matters even more, as far as I understand, in DSM-5 some diagnoses will be moved to different axes. I think I would prefer both to be called dual diagnosis with parentheticals but I can't come up with a good idea for short descriptions. Lova Falk talk 09:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just chopped a fair bit from the overview section, as it really wasn't relevant or useful. I think if there is going to be a section or an article on concurrent axis I and II disorders, it should give information on the interaction between the two, rather than simply a) this is what happens with axis I, and b) this is what happens with axis II. There is some mention later in the article about integrated treatment for concurrent mental and substance use disorders, which is a useful type of information to include (I'll beef that up a bit when I have more time). From what I've read, it sounds like dual diagnosis is an older term that is being replaced by co-occurring disorders (more American usage) or concurrent disorders (more Canadian usage). Ashleyleia (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article. On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1.. Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565. I provided a lengthy response to the previous editor who eradicated this area of text. In the response I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references (some tertiary) and left the three that are included in the text now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article. On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1.. Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565. I provided a lengthy response to the editor Lova Falk who previously eradicated this area of text and whom you are now assisting. Lova Falk stated that she reinstated the text but I do not see it in the article. So I suppose you removed it after she put it back. Is that so? In the to response to Lova Falk, which you indicated that you read, I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references some tertiary) and left the three reference that are included in the text that is now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again ' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3] 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Thank you!

Thank you for your help with Dual diagnosis. I just don't have the energy for this discussion, so I'm gone from that article. Thank you once more! Lova Falk talk 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC){{-} Absolutely! I definitely know the feeling. Glad to be of assistance, and I hope you're doing well! Firecatalta (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC) 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again[edit]

' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3] 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed

I removed the following text from the article:

Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[16] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[17] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [18]
 16. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca
17. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca
18. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009

My reason for removing this text is that the treatment section is a general section with broad information. No doubt that this is a nice approach, but it is way too specific for this article. This is an encyclopedia for the whole world. I know a similar initiative in a treatment center in Sweden, and I guess they exist throughout the world. Please, before putting this back into the article, tell us why Sciacca's approach is notable. With friendly regards, Lova Falk talk 10:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY to "I removed the following text from the article"

This Sciacca text that was removed comprises the history of dual diagnosis treatment (not just a nice model); it is an important element and the foundation of dual diagnosis treatment and integrated programs. Sciacca designed and initiated the first treatment interventions and the initial model of integrated treatment when there was "no" treatment available anywhere for people who suffered symptoms of dual disorders, co-occurring mental illness and substance disorders (rather they suffered neglect); this was accomplished by Sciacca and colleagues at the New York State Office of Mental health. Official reports such as the New York State Commission on Quality of care's scathing report documented the downward spiral into homelessness and incarceration for clients who had every right to treatment but in many cases were ostracized. This did not only occur within New York State, or the United States, it was an international problem. All systems and services of care were discrete, either mental health or substance disorders. No one had integrated treatment for co-occurring mental illness and substance disorders in 1984.

TIME magazine became aware of the commission's report, the national statistics by Talbott, the Sciacca model and the New York Statewide initiative and published an article about all of it in 1987. This work began in 1984 and was well developed by 1987. A variety of small publications noted this work and then it became more public and reached larger journals. Seminars, lectures and workshop presentations of the Sciacca model were requested and presented. This was another forum for educating large groups of providers in various levels of detail.

In response to your wondering about a program you know about in Sweden, please note that administrators, psychiatrists and psychologists from Sweden visited Sciacca in New York where they requested and were presented a seminar on dual diagnosis treatment. As a result, they invited Sciacca to Stockholm where she provided training for approximately one week to a very large number of treatment providers from a variety of disciplines including administrators who were invited by the initial group. This training consisted of dual diagnosis client profiles and their specific treatment needs, dual diagnosis treatment and dual diagnosis program development. This model was manualized and included all clinical materials, treatment and program materials. It would not be surprising if dual diagnosis programs in Sweden were initiated through that training. The training was held in Sabbatsbergs hospital.

Initially when Sciacca's work was written into the Wikipedia dual diagnosis piece there were many references to document the work through SAMHSA (the workforce competencies report by Sciacca) and numerous initiatives across states, cities, in various communities that adapted this approach. Someone edited the original version of the Wikipedia text and removed many of the references. Key elements of the Sciacca best-practices model have evolved into evidence-based approaches and remain the best practices of today - one in particular "integrated treatment." This was a very difficult and laborious approach to accomplish. Very few people accepted the premise that their system would now be responsible for client' symptoms that had been designated to another system since their beginning. It took stamina, persistence and indirect approaches to achieve this initially and then to nurture the integrated premise along to acceptance on a large scale - one treatment program at a time; one community at a time, one city at a time, one state at a time, one country at a time and throughout numerous systems. More than a nice approach - dual diagnosis treatment represented major change from a systems perspective and from the perspective of the individual practitioner. Education, training, practice and acceptance were implemented initially and went on to become essential elements of this change. We are still far from providing the amount of services that are needed for many who so sorely need them.

The few sentences that were left in the Wikipedia piece that you have since removed do not adequately describe the extent and intricacies of this initial work: for example what integrating systems really entails; what the process of educating and training providers in this area is about and how to do so initially with resistant participants; what developing treatment for people who had co-occurring symptoms entailed -notably for people who had never had these symptoms treated before. Every element needed to be created, designed, tested until a working model emerged. Clinical and program materials such as screening, assessment, interventions, outcome measures needed to be designed and implemented; staff curriculum and training; program implementation strategies and materials. All of this was new, all of it required new initiatives.

Dual Diagnosis is a young field and its history needs to remain in tact; no history should ever be rewritten or eliminated. This Sciacca segment needs to be put back into the Wikipedia dual diagnosis piece. It could have more references and perhaps more detail - there are many references to be drawn upon. A good author or editor could perhaps do this historical segment justice and convey the importance of the transitions and major change needed to accomplish dual diagnosis treatment and integrated care. It should be given its proper place in the history of this field. (108.58.58.122 (talk) 06:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

24.215.246.197 (talk) 00:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! Thanks for providing so much information on the background of Sciacca and her contributions. Could you provide a reliable secondary or tertiary source in which the author discusses Sciacca's notability as a founder of treatment(s) for dual diagnosis (or point us to where that information is located in the sources currently provided)? I think that would help indicate whether and where to reintegrate this information into the article. Firecatalta (talk) 02:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi 24.215.246.197. I undid my edit and Sciacca is back in. I tried to formulate a response to you but I just don't have the energy. I'll remove this article from my watchlist. Lova Falk talk 17:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"External references"

The section "External references" (which actually was not so much a references section as a Further reading section) had grown out of control, so I have moved it out of the article into this talk page. Please see Wikipedia:Further reading and put only entries that are topical, reliable and balanced, and please, keep the section limited in size. "Wikipedia is not a catalogue of all existing works." Please, if you add an entry back into the article, motivate why. Thank you! Lova Falk talk 11:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN.

With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article.

On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them:

1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula.

  • This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report.

Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50.

  • Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work.

Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999.

  • This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to

service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred.

Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986.

  • This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work.

The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites.

Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58.

  • Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally.

Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1..

Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565.

I provided a lengthy response to the previous editor who eradicated this area of text. In the response I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references (some tertiary) and left the three that are included in the text now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there,
Here are Wikipedia's definitions of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources that will hopefully clear up any confusion about how to classify a source, as well as which type of sources to use: How to classify sources. A basic rule of thumb is that a source in which someone is writing about herself is primary. A source in which someone is writing about someone else, about general information, or about an event that she was not directly involved in, is secondary. A source that discusses one or more secondary sources is tertiary. All the current sources for this article are secondary or tertiary, in that the authors are not discussing themselves. A source written by Scaccia, if used to discuss scientific information, would be secondary; a source by Scaccia, if used to discuss Scaccia, would be primary.
As you know, all information in wikipedia articles must be notable. Here are guidelines for how to tell if someone or something is notable, and therefore appropriate to include in a wikipedia article: Guidelines for Notability. Establishing notability requires secondary or tertiary sources. Once notability is established using these sources (i.e. not written by the author), then we can use primary sources to elaborate. However, the three sources for the Scaccia section were all primary -- that is, the information was about Scaccia, and the sources were written by Scaccia.
Before going any further with my reply, does that make sense? WP guidelines can be confusing at first, so I want to make sure we're on the same page before I keep writing. Firecatalta (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

From the descriptions you have given this is what I understand. A primary source is an author writing about his or her own work or an article about his or her area of work that he or she authors. If this is correct there are more than a few primary source references in the dual diagnosis article. You asked for secondary or tertiary sources for the dual diagnosis history text - the work of Sciacca. I have provided you with both of those. If you would like me to go over them and determine which ones are secondary and which are tertiary I can do that for you. For example: The 1998 SAMHSA -federal report is tertiary for example - it discusses a number of areas of Sciacca's initiatives - family programs, integrated care, training curricula, workforce development, etc. Sources come from book chapters, journal articles, and other publications, references are included for each area discussed. The Minkoff article would be secondary, he writes about Sciacca's work and references it in his broader article. The Gigliotti article ( a real historical piece) is tertiary; The commission examined many areas. Their initial report described dually diagnosed cients without treatment "The Multiple Dilemmas of the Multiply Disabled. There discovery of Sciacca's work led them to examine it and scrutinize it in comparison to their previous discoveries. Their reports on the Sciacca initiative addressed many areas; and they detailed each of them. What needs to be understood here in this very early work there was no body of literature to draw upon. Are we on the same page?24.215.246.197 (talk) 23:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sciacca removed again

' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3]

1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca
2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca
3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009
24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Sciacca K (1996). "On Co-Occuring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development". American Journal of Orthopsychiatry. 66 (3).
  2. ^ Sciacca K Thompson CM (1996). "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism MIDAA". The Journal of Mental Health Administration. 23 (3): 288–297.
  3. ^ Sciacca K in Brown-Miller A, ed (2009). Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations (Chapter 3 of the Praeger International Collections on Addictions). Westport, CT: Praeger. pp. 161–188. {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help)
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