Talk:Stack Overflow

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Criticism

The criticism entry has been erased from Stack_Exchange and Stack_Exchange_Network several times, although it is heavily founded, several StackOverflow users and sister sites host's are lobbying for it to be erased, please request admin intervention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.216.50.218 (talk • contribs • 87.216.50.218 WHOIS) 19 January 2011

I am surprised there is no criticism section. In my opinion the second highest ranking tag - Java has only ok contributors above 20k score, no stellar, great or notable programmers, no JVM engineers either. Comparing it to C# where some of the .Net designers actively participate indirectly supports bias. That's a personal opinion and it's not sourced. Bestsss (talk) 17:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have been maintaining the criticism section of the SE section and I have been intimidated by avid users of SE and SO numerous times, who happen to be well standing users in wikipedia as well. If anyone is interested to help support the articles, I would appreciate the support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yparjis (talk • contribs) 00:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't disagree with the Criticism section, citing a couple semi-anonymous forums falls pretty short of Wikipedia's standards. There must be some better references. Also, not sure how removing content deemed to irrelevant to the site's purpose is a criticism. (Full disclosure: I'm a Server Fault Moderator) ChristopherTStone (talk) 02:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the criticism section. The only citations present were links to the same blog post. I am sure there are valid criticisms of the site, their approach, and the community. However, the section as it stood was not salvageable; encyclopedic exploration of the subject requires less emotion, objective language, and better sources. 75.119.90.35 (talk) 16:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As of May 2009, Notability is in Question

This article uses primary sources and overall does not meet the guidelines set forth in WP:GNG. I did some searching for a short bit and it's currently difficult to remedy this problem, simply because there is not enough extensive and independent coverage of the material herein, at least that I could find. Your assistance in making this article notable is welcomed. CaptainMorgan (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a go over the next week or so. dottydotdot (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK-I don't really have much time to weave into the passage-so please, anyone do it for me!

From ReadWriteWeb, in December 2008 they received 3million visitors-ReadWriteWeb which makes it pretty notable.

I also have this link about it [1].

I'll see what others I can get as well. dottydotdot (talk) 16:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is notable enough, but the primary page? How about stack overflow the programming bug? Or at least the disambiguation page as the default?203.129.33.32 (talk) 04:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stack Overflow and Stack overflow are diferent articles, so this one it's not “default”. Svick (talk) 22:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've improved this article and added several independent references. David Condrey (talk) 04:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Article Name

Please guys reconsider the name of this article. "Stack Overflow" is not a good name as it is just differs in case with the original term: "Stack overflow". This page should be either named "Stack Overflow (Website)" or "stackoverflow.com". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.235.227.10 (talk) 08:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to my reading of WP:TITLE, Stack Overflow is the best title for this article. It does not clash with Stack overflow, Stack buffer overflow or Stack overflow (disambiguation). — LinguistAtLarge • Talk 18:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with LinguistAtLarge; there's no problem with the current name. --Jonik (talk) 18:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Letter case is a poor way to disambiguate discrete topics. Any search engine could tell you that. In a few cases the use of common nouns as proper nouns causes a collision. The titles of affected articles should make this more obvious, not less so. I support moving this to “…(web site)” as proposed above. ⤺ms.⁴⁵ 15:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am also a proponent of adding (Website) to the title. That way, it is clear what the content of the article is about just from reading the title text. A change in capitalization isn't very noticeable and there exists too many inconsistencies with what capitalization entails. Some titles are all caps even if they would not treated the same way in the middle of a sentence. --Dbmikus (talk) 03:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

I removed the {{prod}} template, because I think that SO is notable site. Some independent online sources I found that mention it:

Svick (talk) 12:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I fully agree with Svick on this. Stack Overflow is already extremely popular among programmers, and it has only been gaining momentum, so I am quite certain that, at this point, attempts to get the article deleted are doomed. --Jonik (talk) 18:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move sister sites to a separate page?

I'm not sure that the Stack Overflow page is the best place to talk about the sister sites. Could we either:

Move the sister sites to a separate page and refer to them briefly in this article (with a link to the new page)
Or move the sister sites to the Stackexchange page, again with a brief reference and a link

It just feels like a better fit. --Tdwrigh T 10:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Partisanship section recuringly censored by MICROSOFT vendors

The page has been 'protected' to actually prevent well-known information to be published regarding the MICROSOFT bias of Stackoverflow.

The text below has been censored by (check the IP addresses) companies like Amadeus SAS (France) who is a preeminent MICROSOFT partner (top level MSFT directors come from Amadeus):

In addition to use IIS and ASP.Net Stackoverflow is a MICROSOFT partner, receiving revenues from MICROSOFT advertising. This is creating a very oriented ambiance where everything that is not benefiting MICROSOFT is systematically dismissed or censored by 'super-users' who have full-power to edit or delete the posts and accounts of other users.

All the Stackoverflow 'super-users' (> 50k reputation) who censor posts and accounts are MICROSOFT C# developpers and book authors about C#, flagging anything that outdoes C# as 'SPAM' -and arguing that discussing IIS and C# is legitimate and informative but that discussing a (much faster) Free Web server using full ANSI_C scripts is "obvious advertising" (citation missing after the user account and all its posts have been censored).

The most obvious consequence of this filtering strategy is that C# accounts for many times more questions and replies than any other topic^[1].

But it also makes Stackoverflow a much less interesting Q&A site as the technical level of its contributors is reflecting the Web site's sponsor agenda, discouraging anything that promotes efficiency^[2] to better sell solutions designed to underperform in order to sell more hardware (which in turn benefits to MICROSOFT as Windows Server licenses are sold bundled with hardware)^[3].

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.76.67.129 (talk) 12:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]

^ http://stackoverflow.com/tags | C# dominates all othre Stackoverflow Tags... for a reason
^ http://g-wan.com/imgs/promoting_inefficiency.gif | Stackoverflow promoting inefficiency
^ http://g-wan.com/en_doj.html | The U.S. DoJ ruled that making MICROSOFT .Net benchmaks illegal harms end-users

The reason your additions have been deleted is because your sources don't support your claims at all. Where is any reference to marking non-C# questions as spam? How are responses to one question indication of (what you claim is) more general issue? The third reference doesn't even mention SO. All this is just your opinion. You are entitled to have it, but Wikipedia is not a place to publish it. Svick (talk) 13:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, one of your claims is provably false. I have looked at the profiles of the top 5 users on SO (many more have >50k reputation) and two of them (Alex Martelli and cletus) don't seem to be particularly interested in C#. Svick (talk) 13:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As explained (but you obviously are not interested in the facts) ALL the posts (and the user accounts) have been CENSORED on ACCUSATIONS of ADVERTISING -so NO REFERENCE IS AVAILABLE BECAUSE OF STACKOVERFLOW CENSORSHIP. And, despite this issue being the most recent, you moved it at the BOTTOM of the page (because it is a bit more a pain than 'notability issues'). Many Stackoverflow super-users are regularly claiming that they have no ties with MSFT to avoid abeing accused of any bias. There are evidences (were you ready to consider any) that super-users MAKE BLATTANT LIES regarding what they do, like SAM SAFFRON (a moderator and C# developement Satckoverflow contributor) who claimed during a conflict that he is a RUBY developer while in fact he works as a C# developer. The fact that you are FAKING to be willing to investigate this issue is raising the question of the neutrality of Wikipedia moderators... 83.77.19.243 (talk) 09:02, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is needed is not an evidence that this is happening, but a reliable source discussing this issue. And that could be available if this was actually happening.

I moved this thread to the bottom, because that's the way discussions are organized here (see WP:TOPPOST).

I don't care where or on what position these people work, because that is irrelevant. What's relevant here is how they act on SO, i.e. what kind of questions do they answer.

Also, I am no “moderator”. I am just an ordinary editor like yourself.

Svick (talk) 17:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are "only an Ordinary user" -of course. With a Wikipedia "User" page and the ability to lock-up (sorry, "Protect") a page against a properly documented MICROSOFT-BIAS (I provided links to Stackoverflow pages that illustrate the points -but you are only busy proving me wrong, not considering the references) that has been CENSORED by MICROSOFT 'Strategic Partners' (like AMADEUS SAS France, look at the IP addresses that CENSORED the article, caliming that it was vandalism while this is merely INFORMATION - the MSFT bias is well-known and obvious, given the obsequious Stackoverflow coverage on MICROSOFT.COM). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.202.109.107 (talk) 05:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your main point is that SO is censored and you didn't provide any reference for that. Just the fat that Microsoft technologies are among the most popular there doesn't prove that. Maybe C# programmers like to use the site more than, say, Linux/C developers? Or maybe C# is actually popular? Svick (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is complete nonsense. As a web developer I use exclusively non-MS technologies. As a desktop developer I use C# and the .NET framework. I have equal success getting answers about the non-MS stuff as I do the MS stuff. So what if the site owners take microsoft money? (If they even do that is...) Firstly, the site is effectively run and managed by the community. Secondly, what would they stand to gain by eliminating questions about the competition? Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. Tdwrigh T 10:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism (October 2011)

Criticism continues to be erased by Stack_Exchange moderators and employees citing no known notable figures having directed the criticism despite numerous claims from individuals in the community including issues being debated on their own website . ^[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uberholden (talk • contribs) 05:46, 24 October 2011

There's no lobbying. You're adding the section of another community - Super User as evident from the screenshot. Stack Overflow community is significantly different from Super User. And your bias in adding the notice is evident from the fact that you've added the "Criticism" the moment you were suspended from Super User. SathyaBhat (talk) 14:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As you list yourself as a StackOverflow moderator on your profile, I hardly consider you an unbiased source. Moderators from your community have been erasing criticism long before today. Crticism sections are quite common and the tone of this one somewhat balanced and sourced directly from one of the founders of the website in question.

I'm not a Stack Overflow moderator. SathyaBhat (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reversals are not done by Stack Overflow Moderators nor Stack Overflow employees. The section was added once you acknowledged a suspension and adds no value to the entry and it has already been confirmed that a blog entry is not a reliable source to quote. Furthermore, Super User is not Stack Overflow, and is simply a part of the network itself. I cannot see how adding a whole section on suspension adds any value to the Wikipedia article, or what is achieved by adding it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiagoZA (talk • contribs)

I'm a moderator of a StackExchange site (but not StackOverflow) and I consider the fact that this criticism was added by a banned member immediately after having been banned to be the ultimate red flag. It's like adding criticism to a page about traffic law because you got a ticket. An individual doesn't necessarily represent public opinion and if you've been banned from a StackExchange site, chances are you don't represent the opinion of the entire userbase. Enmaku (talk) 16:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, because that's like saying Rosa Parks wasn't entitle to have her opinion on things immediately after she was kicked off a buss. Would her opinions have been easier to digest if she'd taken some time to calm down first? Indubitably. But the fact that the above fellow is angry doesn't mean that he doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to an opinion, under the current context and scope of wikipedia. If people weren't allowed to write while they were angry, then some important subjects would receive almost no coverage. I'm sorry that you were having trouble with the above fellow, and genuinely hope that you are able to sort it out with him.

What evidence do you have that the entry has been added by a banned member? This discussion page about criticism has been modified over 2 years (since Dec. 2010) for a variety of issues ranging from censorship, microsoft bias & user suspensions. It's nothing new and I find the insistence of an lone "enraged" user weak. While the entry in question is poorly written, and its motives *possibly* questionable? Wikipedia does not dismiss criticism. A brief search on google turned up more than a few thousand critics. What is more worrying is the concerted efforts of Stackoverflow to remove criticism for almost 2 years and the zeal with which their moderators pursue it.

Agreed. Personally, I think that people wouldn't be taking the argument to Wikipedia if they were just a bit more forthcoming about tolerating, or even encouraging this sort of discussion on their own website

The problem is more that the 'criticism' is simply a description of perfectly normal community moderator tools. There is nothing remotely notable about that section. As soon as WP adds a similar "Criticism" section to the Wikipedia article itself, I'll buy that it's reasonable. Somehow I doubt that will happen. Actually... I'm going to edit out all of the rumor-mongering junk, and let's see if the section still stands on merits. -- Kiru

That's simply absurd. I'm also Stackoverflow moderator ( a part of StackExchange ), the user made several obscene comments on SuperUser and added more than a 100+ questions which were flagged as spam by myself and several others and then left mean and disparaging comments about each one of us. His IP has been banned and his account completely erased. He is now lashing out creating exaggerated wikipedia entries. He is angry and nothing he says should be believed or read. Jeff and I are morally outraged that he could insinuate our actions as anything less than genuine or twist our words. We had valid reasons for banning him as mentioned before, he is a bad apple. I'm also a moderator for Stackexchange and have preemptively banned him so he will not threaten our community further. If anyone here is a Wikipedia moderator, I would ask that he be banned here as well before he and his bot-net get out of control. We at Stackoverflow only ban users for very specific criteria and all of what he wrote on wikipedia was blatantly false and cannot be believed.

Thank you for posting, and for volunteering the information that you are in fact a Stack Moderator. I'm sorry you're having trouble with the disgruntled guy but I, for the record, find it somewhat troubling that that you've taken the effort not only to ban him from your own site, but then to follow him over to W-Pedia to continue to hash it out with him. Wouldn't you suppose that he wouldn't be (ranting?) here if you gave him a voice on your own site? The fact that you're also requesting Wikipedia to ban him exemplies what he is claiming to be a problem. Without wishing to sound biased, there can be little doubt in my mind that the site currently has management problems, and for this reason I can only ask that you treat the Uberholden with just a bit more respect. Also, I'd like to emphasize the point that this article could benefit from an expanded criticism section. The criticism should be drawn from the most reliable sources available. If blogs are the most reliable sources, then we should use the most reliable blogs. Good luck with your web site administration efforts -- I think that Stack has a lot of potential if people could get past a bit of the growing pains.

Haha... "growing pains". You do realize that SO has more active contributors than WP at this point, right? The (supposed) SO mod "followed him over to WP" when he was essentially vandalizing the article on their site, which you don't seem to feel is a problem. You are extraordinarily biased, and it shows. I've made an effort to remove the obvious bias and misleading (non- and mis-sourced) statements from the article, but left everything that could be sourced... and it's suddenly not very interesting. It suddenly bears a striking resemblance to the moderation policies at WP. -- Kiru

Thank you for making the changes. You brought up the issue of SO vandalism. Just to be clear, my goal is to remain more or less neutral on this issue. While I wouldn't want anyone to read something that I wrote and feel that I've encouraged vandalism of your website, I'm not in any position to ask people not to vandalize your website either, no matter how much you would prefer that they didn't. Minimally I can promise you that I will not personally vandalize SO, if that serves as any consolation. I also apologize that you're having trouble with Wikipedias editing policies. Certainly I wouldn't suggest that our policies here are perfect. At any rate, you might want to be careful about accusing WP editors as being biased. We are here to help you and even if we were found to be biased, it wouldn't change things for you the way that I suspect that you think it will. In any event, how about the addition of a controversies section to the article? This would bring it into closer alignment with other technologies. Thanks again and I hope that we have the opportunity to collaborate on other articles.

Hmm, I think we might have miscommunicated somewhere. I was referring to the edits on this page as "vandalism." Perhaps a bit strong, but considering the misleading use of source material (as well as outright fabrications) in the original version of this section, I'm tempted not to temper that judgement. I don't actually have any problem with WP's policies, but was just attempting to explain that SO policies are remarkably similar to the WP policies, as well as matching nearly all other reasonable online communities. Because of that, I'm not convinced that a factual explanation of these policies is sufficiently notable for a section in this article. That's more of a "does this really help the article?" argument, as opposed to any other concern. Kiruwa (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. We can sort it out. And actually, I'm tempted to agree with you. I tend to think that much of Wikipedia would be a lot better if most of our editors were a bit more given to self-reflection. Given that consensus, I attempted to go first and to add some comments about the Wikipedia Article that called for expanded criticism...but actually, there seems to be a lot more criticism included in the article since the last time that I read it. Tell me, what further criticism do you think should appear in the Wikipedia article? If it's reasonable, I'll cheerfully call for its inclusion.

Suspension Section

I see no notability whatsoever in this section; thousands of websites have bans/suspensions of this sort and it's not central to the website's function, nor is it novel or otherwise of note. Suggest removing the section completely.--Sirtaptap (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Google first, yes--but when you do that many of the results are from forums and other communities. You don't dare ask for further details or clarification when that might lead to your being banned.Pithecanthropus4152 (talk) 21:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Average users don't have a chance on Stackoverflow.

 low-quality questions and answers are blocked. This includes posts from:
   users who can't be bothered to form sentences
   users who don't do the most basic kinds of research themselves
   users who barely even explain what it is they are trying to do

Jidanni (talk) 16:15, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, Stack Overflow's intended audience is not "average users", it's Programmers (both professional and hobbyists) I agree that there is no notability in this section as the suspensions are well documented on the site, relatively rare, and universally reversible. ChristopherTStone (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Legal status of systematic exclusion of less articulate / intellegent users

Mention if the systematic exclusion of less articulate / intellegent users might conflict with Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (mental impairment), etc. laws.

Stack Apps section

The section needs rewriting: for years there has been a full read/write API (version 2 now) and the stack apps website is a minimal part of that ecosystem (basically a showcase). API docs are here http://api.stackexchange.com/. Full disclosure: I'm a Stack Exchange employee and moderator. Sklivvz (talk) 11:25, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

^ "Stackoverflow Criticism". 2009. Retrieved 14 December 2009.

[1] ttp://stackoverflow.com/tags | C# dominates all othre Stackoverflow Tags... for a reason

[2] ttp://g-wan.com/imgs/promoting_inefficiency.gif | Stackoverflow promoting inefficiency

[3] ttp://g-wan.com/en_doj.html | The U.S. DoJ ruled that making MICROSOFT .Net benchmaks illegal harms end-users

[4] "Stackoverflow Criticism". 2009. Retrieved 14 December 2009.

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