Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts

Frank Mir's "Mir Lock"

Frank Mir's submission over Pete Williams should be listed as "Mir lock." It is indeed a shoulder lock, the same way a kimura or an americana is a shoulder lock, but it has been called the Mir Lock for a very long time. The move has been called this ever since he used it & I've never heard anyone refer to it as anything else. That's the name it has been given. When Jones caught this move standing on Glover Teixeira, everyone Rightly called it by this, including Joe Rogan during the live broadcast. When Sherdog doesn't have or know what to call a submission they just put something generic, which is why many older fight results are simply "choke." They will never go back and change their mistakes but now that we have a name to call it by there's no reason we shouldn't use it. Would love if it could be given the name everyone knows it by. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

(Note: this is copied over from another discussion.)

The sources you supplied before did not appear to be reliable sources (fan-generated content). Even the source you supplied here, which does appear to be a reliable source, states: "The ‘standing Mir lock’ as many on the internet messageboards of the world have rightly dubbed it" is not a clear statement by a reliable source that this is the official name of the method. Unfortunately commentators are always going to be adopting new terminology to describe what's going on in the ring but whether we should ever adopt that terminology in these tables is a completely different matter. What we do want to do is have something resembling an official record of the fight. Just because one or even several commentators use a specific bit of terminology doesn't mean that it's in any way part of the "official" record of the fight (for some vague definition of what is "official").

Also, do other people use this technique? And if they do is it called a "Mir Lock"? I think the answer to that should play into our deliberations. If the same technique is only called a "Mir Lock" when Frank Mir does it I think that's a problem. SQGibbon (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem with finding a "reliable" source is that this is an incredibly rare submission. You're not going to find an ESPN article on the move nor is anyone over there going to be aware of who Frank Mir is. Sites like Bloody Elbow are the best sources for MMA you will find when looking for information on old fights. Frank Mir is the only one to successfully submit someone with it & it has always been called the "Mir Lock" ever since. This is a very niche submission in a fairly niche sport, there's not going to be much information on it. As for other fighters using it, I already said Jon Jones did & everyone called it the "Mir lock" then. That was the point of the link I provided. As for Joe Rogan, he isn't just a normal commentator, he's a very knowledgeable jiujitsu practitioner so it's not the same as just any commentator calling it a random name. He knows his stuff. The fact is, this is the only name for this particular shoulder lock. As of right now, calling it "inside shoulder lock" is the same as calling a rear-naked choke simply a choke or a "can-opener" simply a neck crank (actually that one is still happening which irks me). This is what everyone aware of the submission calls it. The only people who don't refer to this submission as a "Mir lock" are the ones unaware of it. The only sources I can provide are people saying that the move is commonly referred to as the "Mir lock." But, that's how submissions get names. The kimura is just a reverse shoulder lock named after Masahiko Kimura because he made it famous & the D'arce choke is an arm-triangle choke named after Joe D'Arce. It should be the same for the "Mir lock." 24.102.148.42 (talk) 19:15, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

If something is obscure enough to not be mentioned in reliable sources, that's a sign to not include it, not to lower the bar. "Inside shoulder lock", while not perfect, is far more informative than "Mir Lock", which to a reader who didn't see it could just as well be describing a leglock or headlock, performed by Mir (which they already know).

ESPN knows who Frank Mir is. They call it an "Other-lock". InedibleHulk (talk) 01:21, January 10, 2015 (UTC)

That makes no sense. MMA at one time, not too long ago, didn't have any big name media outlets covering it other than to equate it to dog fighting & prostitution. Does that mean it shouldn't be talked about here at all? The information is out there just because the big name media doesn't know it doesn't mean it isn't true. My point was a site like BloodyElbow will know better than ESPN. That's their niche. You saying that ESPN calls it an "other lock" while BloodyElbow correctly calls it a Mir lock proves my point. CNN thought 4chan was a person, while a much smaller site correctly knows what's up, does that mean we should go with CNN's information because it is more "reliable." I feel you completely ignored everything else I said. It seems nothing is ever seriously discussed on here... A Google search for Mir Lock will give you many images of Mir pulling off said move & a Submissions 101 breakdown of it. A search for "inside shoulder lock" will give you many different submissions including a "how to do the Mir lock" article. As for the uninformed not knowing what a Mir lock is, a simple sentence or two on what the Mir lock is on Frank Mir's page, or a link to the above article, & problem solved. As you said, why "lower the bar" to the people who don't know something? 24.102.148.42 (talk) 15:19, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Sherdog has been around since hounds fought prostitutes in one-night tournaments, and they call it what Wikipedia does. "Inside shoulder lock". Since we use them for every fighter's results table, it makes some sense to not make an exception for one guy's one fight. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:44, January 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Sherdog is great, for the most part. They have a ton of results but also a ton of errors, I believe Daniel Cormier is still undefeated over there, & if they don't know what a submission is called they won't go back & correct it when they do. There's MANY results listed as just "choke" or even as just "submission" when video of the fight can easily be found & the move can be identified. When Frank Mir pulled off the move, it had no name, so at that time calling it a shoulder lock is correct. Today, it has a name! It's the same as if a caveman said "hey, there's a glowy rock thing up there!" when referring to the moon. Technically, it is a rock so he would be right & at the time, it had no name, so calling it that would be a perfectly valid option. That is, until it was given a name. Everyone calls this submission the Mir lock now, that's its name, it is no longer just a random shoulder lock it has a name. It's the same way the keylock & reverse keylock are now the americana & the kimura respectively. They adopted names. Jon Jones uses the move now, if he uses it again in a fight, it will be called the Mir lock again - though it will kill me if the new fans start calling it a Bones lock which is another reason showing that it already has a name is a good thing. I feel there's a strong case to make an exception here since the move now has a name & Sherdog isn't going to go back & change it but we can. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 01:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't really have a name. It's affectionately known as a Mir Lock, to some. But this is the Internet, where outside observers do that. The Showtime Kick, Smolka Kick, Bronx Necktie, Aldo Knees, Rampage Slam, etc. These aren't things like "Brabo choke" or "Superman punch", which are called that when anyone does them. If Rogan (or Sherdog or someone major) calls the Bones Lock a Mir Lock in a Bones fight, there may be something to it. Hasn't gotten there yet.

Very untrue. The only reason you could say it doesn't have a name is because of Sherdog. Every fan or practitioner will call it the Mir lock. You can't drill this move without knowing its name. This is different from those you mentioned being that everyone calls it the Mir lock. The Showtime kick is the same though. That's the only name for it. If someone wins by throwing a Showtime Kick it will definitely go down as a Showtime Kick. There's just no other way. Bronx Necktie is only for those unaware of how a D'arce or an Anaconda works. I think I saw 2 people want to call it that. The move he uses wasn't a new move, he just pulled guard on it. Pretty simple & there's no real reason to have it listed as "modified" to be honest. Brabo choke is an "archaic" form of the D'arce & Anaconda choke, no one calls it that anymore, the same way the keylock is an archaic form of the Kimura & the Americana. Sherdog is the only one still calling it these names. But alright, I guess I'll wait on this one. Seems you guys aren't going to agree with me. I tried. Are there more than just you three guys discussing these things? 24.102.148.42 (talk) 04:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

There are a few more in this Wikiproject. But when things get too long, sometimes people don't read. Or they're doing real life stuff. Or don't care. Or care, but leave it to whoever's saying what they're thinking. Hard to tell who discusses something, or how it ends, until it's discussed. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:08, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

Don't really care and amazed what people get worked up on.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

This is the kind of mentality that gets nothing done. There literally is nothing positive about having that kind of stance on a subject you are suppose to be supporting. I have an obsession for the little details which can be frustrating to some... but I am not wrong. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

A wide variety of mentalities get nothing done. If there was just one type, evolution would have weeded it out by now. All obsessions frustrate the obsessed more than anyone. While you've been devoting your time to this little tree, the forest is falling around it. There are many flaws in Frank Mir (at least seven in the just the middle sentence of "Rise back to title contention"). Wikipedia isn't all about being right or wrong, it's about persuasion. If you stepped back from the Mir Lock and got this unwieldy bush Manual of Style compliant, I'd view you as someone with a vested interest in the article, and more easily support suggestions than if they'd come from a single-minded outsider. Pretty standard among communities in general, I think. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:17, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

My obsession is with martial arts, not trees. But I see your point. I just care about the technical aspects of the sport & would like others to be able to read these articles & know the difference between submissions. A kimura is both a shoulder lock & a keylock but a hammerlock is not a keylock but is a shoulder lock - same goes for the Americana & the Mir lock respectively. Just some little details I think get overlooked, by Sherdog as well. As for the Mir article, I changed some things around that I hope helps. Not sure if there was something in particular you wanted but that paragraph you pointed me to really had no redeemable qualities & just seemed out of place since it referred to an event that took place much further on. Couldn't find a source for the quote either. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Not literal trees. I looked at your revision. You've fixed quite a few things, but introduced some new mistakes. Mostly minor. Still a not up to MOS snuff, but I appreciate the effort. For that, I'll Not Oppose your proposal. It's not quite as good as supporting it, but still turns the tide in your favour. Consider my prior objections void. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:47, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Ha. Great, thanks. I'll have to read up on MOS sometime & fix whatever I messed up. So are we putting this to a vote? Is there anyone completely against this change? 24.102.148.42 (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Um, if no one has any objections, can I change it? 24.102.148.42 (talk) 17:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you referring to the Mir Lock? If so then I still object. There are always going to be different sources referring to these things differently. Settling on one source as definitive prevents these types of never-ending discussions. If the UFC or other governing bodies kept this kind of official record then that would be ideal but without that I think using Sherdog works well. Also, something you might not like, but Wikipedia is less interested in the Truth than in verifiability. Related, I don't believe you answered my initial objections about how reliable your sources are. Some of them were not reliable at all and some were reliable but the context did not make it clear that they were making an official statement or that they felt their proclamation should be part of an official record of the fight. SQGibbon (talk) 20:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of not getting there yet, everyone from UFC 182 is waiting for a Sherdog record update, for some reason. Jury and Cannonier are also still undefeated. They have the tables right, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:53, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

It makes plenty of sense. MMA is a niche interest and you should be thankful this content gets included in Wikipedia, at all. We have to go by reliable sources even if the sources aren't "in the know" because the people that do know MMA don't enjoy the credentials of real news outlets like The New York Times. I regularly look at MMAFighting.com, BloodyElbow, and the Underground but each of those sources aren't widely considered reliable and have been debated about at the reliable sources noticeboard. Read up about it. If we trusted non-reliable sources, even if they've been right in the past, we leave ourselves open to publishing material we should have suspected of being faulty. Look, if CNN says that the sky is green, it's green. That's how this works. I understand how crazy that sounds but that's how things work here. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That's ridiculous, you even admit it is ridiculous... how can you continue to follow that format? MMA should have it's own set of reliable sources. I find an MMA specific site much more reliable about MMA related information than these big name media sites. They don't care about MMA & will often get things wrong or not include details that a legitimate MMA site would, i.e., the Mir lock. Just because the site isn't as popular doesn't mean its information is incorrect. I'm actually dumbfounded. I don't know how to argue my case if it seems everyone admits I'm right, elects to continue to follow an incorrect format, & doesn't seem to care to fix what is clearly broken. How is anything suppose to be discussed when the answer is always "I know that legitimate MMA site says that, but the site that doesn't follow MMA makes no mention of it so we have to collectively stick our heads back up our asses now. Have a good day." 24.102.148.42 (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Randa Markos

Can Randa Markos have an article? She's in the top 10 of the UFC's Strawweight division with wins over Felice Herrig & Tecia Torres who are also in the top ten with articles of their own. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not quite enough, per WP:MMABIO. Needs three fights in a top tier promotion. You might be able to argue that she fought for the Strawweight Championship, since it was contested in a tournament she was part of, but I can see that being tricky. She might have enough independent coverage to make a case. Things like this. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:54, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Also, wins on TUF don't count as official MMA wins. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:59, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I was wondering if there would be an exception made for the UFC's Strawweight division because the way it was formed & the fact she's in the top 10 with wins over other popular fighters. She does have a ton of coverage though. Very popular fighter. In the women's category, she won Submission Of The Year, Inspirational Fighter Of The Year, Personality Of The Year, and Strawweight Of The Year. Awards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.102.148.42 (talk) 23:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Weight class column in record table?

I think it'd be a good idea. Many fighters move up and down throughout a career. A column would let readers follow the progression and note missed weight catchweights at a glance. With abbreviations, it wouldn't be a wide column. This sort of thing (according to Nikita Krylov's edit history) is frowned upon in the Notes column.

Thoughts? InedibleHulk (talk) 15:11, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

It would be hard to get such information from obscure fights — they're barely sourced and some of those small organizations don't even use the official weight classes (or have legit weigh-ins). A lot of them would stay blank (or with N/A), not to mention the hard work of filling those new columns for hundreds of records.

IMO, the notes are okay. Poison Whiskey 01:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

That's true. I also thought the notes were fine. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:02, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

Just seems like a lot of extra redundant information best left in the text rather than table. Its an unusual fighter that shifts his weight more than a couple of times.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

A lot of what's in the table's doubled in the text. It's a quick guide. As it stands, the Notes column is mainly filled with redundant blankness. I don't see the harm in noting the transitory matches there, especially since it'd be a lot less work. A little sketchy as to whether "Light heavyweight debut/return" is similar to "UFC debut", per WP:MMA.

I agree - and yes using the notes to indicate transitory matches makes the most sense to me rather than a dedicated column.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, new welterweight/lightweight Zhang Lipeng/Lipeng Zhang could use a table at all, if anyone's interested. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:24, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

I just took care of that. Apologies if I made any errors. I'm not sure how to move the side box above the record box though. If you could fix that, that would be great. Looks a little off as it is. Unless that's how it is suppose to be? 24.102.148.42 (talk) 16:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but it looks normal to me. Thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:59, January 27, 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Are there any other fighter's missing a record table? I added Travis Fulton's a LONG time ago & that guy had a million fights. 24.102.148.42 (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Not off the top of my head. The Ironman must've been a chore. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:52, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

If you win or reach the final of TUF are you notable?

Ning Guangyou [1] winning the Ultimate fighter is that enough to make him notable?

Appearing on the TUF final counts towards WP:MMANOT - not enough on its own right.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:46, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

It can count, but only if a few secondary sources treat it like something special, and give us something to write, other than "He just about won the most obscure version of TUF". InedibleHulk (talk) 08:41, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Fatal error: Does not compute.

I don't want to alarm anyone, but every single Sherdog infobox link is broken! New URLs or some such witchcraft.

Someone handy with code want to fix that? InedibleHulk (talk) 08:38, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like something has changed. I've edited the infobox template (Template:Infobox martial artist), but now you need to put everything after "fighter/" in the sherdog field (see Anderson Silva).

I think its better wait a few days... if nothing happens, we'll see what we should do (maybe stick with my solution or someone else's solution). Poison Whiskey 16:22, 21 February 2015 (UTC)