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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mccrex (talk | contribs) at 18:27, 3 February 2014 (→‎Additional 12th Man history). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome Randolph Duke

A cup of warm tea to welcome you!

Hello, Randolph Duke, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! NtheP (talk) 15:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

12th man

Hi, the reference you trying to add is incomplete - that's why is come out looking wrong. It looks like you trying to use one of the {{cite}} templates but not specifying the full details. If you are going to use a url in the citation (not mandatory for a paper source then it's best to use the fullest view of the document possible. As it turns out the entire series of The Iowa Alumnus is available in full on the Iowa university website - I changed the reference to that url instead. NtheP (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply] 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.132.44.241 (talk) 00:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phrasing with relation to Texas A&M

ok, let's chat about this here,

  1. This whole "10 years" stuff really needs to go because it was really much closer to 9 (9 years and ~3 months). It's simply inaccurate and misleading. "Nearly a decade" would be more accurate, yet vague enough to allow people to draw their own conclusions.
  2. Realize that Iowa's phrasing refers to the fans in 1912. Texas A&M's referred to an individual student, E King Gill. So there is at least a difference between the events and it should be annotated.
  3. Iowa rightly used the term first (at least in US college football), and I think we've captured that essence. But it specifically mentioned the "12th" man, not the "twelfth" man. I realize this is a minor distinction, but worth noting.
  4. Lastly, you're source was never widely quoted or circulated. While I'm sure others made a passing reference to the "twelfth man" earlier than that (via word-of-mouth such as between two patrons at a football game) or any other forebearers of the moniker, Texas A&M was the first to have it widely publicized and actively use it.
  5. Adding "it's never been ruled on in a court of law" is not notable as the vast majority of copyright infringement/trademark violations occur and are settled out of court.

Accordingly, I've changed the article again (as have others). If you have any additional changes to make that fall under the aforementioned categories, could we please discuss them first? Buffs (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need to email me unless you really want to, you can just respond here. This is a collaborative effort, so public discussion is encouraged. I won't hide anything I've done here on WP.
In response to your changed (and I'm assuming you did them as the IP, you're spot on. Those claims are not backed up by sources and you were correct in removing them. Excellent work.
In any case, welcome to Wikipedia. Buffs (talk) 14:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More

The problem with what you've cited is synthesis with respect to what you've stated. This is explicitly prohibited.

Sure, the DMN referred to the longhorns fans as the 12th man in 1935, but that does not mean "the term was frequently used to describe football fan bases in the 1920s and 1930s." or "Thus, the phrase was so common, sports writers were not only using the term 12th Man to refer to the fan base of Texas A&M but also to that of the University of Texas, the hated rival of the Aggies." You are drawing a conclusion based on a single source, that doesn't mean the phrase was "so common", merely that it was used in this instance. There is also a strong undertone here where you seem to be digging at the Aggies at every turn. It isn't necessary or appropriate.

Accordingly, I've removed the synthesis paragraph, though the source is certainly useful and has been kept.

The other section was removed because it was an article written in 1992, not 1918. It gives the impression that the terminology was applied in 1918...which it most certainly was not. This section is about the origins of the term, not every instance where it was used. Accordingly, I've removed it. Buffs (talk) 15:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Additional 12th Man history

It is important when writing of history of a tradition or custom to speak of how it evolved over time. In the instance of the 12th Man, most of what has been written is reflective accounts, not contemporaneous accounts. For example, the Dallas Morning News doesn't even mention E. King Gill until an article in 1942. The sportswriters covering the game do not mention anything about the Aggie team being down to 11 men or Gill coming from the stands. Lacking a 3rd party account of the events prior to the DMN article in 1942, we must accept the events as set forth in the article as the historical record.

With respect to how the phrase was used over time, ignoring reflective accounts is intellectually dishonest. If an article was written in 2012 using interviews with individuals having first hand knowledge of past events, the accounts of those having first hand knowledge have to be accepted as historical record unless further research is discovered that indicates the events happened otherwise. Again, there are no rd party accounts to support any of the E.King Gill story prior to 1942. The reflective story of the 1918 football game (titled "12th Man") is illustrative, if for no other reason, to show how people who have been associated with various football teams have been referred to as their team's 12th Man. If necessary, I can change the section to mention a 1926 use of the term to refer to an individual connected with the Vanderbilt football team, but I found the story of the 1918 game more historically interesting.

For the record, I am not trying to take a dig at TAMU. I am merely trying to update an encyclopedic reference which, prior to my efforts, was factually incorrect in many aspects. Nothing I have presented has lacked reputable 3rd party support. What we seem to be differing on is how the information should be presented. Any assertion the information have added should not be presented must be rejected as failing to include various aspects of the historical record in an encyclopedic reference is intellectually dishonest. It is historical fact that the DMN referred to the fan bases of TAMU and UT as "12th Men" in 1938 needs to be included to show the historical record of how the term was used. The fact that an individual who played in the 1918 football game was called the 12th Man must be included.

The problem with the page when I first found it was that it was historically inaccurate and created a false impression that the term 12th Man was both originated by Texas A&M in 1922 and that it has been predominantly applied to Texas A&M from 1922 until today. Updating the historical record with respect to the origination of the phrase and the background/ actions of E. King Gill seem to have been settled by addition of earliest 3rd party accounts from reputable sources. The information on how the phrase has been applied over time is what seems to be in question. Any suggestions as to how the 1938 DMN article showing the term was applied to both Texas A&m and University of Texas are welcome, as are suggestions how the use of the "12th Man" article to describe the 1918 football game.

A point-by point response (This will take some time)
  • "It is important when writing of history of a tradition or custom to speak of how it evolved over time."
    I concur
  • "In the instance of the 12th Man, most of what has been written is reflective accounts, not contemporaneous accounts. For example, the Dallas Morning News doesn't even mention E. King Gill until an article in 1942."
    That's not exactly relevant regarding newspapers.
  • "The sportswriters covering the game do not mention anything about the Aggie team being down to 11 men or Gill coming from the stands."
    play-by-play coverage basically didn't exist in the day. Just because it wasn't mentioned in the articles you found doesn't mean it didn't happen. Christine Michael was ejected from the last A&M football game, but that didn't make most of the coverage because it wasn't deemed notable at the time.
  • "It is historical fact that the DMN referred to the fan bases of TAMU and UT as "12th Men" in 1938 needs to be included to show the historical record of how the term was used."
    It is indeed a fact, but if the use of the term was as ubiquitous as you claim, then it isn't notable.
  • "The fact that an individual who played in the 1918 football game was called the 12th Man must be included."
    No, it doesn't "need" to be included. I see nothing that was even used to describe the person included here until 1992, so it doesn't seem to be part of the formative history of the term. We aren't going to include every utterance of the term over the years.
more to follow Buffs (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is very important that the DMN did not mention E. King Gill until 1942 because this is the first known 3rd party account of the events surrounding his actions on Jan 2, 1922. While other versions of what transpired that day have been presented, there is no historical record earlier than 1942 that has been presented, so the versions such as he was a member of the team who had left to play basketball and was in the press box spotting for the announcer must be rejected until a reputable third party account is presented for discussion. the 1942 third party account I have used is that of the DMN, the paper of record of the State of Texas in both 1922 and 1938 and is recognized as credible.

That no contemporaneous account exists of the team being down to 11 players, that Gill was in the press box spotting players and that at the end of the game only Gill was left standing on the sideline as an available substitute is highly important. Considering the importance of the game, one would reasonably believe if the outcome was in the balance and the game would have been lost with a single additional injury (without Gill's presence) these rather momentus circumstances would have been noted by at least one sportswriter in attendance. Also, Gill was supposedly in the press box, sitting amongst the sportwriters when supposedly he was summoned to the field. Again, sitting within eyesight of he sportswriters and being called to save the day would reasonably have been mentioned by one of the sportwriters if indeed it happened. Lacking any citation whatsoever for this version of the events having the 1942 version of the events that Gill had tried out for the team but hadn't made the varsity team and that he was in the stands, not the pressbox, we have no other historical record to rely on so the pressbox/ last man standing version has to be set aside for the version as set for in the 1942 article. Also, as the 1942 article sets forth that Bible called Gill down because an additional injury would leave the team without a substitute backfield player, without a reputable third party account of just how many players were in fact on the sideline, we cannot extrapolate the lack of replacements at one position meant no other players were available to substitute for any other position.

As things stand, we have no contemporaneous third party account of the actions of E. king Gill on January 2, 1922. We have to assume the stories of his activities were created sometime after January 3, 1922 when contemporaneous reports of the game were entered into the historical record. It would be helpful if someone at TAMU would provide what they believe to be the earliest known reputable third party account of the actions of E. King Gill from which the version of events originally on this page when I found it were gleaned. My understanding is that someone has contacted Jason Cook at TAMU requesting a citation to the version used by the university to establish the version on their website but Mr. Cook simply has ignored all such requests.

The fact that the DMN used the term to refer to the fan bases of both Texas A&M and University of Texas is important as it provides evidence to the assertion that the phrase "12th Man" was not predominantly used to refer to one particular institution throughout the history of the phrase. Remember where we started the edits of this page. Before the inaccuracies were addressed the impression was created that the phrase was originated by one institution and the discussion focused on the use of the term by one particular institution. To provide the historical record of the use of the phrase, it is important to accurately show where the historical record shows the phrase was originated, how it was used over time and how it is used currently. Failing to include information showing how it was used over time when that evidence is available would be intellectually dishonest. At the very least, it must be pointed out that in the 1920s and 1930s the phrase was not applied exclusively to any one school's fan base. If this is established as historical record (which it has been) then it is necessary to support the statement with a reputable third party account, which O have done.

I fully understand that there is a version of events in circulation where Texas A&M originated the phrase, that E. King Gill was the last man standing on the sideline and thenceforth the student body of Texas A&M was known as the 12th Man. However, the historical record that we are working from in this reference page does not support such a version of events. If Jason Cook, or anyone at Texas A&M can provide reputable third party accounts of events that add to the historical record available to us, those accounts would be more than helpful. Absent additional information, we are obligated to rely on the historical record we have available at the moment.

As for inclusion of the 1992 article discussing the 1918 game, it contains reflective first person accounts of an game where the events that occurred lead to an individual being referred to as the !2th Man. No such reflective first person account of the Jan 2, 1922 Dixie Classic is offered to corroborate any of the events of E. King Gill. What standard should be used here? We don't know when the Texas A&M version of events was first written and we do not know if it contained any first person accounts of the game or if the "facts" used to create that version of the story were as historically incorrect as those used to first write this wiki page. When did Texas A&M create its version of the 12th Man of their team 1925? 1937? We simply do not know.

I will re-insert the detail that while A&M has had a strong tradition of using the term 12th Man to refer to its fan base, in the 1920s and 1930s the term was not exclusively used to refer to the fan base of any one school. I will include the comment that the term was also used to refer to the fan base of University of Texas in 1938 and simply that Texas A&M and University of Texas were then rivals.

As the story of the 1918 game has first person accounts of the events and the named individual claimed he was the individual considered the 12th Man the inclusion of the story is similar to the inclusion of the comments of E. King Gill, an individual who was called the twelfth man of his team. The inclusion of the part about Mike Mesco gives proper support to the fact that many teams had individuals they considered to be their 12th Man and the term was in no way only applied to E. King Gill. Any first first person accounts of the events E. King gill you can provide to match those of Mike Mesco or Billy Sounders would be most helpful.

Randolph Duke (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2012 (UTC)Randolph Duke[reply]

One thing I may not have made clear. In developing the historic record, we have cited the first known use of the term by Univ of Iowa in 1912. In setting forth the history of the phrase it is significant the phrase was not applied exclusively to E. King Gill or to the fan base of Texas A&M during the 1920s and 1930s. The wiki page established the phrase was exclusive to Texas A&M in 1990 because the phrase was trademarked by Texas A&M in 1990. To fully set forth the history of the phrase, we need first fully establish the phrase was not exclusively applied to Texas A&M as late as 1938. Next we need to research the period between 1938 and 1990 and set forth the history of how and when after 1938 the phrase became exclusive to Texas A&M in 1990. Any information you have on that would be helpful and probably save me a lot of time doing research.

Randolph Duke (talk) 20:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)Randolph Duke[reply]

WP:TLDR. See article talk page. Buffs (talk) 20:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


It is also important to note that Randolph Duke is CHARLES M. SATTERFIELD, a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, first semester Fall 1980 last semester Fall 1984, BACHELOR OF BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION major PETROLEUM LAND MANAGEMENT Dec 22, 1984. Mr. Satterfield is obsessed with "correcting" the history of Texas A&M University, despite many of those corrections being incorrect, irrelevant, and/or wholly immaterial.

October 2013

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An identical note has been posted on the other party's talk page. Please work to resolve on the article's talk page. UW Dawgs (talk) 04:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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