Talk:Six-Day War/Archive 11

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Let us clear the air here

Hello to all the regular Editors who have obviously worked for years on this excellent article.

I need to say a few things, as the posts on the previous section appear to be attacking me. I may be reading it incorrectly, but that is my impression at this point.

• I have never attempted to get involved with this area of WP, but I thought I would give it a shot, as I have an interest. A non-POV interest. Do not make too much of my username, although I do admire "weapons systems" that paradoxically are designed to protect life.
• I sense that you appear to think that I am a "sockpuppet" or a "meatpuppet", whatever that actually is. (It conjures up unpleasant imagery). I am an Ed with about 13 months experience, and in my modest way, I have contributed to the project. I am still on a steep learning-curve re the technical side of WP, and I have difficulty in putting sources onto my mainspace Eds. I am actually oddly scared of doing it. However, my grasp of RS and other permissible or unpermissible usage of mainspace is rather good.
• I reverted an edit earlier which appeared to me to be -while well sourced- had no place in the lede, which should be as concise as possible. My logic was that the material is duplicated in the article main body, and it merely cluttered the lede. I therefore undid it, with a perfectly clear explaination in Ed reasons. If this edit somehow screwed something up, I apologise. Nor am I aware of the history of that materials' insertion and history. I only put T6DW on my watchlist 3 days ago, or just under that.
• It is small wonder that many Eds choose not to contribute to controversial subjects, including I/P and Falkland Islands dispute, not to mention India/Pakistan. I came here in good faith, and will continue to contribute according to the tips given me above in the previous topic. It will be based on reliable sources and a NPOV bias.
• Other purely article - related issues, including the "civilian" tag, can be discussed when I get my shit together and provide sources.
• I would like to contribute. I do not edit war. I actually "get" the project. At least 1 of my barnstars is cited to my "diplomacy". Thanks for reading. Cheers.Irondome (talk) 02:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Irondome. thanks for your contributions to the topic area. AFAIK none of the above discussion was directed towards you. What we are really debating here is how to deal with sockpuppet edits once they have been identified and blocked through WP:SPI. In this case Elirhann Oraz89 has been blocked as a sockpuppet of AJH and the dispute is over how to handle the edits he made to the page. It's probably something that we should have a centralised discussion about in the topic area so we can agree some sort of best practice for dealing with edits of exposed SP's rather than keep having ad hock edit wars/disputes every time a new SP is exposed. 20:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I have been reading the intervening comments since I posted the above, and apologise for sounding paranoid. I am beginning to understand the lines of argumentation here. I will certainly not cause disruption or unwittingly restore dubious content, etc. Cheers. Irondome (talk) 20:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I second the idea that we open up a formal discussion. If anything this tiff has been useful for clarifying a notable problem. As to working I/P articles, it's quite simple and immensely difficult. Best practice suggests that we try to source everything to academic works by specialists on each topic (via a library, personal stores, or google books etc.) (b) there are at least two competing narratives, Israel and Palestine here, and all articles must strictly seek to give both narratives equal weight per WP:NPOV; (b) writing is generally sloppy. Take the lead here, e.g.

Syrian artillery attacks against Israeli civilian settlements in the vicinity of the border followed by Israeli responses against Syrian positions in the Golan Heights and encroachments of increasing intensity and frequency into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border,

Aside from 'civilian settlements' (see Zero above, this is quite complicated technically and as it stands, insists that Israeli citizens were targeted rather uniquely. (i) generally, all conflict articles favour using the word 'response' in accounts of Israeli actions. One learns to carefully note from such usage how the narrative is being 'spun'. (iii) here the sentence has it that Syria kept shooting at civilians, and Israel 'responded' (self-defence); 'Israeli responses against' governs both 'Syrian positions' and 'encroachments' grammatically, which means that the 'encroachments of increasing intensity in the DMZ' were Syrian forays, not as the text and history says, Israeli encroachments. What the writer meant was to allow the adjective 'Israeli' in 'Israeli responses' to govern 'encroachments', neglecting to realize that the syntax actually is ambiguous and allows the sentence to be read in the opposite way.

It's rather hard work here at times. It's not so much editors that are intimidating, but the quantity of work required to make the article, informative, neutral and readable, and comprehensive (you'd never guess from the article that one of the fears inducing Israel to make a preemptive strike was fear that the Egyptian airforce might attack the illegal Dimona nuclear power plant and destroy Israel's atomic bomb project, which was a major threat to Egypt.(Ami Gluska,The Israeli Military and the Origins of the 1967 War: Government, Armed Forces and Defence Policy 1963–67, Routledge, 2007 pp.34-5,76,112-113,123-4,126, 128ff.)(Of course now their fear is that Iran might secure an illegal atomic bomb capacity). etc.etc.etc. Nishidani (talk) 21:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed posting. It all helps. Cheers Irondome (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyedits

In the subsection headed "Arab": "As a result of the war, a wave of Palestinians was displaced. An estimated 300,000 Palestinians left the West Bank and Gaza, most of whom settled in Jordan."

I don't think the phrasing to the effect that a "wave" was "displaced" is good English - better to say that as a result of the war, 300k Palestinians were displaced from et etc. Also, were they actually settled in Jordan, or did they become refugees there? (I.e., were they given Jordanian citizenship or otherwise absorbed into the Jordanian population?) PiCo (talk) 02:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a technical problem with any choice of terms ('displace'/'refugee'), aside from the figures which, in the article, are rubbery.

• 'in the light of the 1967 war when approximately 370,000 Palestinians were expelled or otherwise displaced from the West Bank and Gaza and moved into Jordan. Most Palestinians made homeless during the 1967 war were legally considered "displaced persons," not refugees. Interestingly, 113,000 Palestinians are classified as both refugees and displaced persons. These were Palestinians expelled from their homes in what became Israel in 1948, generally settling in the West Bank-and therefore classified as refugees- who were exiled a second time in 1967, thereby qualifying as displaced persons as well. In sum, the 1967 war produced approximately 260,000 displaced persons and an additional exodus of 113,000 Palestinians already defined as refugees.' Doug Suisman, Steven Simon, Glenn Robinson,C. Ross Anthony, Michael Schoenbaum,The Arc: A Formal Structure for a Palestinian State,Rand Corporation ‎2007 p.82

Those that finished up in Jordan are classified differently depending from where they were expelled. Jordan classifies refugees from Gaza as displaced persons from the Gaza Strip,with minimal rights, to distinguish them from refugees from the West Bank who, in 1967, had and retained Jordanian citizenship. One could also add to this section the fact that:-

• 400 square kilometres were expropriated from internally displaced Palestinians (IDPs)immediately after '67.Terry Rempel,'International Protection and Durable Solutions,'Nur Masalha, (ed.) Catastrophe Remembered: Palestine, Israel and the Internal Refugees,Zed Books, 2005 pp.260-290, p.269Nishidani (talk) 15:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)