Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Erasmus University College

Erasmus University College

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From what I can tell notability for this subject hangs on two references (both in Dutch):

I am not convinced that this is sufficient coverage, particularly given that the second source appears to be a scanned newspaper article embedded in some other kind of document. The other secondary sources cited in the article have a number of problems: they are either not independent, don't have significant coverage, or cover a tangential topic (such as the architecture of a building, or Erasmus University Rotterdam which already has a wikipedia article). Some of the citations do not back up the assertions that they are cited for. Other possibilities return to draft space or redirect to Erasmus University Rotterdam. Vrac (talk) 13:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC) Vrac (talk) 13:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 00:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 00:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - secondary schools are routinely kept at AfD as long as they can be proven to exist. The reason is that even if English language coverage is not readily available online, local/regional is certain to exist. A scanned newspaper article (the document is actually quite a bit more in depth than just a scan) is certainly as valid as the original newspaper article. More coverage can be found here. Even from the stuff easily found online, it is quite clear the college is notable. To delete this would smack of systematic bias. Pinging @DGG: who accepted this at AfC. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep We keep all degree-granting universities and colleges with a real existence; not a single one has been deleted in the last 5 or 6 years, except for those that turned out to be not actually colleges but some other sorts of institution, or that had not been started yet. The question here is whether it is sufficiently distinct from Erasmus University Rotterdam. , since EUR awards the actual degrees. I think there is enough information to show separate existence as autonomous, but the alternative would be to add it as a section to the EUR article. (This is going to come up again, as universities outside the US begin to add or affiliate with US-pattern liberal arts colleges--so far we have kept the few that have been brought here. ) DGG ( talk ) 20:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Those two sources that I mention in the header are the only ones I could find that actually talk about EUC, the google search that Thaddeus posted is full of references to the architecture of the building or other tangential topics. I don't feel that it is sufficiently distinct from Erasmus University Rotterdam, at least not yet, surely it will have more coverage if it grows from 85 students to 750 in the next six years as they claim. The COI makes it a tangled web to unweave, for example this sentence: "In the 2013 Nationale Studentenenquête (NSE), EUC scored an average of 4.1 out of 5 points for student satisfaction." Is backed up by this citation: [1]]. As they say AFD isn't clean up but I would send it back to the AFC drawing board to straighten some of this stuff out. Vrac (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As a degree-awarding institution should be kept per longstanding precedent and consensus. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: To clarify, Erasmus University College is not a degree-awarding institution, the degrees are awarded by Erasmus University Rotterdam.Vrac (talk) 15:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's purely semantics. Neither is King's College, Cambridge. I don't see us deleting that any time soon! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

King's College passes WP:GNG by itself, not by NSCHOOL. The question should be: does Eramus University College do the same? Vrac (talk) 16:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reframing the discussion So far some of the voting rationales are showing misconceptions about this topic. It should be noted that Erasmus University College is not an independent, degree-awarding institution. It is an offshoot of Erasmus University Rotterdam which already has an article. As such, notability guidelines like WP:NSCHOOL do not apply, whether this org merits a stand-alone article separate from its parent organization should be evaluated based on WP:GNG. My contention is that a stand-alone article is inappropriate for this topic due to lack of significant coverage in secondary sources. The article also suffers from POV, COI, and deceptive sourcing; at a minimum it should be sent back to draftspace (which it never should have left with these issues). Vrac (talk) 16:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I do not appreciate being told I don't understand the situation. I understand it just fine and stand by my comment. Consensus about secondary education institutes does applies - the fact that this institution is an offshoot of another does not make it any less of a college. And even if it did not, the GNG is met, as can be demonstrated through a little effort. References about the architecture, for example, are certainly valid references. RS do not comment on the architecture of non-notable institutions.

Now, let's address your irrelevant complaints: a COI is never a reason for deletion. The article does not read as POV at all to me, but if it was that would be a reason to edit it, not delete it. Inadequate sourcing is again an editorial (not deletion) material, but again I don't see any "deceptive sourcing". I didn't check every last ref, but the ones I did do indeed back the statements they purport to back. If there are actual problems with sourcing, fix them or point them out on the article talk. Deletion is not the answer to problems that can be fixed via editing. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry if you are offended, but you clearly do not understand. First of all it is not a secondary school, it is part of a university and therefore tertiary, and it does not issue degrees. WP:SCH states: "In general, tertiary degree-awarding institutions and senior secondary schools are considered notable." This entity does not issue degrees. The degrees are issued by Erasmus University Rotterdam, this college is not independent. Does it merit its own article? That is determined by WP:GNG. Obviously you are free to vote however you feel about the coverage, but your rationale to keep because "secondary schools are routinely kept at AfD as long as they can be proven to exist" is clearly flawed.

For sourcing issues, see this sentence: "In the 2013 Nationale Studentenenquête (NSE), EUC scored an average of 4.1 out of 5 points for student satisfaction." which is backed up by this citation: [2]].

COI and POV are reasons to not let articles into the mainspace, but it went through anyways. This is POV: "Over the past century the university has developed into a broad and renown institution." (More questions about independence, the college was founded in '13, this sentence and much of the article is about the university which is more reason not to give it a separate article). Vrac (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, editorial issues are not relevant to AfD. (One POV sentence does not a POV article make, incidentally.) And yes, I am going to be annoyed when someone says "you clearly do not understand". I understand just fine, thank you. You are playing a semantic game. Erasmus University College has a separate campus, separate teachers, separate administration, etc. The degrees may (or may not) say "Erasmus University Rotterdam" on them (I have no idea and I doubt you know either), but quite clearly one can earn a degree by attending classes exclusively at Erasmus University College. To me that makes it a secondary education institution, no matter how much you think I should agree with your opinion. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I just spent 2 minutes fixing the (barely) non-neutral material and other editorial issues. The article wasn't even remotely close to problematic to begin with, but is even less so now. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the article? It says: "Students at Erasmus University College receive a degree from Erasmus University Rotterdam, which consistently ranks among the best universities in the Netherlands." This seems to have become an emotional issue for you so I won't belabor the point. Vrac (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have read it. I don't know what the diploma says as either "Erasmus University College" or "Erasmus University Rotterdam" would could be interpreted as "a degree from Erasmus University Rotterdam". Regardless of what the diploma says, students at Erasmus University College receive a degree.

An no, it's not an "emotional issue" for me - I'd never heard of this place before the AfD. I simply to do not appreciate people presuming to tell me what I do or do not understand. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And yet you have no problem presuming to say it to others :) Vrac (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, I certainly could have phrased my thoughts better than "you do not understand". --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I think there is some misconception on the matter whether Erasmus University College is an autonomous institution or not since Liberal Arts Colleges in The Netherlands operate slightly different from those in the United States or United Kingdom. Although Erasmus University College does get a joint degree with Erasmus University Rotterdam, it is an independent institution with its own faculty staff/program and dean. Moreover, other Dutch Liberal Arts Colleges also get a joint degree with their affiliated university like University College Utrecht does with Utrecht University and University College Maastricht with Maastricht University etc. The other secondary sources cited in the article which are considered problematic are used in the pages of other Dutch University Colleges as well. Finally, if the sources are the primary concern of whether the article should stay or not, all other Dutch University Colleges like Amsterdam University College should be removed as well because they are heavily based on primary sources (more so than Erasmus Univeristy College).