Talk:Hanukkah bush

This article was nominated for deletion on September 5, 2005. The result of the vote was keep. An archived record of this vote can be found here.

[Untitled]

This is an interesting subject, but I think it would serve better if condensed slighly and merged with Christmas tree.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Moving tangential stuff here for the moment

I guess I've changed my mind... so I'm moving this material here for the moment because I think it's good stuff that belongs somewhere, but it's a little tangential to Hanukkah bushes, and the phenomenon of "mutual goodwill between Jews and Christians during the holiday season" is not really the same thing as "Hanukkah becoming more and more like Christmas."

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In the U.S., in the twentieth century, Hanukkah began to be perceived as having similarities to Christmas. A 1926 reference quotes a speaker at a New York temple, speaking on "Hanukkah and Christmas," as saying that "whenever there is the human demonstration of kindliness, freedom, and good cheer" Jews should "participate, but that all theological interpretations should be ignored."^[1] In 1940, Christmas fell on the first day of Hanukkah; in 1946, it fell within the eight-day Hanukkah celebration. Both occasions were marked by expressions of Jewish-Christian unity. A 1946 news item mentions a "joint Christmas-Hanukkah program" at a Minneapolis school and quotes the organizer as saying "now these are widespread throughout the country."^[2] Increasingly, Hanukkah began to syncretize the less obviously religious elements of Christmas.

1. ^ "Finds Jewish Feast Like Christmas." The New York Times, December 6, 1926, p. 26, reporting a talk by Dr. Nathan Kraus at Temple Emanu-El
2. ^ "Toys to Fit the Child," The New York Times, December 15, 1946, p. SM22, item at end of an article about toy selection

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Article title

This article was recently moved by User:Jordain to Jewish Christmas Tree with the edit comment "Hanukkah bush moved to Jewish Christmas Tree: Name is insufficient, anti-Christian."

The Wikipedia:Naming convention is to "give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize."

"Hanukkah bush" gets 1030 Google hits and is a real phrase that is widely used.

"Jewish Christmas tree" gets only 90 Google hits and from context it is clear that this is not a customary way of referring to it.

I do not see what is either "insufficient" or "anti-Christian" about the name "Hanukkah bush," but in any case that is the real name. "Jewish Christmas tree" is a description.

Discuss here and don't move the article, certainly not until it is off AfD, but also not before there is consensus on what the name of the article should be. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• Not keeping the article at Hanukkah bush could be seen as anti-Jewish. It's the most widely used phrase. We don't need to try and be religiously "correct" about it. Anti-Christian is not a good reason to move an article on a Jewish subject. - Mgm|^(talk) 07:24, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Hanukkah bush is the name that should be used. This has nothing to do with "anti=Christian". --ZappaZ 17:43, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

• Yeah, and it's not a Jewish Christmas tree, it's a Hannukah bush! :) jengod 18:23, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

• As a Christian, I don't know what is supposed to be "anti-Christian" about the current name, which doesn't appear to reflect on Jesus or Christianity one way or another. If I had to start at the beginning, I'd call it a "Shrubbery sacrifice for Hanukkah", but sometimes life gets ahead of art. Smerdis of Tlön 18:35, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't have much first-hand experience with the subject of this article, but it does seem that it describes a phenomenon that is distinct enough (though related) to Christmas trees to warrant a distinct article. Also, though I was raised in a Christian family, one of the earliest memories I have from our Christmas tree was a bagel ornament similar to that described as having been at Saks Fifth Avenue. That detail of the article was particularly interesting to me. — ArkansasTraveler 22:37, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Offensive to Christians?

Please don't insert material suggesting that the practice is offensive to Christians unless you can supply a verifiable source citation to back this up, such as a quotation from a prominent clergyman. Note that Hanukkah bushes are not public displays. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Bad Page

I find this page insulting. It is not a common practice for Jews to have a Christmas Tree in their homes, and in this page there are no quoted sources to say anything to the contrary to grain of this article.

• I count six or seven sources... e.g. Rabbi Ron Isaacs, "There are certainly Jewish families that feel that they can have a tree in the house without subscribing to the Christian element of the holiday," Peter W. Williams, "Some Jews eager to approximate Gentile customs... and with tongue firmly in cheek—add a 'Hanukkah bush,' or Christmas-tree substitute, and even have visits from "Uncle Max, the Hanukkah man," a clear counterpart to a well-known Christmas figure." And I don't think Saks Fifth Avenue would have advertised decorations for a "Chanukah bush" if it were a rare or obscure practice. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think the anon has a point. There are no real sources given on the prevalence of the practice; some rabbi making an anecdotal remark has no particular authority on this. And very many references to "Hannukah bushes" in popular culture are just more or less jokes, including the 1974 Saks ad (if there was a major market, one would think this would be targeted just a little more regularly). I am seriously skeptical that this article may be implicity exxagerating the prevalence of Hanukkah bushes in the U.S. What we desperately need a real source, like a relevant poll or sociological study of Americans Jews.--Pharos 22:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

There are many ridiculous pages in Wikipedia, and this certainly qualifies as one of them.--Gilabrand 11:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree; this is insane. I live in one of the major Jewish areas/cities of America and NO ONE I know has one of these things!! The closest I could find was when a well-meaning Xian bought a little blue tinsel tree for her boss & said she was going to decorate it for him for Chanukah as a gift.FlaviaR 10:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. The North-African Jews, even religious ones, make the Chennah ceremony before wedding. and guess what, this practice is a 100% Muslim one, nothing in common with anything Jewish. And nobody tells these Yidden about the "dangers of loosing their identity and heritage". My little golden tree has real candles and glass ornaments including Magen David, kiddush cup, mezuzot, Menorah and even a rabbi. And there will be a big chanukiyah next to the window. And I do not feel less Jewish. Chag sameach and get a life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LiberalJew (talk • contribs) 18:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You sound defensive. Very much so. And yet no one had said anything to you that you "defended against." Looks like it's obvious who needs to "get a life."FlaviaR (talk) 02:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Euphemism?

One definition of euphemism is:

The act or an example of substituting a mild, indirect, or vague term for one considered harsh, blunt, or offensive. "“Euphemisms such as ‘slumber room’ . . . abound in the funeral business” (Jessica Mitford).

Another is:

the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted

Euphemisms usually refer to taboo things like religion, excretion, and sex.

I find it hard to view "hanukkah bush" as a "euphemism," because I think few Jews see anything harsh, blunt, offensive, unpleasant, or taboo. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Citation Requests

Removed text:

"It is very common for Jewish children whose families do not have trees to envy Christian friends who do[citation needed]. Some families feel that it is important for children to understand and value the difference between Judaism and Christianity and refuse to have a "Christmas tree" in their home. On the other hand, it is not unusual for a Jewish family simply to have a Christmas tree and call it by that name[citation needed]. The "Hanukkah bush" falls somewhere between these extremes."

"A typical"

If someone can find citations that substantiate the "very common" and the "it is not unusual", please cite and put back into the article.

Thanks --Igoldste 17:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Will this do? http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/neil-gaiman-hanukkah-with-bells-on-1203307.html ? It is referring to British usage though and this article seems to me to be purely USA based. Chaotic Doire (talk) 18:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Novi God

I'm confused by the Novi God reference. Is this something that is just celebrated by Russian Jews as the text implies? Also, the text implies that Russian immigrants of other religion have dropped this practice while the Russian Jews have continued it. Can someone clarify?

Thanks --Igoldste 17:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Too many quotes

I've deleted the quote farm tag from the article. We're not using quotes as a collection of quotations here, so I don't think the simple tag is appropriate. --Prosfilaes (talk) 13:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I put it up because I strongly believe there are too many quotes for an article about something so simple (in my opinion, parts of this article should just be merged into this but that's another story). I have yet to see any other page on Wikipedia that has more quotes than info. Therefore I think the tag is very appropriate. --Fez2005 (talk) 02:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The quotations are no more nor less than the references for the article. I wrote quite a bit of this, and I was very concerned about providing references. This is a very tricky cultural issue, because:

• there is a wide spread of Jewish opinion about the practice;
• because some unfamiliar with the phrase questioned whether it was really a widespread phenomenon;
• and because there were some editors who seemed to me to be involved in the "culture wars" and seemed to feel that the very phrase "Hanukkah bush" was somehow an affront to Christians.

I couldn't find any comprehensive references, so instead of using generalities that couldn't be referenced, I decided to use specifics that show the range of opinion by showing what individual authorities have said about it.

I believe what I did was fully in keeping of the spirit of WP:CITE, and I don't think there's any problem with the article having too many quotations. I won't delete the tag myself because I'm too directly involved in editing of this article. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who questioned the wideness of the "phenomenon," I can assure you I am very familiar w/the term - it's one of the reasons I question just how widespread this suppose practice is. I still vote to get rid of this page in place of a minor mention in a larger article somewhere.FlaviaR (talk) 23:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The quotes are not longer than the rest of the article. It is more dependent on quotes than most articles, but I don't see that as a bad thing in this case; it works as an article.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to stop arguing about this as I have better things I can do in life than discuss Wikipedia. However I just want to end on the note that when I first read the article, the whole style of it felt very un-Wikipedia-like. And I'm sure many people who would come across the article would agree. I'm not saying that the tree of quotes is a bad thing, but perhaps they would fit better on a blog, a separate website, or an MLA-formatted essay than in Wikipedia. --Fez2005 (talk) 08:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Most people believe that most reasonable people agree with them. Without evidence, it's hardly a helpful statement.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Gertrude Berg/ Ed Sullivan Episode?

Would someone post more specific information about the 1959 episode in which Gertrude Berg spoke about the Hanukkah Bush? I would like to find the original air date of this episode. The footage is needed for a documentary about the life of Gertrude Berg.

98.204.68.239 (talk) 19:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)Peter @ The Ciesla Foundation

cieslafdn@aol.com

Novyy God

"A Hanukkah bush is not to be mistaken with an actual Christmas tree which Russian Jews frequently use when celebrating Novi God, the celebration of the New Year, and devoid of religious meaning. Russian Jews in America and Israel often use Christmas trees in celebration of Novi God complete with the Russian version of Santa Claus (Ded Moroz)[citation needed], yet the celebrations are not signs of assimilation as often thought, but a tradition reflecting the secular Russian holiday (with the actual Christian Orthodox Christmas celebrated by Russian Christians in the beginning of January)."

My removal of the paragraph about Novvy God was reverted. Rather than re-revert it, I would like to see what the consensus is. I believe that the paragraph about Novyy God should be removed for several reasons.

1. This article is not about "Things that are not Christmas Trees". Novyy God uses a New Year's Spruce (Novogodnyaya Yolka).
2. Novyy God is celebrated by all Russians as a secular Russian holiday, and not solely by Russian Jews.

Thoughts? --Igoldste (talk) 06:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

In Israel and possibly even in the US, most of the Russian families who would carry on this tradition are in fact Jewish. The Novvy God is certainly something that can be confused with a Hanukkah bush, which is why it's here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Nothing Christian about Christmas trees

The article states: Ironically, there is nothing Christian about Christmas trees, except the tenuous association of the pre-Christian winter festival tradition with the modern holiday yet at Christmas tree we find The Christmas tree is a decorated evergreen coniferous tree, real or artificial, and a popular tradition associated with the celebration of Christmas and at Christmas we find Christmas or Christmas Day is an annual holiday celebrated on December 25 that commemorates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. How can something related to the celebration of the birth of Jesus not be Christian? --Igoldste (talk) 03:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Christmas trees are not closely connected with Christmas. They were a non-Christian tradition, the German Tannenbaum, that was absorbed into the celebration. They are no more Christian than "Rudolph, the Red-Nose Reindeer."Dpbsmith (talk) 02:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that the key point that you make is that they were a non-Christian tradition. However, today they (as noted in Christmas tree) now are "a tradition associated with the celebration of Christmas".

Best --Igoldste (talk) 17:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

There are two points to be made about the Christmas tree as a Christian tradition. The first is to say that everything was once something else, and it makes the tree, which has a long tradition of use by Christians, no less "Christian" if it had a previous identity as something else. (Whether there is biblical authority for it is a different issue. The Bible itself doesn't have biblical authority as a unified canon, and nor does the cross as the primary symbol of Christianity; that doesn't make them any less Christian.)

Secondly, the Wikipedia article on the history of Christmas trees makes fairly clear the current state of research on the origins of Christmas trees and other "pagan" symbols: a couple of hundred years of interpretation of folk practices (and even "revivals," such as horn dances) as ancient pagan customs was eagerly taken up by modern Pagans and others eager to embrace pre-Christan customs, as well as by modern evangelical Christians trying to purify Christmas of its more festival aspects. However, current research looking for actual evidence of the pagan origins of various customs often stumbles on the problem that, despite a large body of potential sources in the form of documentation of complaints by churchmen about the habits of their flocks, as well as enthusiastic research by early students of popular antiquities, it is often hard to push evidence of "ancient pre-Christian customs" further back than a couple of hundred years. There is just as much evidence (perhaps more evidence) for the Christmas tree as a Christian custom originating in mystery plays and church decoration as there is for its having a pagan origin. Yule logs and Christmas trees appear to have rather separate histories. It would not be surprising if northern European cultures--Christian or pre-Christian--celebrated winter holidays with coniferous greenery and lights, but that is different from identifying the Christmas tree as "really" pagan, or even as specifically and solely pagan in its origins.

Also, I take issue with the statement that Christmas "was made a secular legal holiday before most Protestant Americans observed it as a religious holiday." Yes, Calvinist Puritans didn't like Christmas, a source of unending amusement to those of us frustrated by the notion of an anti-Christian war on Christmas, but I'd like to see a reasonable source for this statement, given that Massachusetts was not the only American colony. (The South was predominantly Church of England. Did they also not celebrate Christmas?) I'd like to have specific information on exactly when Christmas was made a legal holiday, and at what point it was between the Puritan colonists and, say, the enthusiastic celebration of Christmas by the New Englanders in "Little Women," that the celebrating began. Winter Maiden (talk) 00:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I've heard of these Hanukkah Bushes but I've never seen one

Hanukkah Bushes are not real. This page should state that. It's a joke. I've never seen a Hanukkah Bush and so it's up to the Wikipedia to present some sources that show it's real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.222.203.146 (talk) 07:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Did you look at the "notes" section? The article contains twelve references to various sources attesting to the existence of "Hanukkah bushes."Dpbsmith (talk) 02:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

A Christmas Tree for Hanukkah?! What's next: Sculpture of Ganesh for Id al Fitr? I just want to tell the celebrators of the Dual Holiday that they have to remember that when the year becomes 13 months long , then Hanukkah is much closer to Halloween . And a year later Halloween becomes a little closer to Sukkot. festa feliz 84.95.230.168 (talk) 00:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)