Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 July 29
I attempted to discuss this with the closing admin on July 25, he never answered and has since made edits including answering other people on his talk page. He closed the discussion as no consensus and I think there was a clear consensus to delete. Two out of the three keeps were impeached at the discussion as they simply cited WP:OUTCOMES which is not a reason for keeping. That leaves one keep that thought there was enough sourcing to meet WP:GNG to three deletes that did not think there was enough to meet WP:GNG. Me5000 (talk) 02:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Overturn and have it re-closed by an admin who does not comment at the DRV. If I still had the tools, I'd definitely have closed this as delete. But that's not the main reason why I'm !voting to overturn. The admin's contribution log says that they closed this AfD less than a minute after their previous one. They left no explanation for a 4-3 close. And then no explanation to the complainant here. That's not smoking gun evidence of course and I'm not trying to trout the admin; there can be all kinds of perfectly innocent explanations for each of those three occurrences. But it does lead me to doubt that a full reasoning process was applied to the closure, especially when I suspect a great many admins, if forced to write out reasons for the close, would have found a consensus to delete. --Mkativerata (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)When I review that discussion, "impeached" certainly isn't a word that springs to mind. There was a lot of discussion about the WP:OUTCOMES-based !votes in that AfD, and a number of editors expressed the view that such !votes were invalid. LFaraone presumably differs, as he's entitled to do; like so many notability debates, that whole discussion boils down to how you define "significant coverage". It was said, a number of times, that WP:OUTCOMES is just an essay. That's true, but I don't see a chain of reasoning connecting that statement to a "delete" outcome. I would think that "no consensus" was within the closer's discretion given the debate we're considering.
However, personally I would very much have preferred "delete" as a close in that case. Epeefleche doesn't say "delete" in the discussion but his commentary really does lead in that direction. Unscintillating's "keep" !vote is supported by a number of remarks that reflect Unscintillating's unique conception of our normal conventions (e.g. "notability is not conferred", "Significant material is that which is not trivial, where trivial is things like a listing in a phone book"); I see these as non sequiturs that the closer should probably have discounted. The nomination was well-put and supported by good reasoning. I think that discussion strongly tended towards delete.
Therefore, although I think the no consensus close was within discretion, perhaps the closer of this DRV would use their own discretion to relist the debate at once, so that after another week's discussion we can delete the article in an orderly fashion.—S Marshall T/C 11:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Endorse Consensus can change: I have over the past five or so years argued for great selectivity in our coverage of local subjects (malls included), and a year ago I would have said that to a very considerable extent the general felling agreed on that. However, over the last year, it has been increasingly evident that the previous degree of agreement is no longer the case: the current trend is for greater inclusiveness here. I cannot ignore that many of the people whose views on notability I most respect no longer agree with me here--whether I have been carrying this too far might be one explanation, but that the prevailing sentiment does seem to have changed. I am unwilling to argue that the rule I want is the rule that everyone does in fact agree with. Quite the opposite--if the general mood here is in a particular direction, I will eventually accept the change, not try endlessly to fight against it--its the only way to do effective work here.
- There's no point in trying to appeal to principles on such matters: the guidelines are whatever we collectively want them to be, and we will collectively interpret policy to accommodate what we want to accomplish. For a project organized as we are, there's no alternative--anything else requires a formal body to oversee and enforce fixed rules, and as far as content goes, we do not have that.
- The closer read the consensus correctly--there just isn't any. I can only suggest that in trying to remove excessive articles on malls or other local subjects, we concentrate on the smallest and least important, not the borderline. They;re the only ones where we're likely to achieve consensus. I don't think relisting will help--it would be better to concentrate on the less defensible articles of this nature. DGG ( talk ) 04:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Endorse Unless you discount some !votes, as the nomination suggests, there was no consensus. If you think OUTCOMES deals with the topic in question and it reflects your understanding of the community's view on notability, you are fully entitled to support its conclusions without providing further analysis of our notability guidelines and essays. To give a sufficient reason is quite suitable. I note the delete advocates did not give reasons against redirection or merging but nonetheless I think their opinions were also entirely suitable to be given full weight. I agree Epeefleche's contribution could reasonably be taken as delete. Thincat (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Endorse clearly no consensus, though it did lean heavily towards the keep side. XiuBouLin (talk) 23:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)