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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 72.73.121.75 (talk) at 23:58, 12 December 2014 (→‎Control of Media: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RfC

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:22, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On Reliable Sources

I would like to note that it seems contradictory to Wiki's source rules to reference the Anti-Defamation League as source regarding the issues being discussed on this page. By this measure, I would think then that any organization which is chartered to argue one side and one side only of a particular issue would carry a certain amount of bias, and may in fact have an agenda. I have gone through some of the archived discussions, and I also find it mind-boggling that reliable sources are mainly prescribed as those in Main Stream Media, which is the subject of one of the issues represented as a canard. I have done a great deal of reading using this very site on the ownership of media in America, and the ownership of those half dozen media conglomerates most certainly dials back to individuals who are Jewish. In so far as that ownership goes, why would it be considered a Canard if when researching these companies using Wiki (which themselves follow Wiki rules for sources) confirms these as facts? How is stating a fact in-and-of-itself anti-semitic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.14.110 (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The ADL simply has more credibility than Ernst Zuendel or Stormfront. We shouldn't blindly accept something said by the ADL if it's rejected by other significant reliable sources, but it's useless to try to be "neutral" or "balanced" between the canard-spreaders and the anti-canard debunkers when on average the anti-canard debunkers are much more reputable... AnonMoos (talk) 23:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting! Thank you for enlightening us that Jews control the media, is that in the article as one of the canards? Well, it certainly is one. And I'd love to know how the ADL and other rights groups argue only one side of the debate. What's the other side they should argue, that Jews are evil criminals who control the world with their long noses? Be real. --Jethro B 23:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think if you will re-read my comments, I ascribe nothing to the 'Jews'. I have noticed no distinction is made in these discussions, between like-minded individuals of a group and the group as a whole. "Muslim terrorists" is a popular phrase in the MSM, but I am quite positive that doesn't refer to the group as whole, and doesn't necessarily make it a canard either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.14.110 (talk) 23:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you wrote, "and the ownership of those half dozen media conglomerates most certainly dials back to individuals who are Jewish." I don't know your intentions, but this is often used to support the conspiracy theory that Jews control the world, because it's an evil crime to establish a successful business (assuming, of course, the claim is true). --Jethro B 00:09, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. Note: "individuals". My intent is only to seek out truth, without prejudice. If there is anything I have learned in this life, it is that there are two sides to every story, and the truth is most certainly found somewhere in the middle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.14.110 (talk) 16:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And what exactly is the "middle" when you have ADL saying that Jews don't actually control the world and it's a canard to say so (you've rejected ADL as a source), and neo-Nazis claiming that in fact Jews are elaborate decepters who secretly control the world... That Jews only control half the world, and media outlets? This is going to be interesting. --Jethro B 19:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:SOAP. I agree with what you're saying, but this isn't appropriate here. --Jethro B 20:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Wow, "99.239.14.110"! What a fruitful false deduction! You're saying that anyone in the world can make up any accusation at all, and thereby MOVE THE TRUTH!
Say someone, perhaps General Wombat himself, asserts that General Wombat is not a rapist. That's ONE side of the story. Now anyone can make up the OTHER side. and say he is a rapist, and "99.239.14.110" says the truth MUST now be somewhere in the MIDDLE -- meaning General Wombat is at least somewhat a rapist! Bull. And anyone who is "against" any person or group can claim ANYTHING AT ALL, and "99.239.14.110" will support them by saying that their claims must be at least partly true.
Some statements are true, and their negations are false, and the truth is NOT somewhere in the middle.
Hey, have you considered claiming that every Jewish synagogue has a secret divinely powered "radio" in their holy of holies, and that's how they all coordinate their secret evil plans? Then the Jews (oh, no, you always say "individuals who are Jewish" so that you can deny ever using the term "Jews" (where have I seen THAT liar's stratagem before?)) some individuals who are Jewish can say there are no such radios, and you will have proved that they have something that works kind of like a radio in every Holy of Holies... Gosh, your "experience has taught me" concepts and "logic" prove false again... —Mwr0 (talk) 20:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot of anger, rhetoric and venom here - none of which I will engage directly, because I think that is precisely what is desired. It is always much easier for a person to feel justified that another person's viewpoint is invalid if you can demonize or characterize them one way or another. Character assassination is not a valid argument. Once again, my point, to be perfectly clear - is that the ADL's raison d'etre is "to Stop the defamation of Jewish people", therefore it is one viewpoint that is specifically referenced here to dispel any such notions that there may be truth to what are herein referred to as canards. My question at the onset of this post, was that if certain notions or topics can be proven to have an element of truth (reference to media ownership), does the idea of 'canard' still hold true? It is intellectually dishonest to not recognize that there is in fact a component of media control by Jewish individuals. Stating so is a fact (if you consider Wikipedia itself to be a valid source), and therefore is in no way defamatory. So what is the actual canard? Is the canard that there is a conspiracy? Then I would think the balanced approach would be recognizing that while ownership of specific media conglomerates can be traced to Jewish individuals, that there is no evidence of a "Jewish conspiracy". It's your article, and I have no intent of editing it, or defacing it. Let it stand as you wish it to be presented. In my opinion, leaving a record of objection to the encyclopedic attributes of this article for others to consider is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.14.110 (talk) 14:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(("Venomous" and "soapbox" and "demonizing" apply to the posts of "99.239.14.110". Don't apply those labels to me just for refuting him, and unjustifiably delete the refutation!)) This "99.239.14.110" stated "If there is anything I have learned in this life, it is that there are two sides to every story, and the truth is most certainly found somewhere in the middle." This declaration was not made randomly, but in order to posit its "worldly wisdom" as a sound logical principle — which it is not!! The short refutation:

Some statements are true, and their negations are false, and the truth is NOT somewhere in the middle. Generating a false statement in opposition to the truth does NOT change the situation so that the truth is somewhere between the true and the false statements.

In other words, the existence of two sides to any argument does NOT prove that "the truth is in the middle". That's logically absurd and unsound. — Mwr0 (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Much absurd and unsound ranting is contained within this box. "99.239.14.110" flatly states that Those that argue "a side" in any discussion are committed to their "version of the truth", and therefore will say anything to discredit any statements to the contrary. Although he implicitly claims that he is such a person, people of integrity are not; his premise is a cynical fallacy, and therefore so are any claims derived from it. These form the major logical basis of his entire argument. (Nor does the religious claim "in the end YHWH will not be played a fool" belong in Wikipedia.) — Mwr0 (talk) 08:30, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


What's logically absurd is presupposing that one side of an argument is absolute truth while the other side is inherently and undeniably false. Those that argue "a side" in any discussion are committed to their "version of the truth", and therefore will say anything to discredit any statements to the contrary. My "worldly" wisdom comes from the experience that when two sides are in a dispute, both have a viewpoint that usually (not always) contains some measure of truth to each, which is inevitably skewed based on each person's particular biases. That skewing is where fact may blur into fiction, and can only be clarified by independently verifiable facts that can prove claims one way or another. So if one is to objectively investigate any given claim, both sides must be heard equally and commonalities begin pointing at truth; hence the truth is in the middle. It's a figure of speech. Of course if you choose to take everything completely literally - then you will be completely obtuse to the concept that what I am really saying is there is "some truth to each side". I believe this is the same principle that is used to form Wikipedia articles in an encyclopedic fashion. The concept that anything anyone says contradictory to the claims of one side are immediately and inherently false just demonstrate the concept of absurdity that is so painfully obvious, it is dumbfounding that you dared offer it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.234.221 (talk) 16:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not "neutral" in the dispute over whether the earth is flat or quasi-spherical, nor in the dispute about whether the sun orbits around the earth or the earth orbits around the sun. If there are specific problems with the ADL's literature, then we can certainly look at them in the context of other reputable sources. However, Wikipedia is simply not going to "balance" ADL against Stormfront and Ernst Zuendel, so any such demand is doomed to frustration from the start. AnonMoos (talk) 02:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rhetoric comparison of my argument to the history behind the debate on whether the earth is flat or spherical does nothing to denigrate the argument I put forth. I am quite sure these statements are made with the intent to be derogatory and patronizing, but realize you are not debating with a simple mind, who will be exhausted by red herrings. Encyclopedic content presents what is verifiable. We all recognize the earth is round because it is independently verifiable, not because one side weighs in more heavily than another with opinion. At this precise moment in time I have no knowledge of Stormfront or Ernst Zuendel, therefore this argument is lost on me. I have not referenced these sources to begin with, and as such, I will dismiss these presentations as irrelevant to my point - although I am sure they certainly have some significance to those commenting here. As far as I am concerned, what is blatantly obvious, is that this article depicts first and foremost what the ADL promotes, and by those in this forum claiming that what ADL promotes to be true, and all other sources contradictory to what ADL promotes are inherently false - shows itself to be blatantly bias, one-sided, and intellectually dishonest. As stated before I can demonstrate via Wikipedia's own articles on media ownership (which follow these very WP rules on sources), that the half dozen major media conglomerates in the United States are owned by individuals whom are Jewish. Whether or not that translates to conspiracy is subject to independently verifiable proof. As with any concept of conspiracy, most remain relegated to theory because much of it is unprovable without significant corroboration - much like scientific concepts of 'string theory' or the 'big bang theory'. Until these theories can be corroborated they will remain theory in the eyes of those who seek absolute truth. The bottom line is that just because one group vehemently contends that something is a canard (a.k.a 'a lie') that does not make it so. The more this is debated, the more I am convinced that this is not encyclopedic content at all, but rather PROPAGANDA that has no place in Wikipedia. Rather this content should remain within the confines of it's source, for consumption by those who seek out such propaganda. Joseph Goebbels is a historical figure which all here should be familiar with, and it seems to me he said something to the effect of 'if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually believe it'. I am not sure whom this article is really intended to convince - whether it for the benefit of the Jewry or the Goyim, but I assure you that in the end YHWH will not be played a fool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.234.221 (talk) 06:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC) Template:Hap[reply]

Revert by Jethro B

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antisemitic_canard&diff=519087806&oldid=519087228 ref ths revert, the claim that it is unexplained is not correct. See the history. The word however is POV and should be avoided. The main point is the claim that Jenny Tonge ............gave credence to the organ harvesting claims by suggesting ..... This is BLP, it is POV, and OR since the RS does not say this. This edit should be removed, and this claim of giving crecedence should be removed, or an RS provided that states that, and the claim attributed to that RS.86.128.43.102 (talk) 07:58, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with 99.238.234.221's argument and with his standards for epistemology. Wikipedia has demonstrated repeatedly, over the years, that its NPOV is no such thing where certain topics are concerned, and the politics regarding Jewish history and/or Jewish interests are among such topics. Just in the above exchange, I see one side arguing that objectivity should be maintained when examining Jews; i.e., that exceptionalism should be avoided, that assumptions friendly toward Jews are as improper as are assumptions hostile toward Jews. And I see the other side making unsupported assertions generally to the effect that every antisemitic opinion must necessarily be false. Wikipedia is obviously not in hands capable of recognizing neutrality on this subject. Instead, those hands try to place their "mark" of neutrality somewhere that it should not be, or to characterize neutrality as something it isn't. Among those who have the biggest say, or the final discretion, in what stays on these pages and what will be removed, there is a history, long and strong, of establishing what "credibility" is, who has it, and who does not, by declaration. The assignment of degrees of credibility here flows from political motives. To be sure, as one writer said, (specific) statements are either true or false, and there is no middle truth-value between them. But that summary of circumstances is, perhaps intentionally, incomplete. Complex descriptions contain many statements, any of which may be either true or false, and you should take them one by one when trying to determine which statements are false. Further, just because each specific statement must be either true or false does not mean you may pick the truth-value that you prefer, skipping all analysis and pretending that, in this case, the setting forth of evidence is something that need not be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.80.226 (talk) 10:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They could also be pro-jewish canards

Some of these canards could actually be described as being pro-jewish since they make the gentile people look dumb and superstitious or "evil". The canards are also used to shut down any discussion as to the real reason why jewish people experienced anti-Semitism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.44.38 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever -- an anti-Semitic canard is a negative tale which ends up getting perpetually recycled and resurrected, no matter how many times it's factually debunked. Not sure what the opposite would be, and if it's not a recognized phenomenon, then it's "original research" as far as Wikipedia is concerned... AnonMoos (talk) 12:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Control of Media

"J. J. Goldberg, Editorial Director of the newspaper The Forward, in 1997 published a study of this myth regarding the United States,[70] concluding that, although Jews do hold many prominent positions in the U.S. media industry, they "do not make a high priority of Jewish concerns" and that Jewish Americans generally perceive the media as anti-Israel."

How does Goldberg's opinion on whether or not his idea of "Jewish concerns" are prioritized, impact whether or not Jews do indeed control a substantial amount of media? And he admits that they do. Already the "anti-semitic canard" is refuted by a Jew.

Likewise, what do the "perceptions" of Jewish Americans matter? How much more vague can you get?

How about some facts for a change? Do Jews have substantial control over the media or not?

This is a silly question because Jews themselves admit that they control Hollywood and major portions of newsmedia.

Of course the only way to support this "canard" claim is to equivocate Control of media with *exploitation* of that control.

The comical thing is that everyone knows how silly it sounds to first admit that a party has control over something (which Jews themselves admit) but then claim it's not being used to the party's benefit. Does anyone buy that for a second?

I would suggest removing the media section altogether. 72.73.121.75 (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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