Talk:Creatine supplements

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These comments have been migrated from the Creatine talk page as they discuss supplementation.

Side Effects... For Real

This article needs to list side effects, and sources for the list of side effects. As is, this article would lead individuals to believe there are no side effects. This is not true. This is most likely due to Supplement companies contributing a lot of this article, most likely the ones named in the article. Muscletech is notorious for trolling sites and forums attempting to better themselves and their overpriced products, regardless, within a week or so someone should post the well documented side effects of creatine, or I'll write up a list of the side effects mentioned in documents from the Mayo Clinic.

Chk this:

"Current studies indicate that short-term creatine supplementation in healthy individuals is safe (Robinson et al., 2000). Longer-term studies have occasionally been done, but have been small. One such study that is often cited involved a minimum length of 3 months, but only had 10 creatine subjects (Mayhew et al 2002)."

Robinson et al., 2000/Mayhew et al 2002 is not proper documentation for a wikipedia article.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.255.15.9 (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

It's been well-documented that the many scientific studies of creatine have found no deleterious effects or medical risk, and in fact the only side effect from creatine supplementation reported in the scientific and medical literature has been weight gain. Negative side effects are generally isolated anecdotal reports. I don't see how the article is misleading or contains trolling. I'll leave you with this PDF ^[1] to read. Yankees76 22:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Just because it's safe doesn't mean there aren't side effects. Let's cut the crap and someone post some -reported- side effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.216.252.220 (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have removed this rubbish "causes large ejaculation from penis sometimes up to a gallon of fluids". ozboy 5/10/06

I don't have any studies handy, but it has been my understanding (and personal experience) that using creatine monohydrate supplements can cause or worsen acne. In a brief glance at various online message boards, this seems to be a fairly common side effect. Worth mentioning in the article? KyuzoGator 18:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only if it's referenced - try www.pubmed.com for any studies that detail side-effects. Frankg 19:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One well documented side effect is the increased conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, see this 2006 study: ^[2]. Increased dihydrotestosertone has several documented side effects like acne, male pattern baldness, increased prostate size (the benign variety) and possibly prostate cancer. For me, the increased dihydrotestosterone is certainly the most serious side effect of creatine supplementation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.212.239 (talk) 13:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

This link [3] needs to be added to the list of references at the bottom of the article. If anyone spots any other studies cited that aren't at the bottom, please add them. Thanks. Yankees76 17:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should add...

Someone should add that Creatine is not an anabolic steroid and has no relation to anabolic steroids. This seems to be one of the most common misconceptions concerning creatine in the public that I know of. As absurd as it is. I think it atleast belongs here somewhere.

I agree with this opinion. I had the above misconception. I found the following article to be an interesting source: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html .

Someone should add the key creatine arguments of about its use as a dietary supplement for research intrests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.81 (talk) 01:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Side effects?

How about adding the list of other effects recognized by the FDA (and some indication of how likely they are), and the foul body odor that creatine users are notorious for having?

Got a source for that? Yankees76 15:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the body odor thing? Not a rigorous study. But the lead author of an article about creatine effects on brain function (C Rae, AL Digney, SR McEwan, TC Bates. Oral creatine monohydrate supplementation improves brain performance: a double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over trial. Proc. Royal Soc. B. 270/1529 (October 22, 2003), 2147-2150) has said in interviews that it makes its users smell worse. She'd be about as authoritative as it gets until there's a specific study on whether creatine makes body odor stronger, and who would fund that? Anecdotal sources and assertions spring up on a google search for <creatine "body odor">. The BBC published the statement too when reporting about the aforementioned article.

For other effects: FDA Special Nutritionals Adverse Event Monitoring System.

and MS Juhn et al. Oral creatine supplementation in male collegiate athletes: A survey of dosing habits and side effects. J. Am. Dietetic Assoc. 99:593-594, 1999.

Clearance of Creatine and NCAA rules?

Can anyone tell me, how long does it take to clear creatine from your system....i.e. can you take it for a brief period and get benefits but not have it show up on drug test for a college athlete. Does anyone know if it is forbidden by the NCAA rules?

4-6 weeks, but it's not banned by the NCAA, so they're not testing for it. Yankees76 04:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not 100% true. Since Creatine is made naturely in you body, it is not ever out of your system. A urine test can show higher than the norm levels of Creatine this in and of its self does not prove someone is taking a supplement as any number of medical conditions and diets can cause this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nukeguy04 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure the question was referring to higher than natural levels acheived from supplementation. After stopping creatine supplementation, muscular creatine phosphate levels return to baseline in about 4 weeks, depending on the users diet and how much they are ingesting through natural sources. And a urine test will not show higher levels of creatine, it will show increased levels of creatinine. A blood test would be used to measure serum creatine. But thanks for your input, even if a bit misinformed. --Yankees76 (talk) 13:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

information request on creatine blockers

bill are there creatine blockers or inhibitors? itd be interesting to know if there are, i had a conversation with a guy last week who claimed that coffee is a creatine inhibitor. is there documented evidence of this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Billleo74 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Not true. One study Vandenberghe in 1996 "showed" that creatine and creatine/caffeine supplementation completely negated the performance benefits of creatine in this study. However the study is commonly dismissed and is better known in the supplment industry for it's flawed design.

First it incorporated what is called a "crossover design". In this type of study, one group takes creatine and then switches to a placebo a few weeks later while other group does the opposite. During each treatment performance tests are done. This allows for researchers to compare the same athletes (on creatine) to themselves (on placebo) a few weeks later.

The clowns who did this study only allowed three weeks between creatine / caffeine and placebo. The problem is that creatine, once loaded into the muscle, takes about four to six weeks – or more – to be eliminated.

What is also interesting about the study is that is showed that caffeine didn't affect muscle creatine levels. So if muscle creatine levels remain unhindered by the caffeine, why didn't the athletes improve their performance? Proably flawed design at work again. Since performance tests were conducted, the treatments could have affected both testing periods - making the data from the study almost meaningless. The short "washout" period in this study probably flawed the results allowing the subjects to have been benefitting from creatine supplementation throughout the testing even when they were performing as the placebo group. Yankees76 04:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Caffeine is known to cause dehydration through diuresis, although during athletic performance and with increased tolerance this effect may be reduced. I think the possible effect of caffeine induced dehydration, coupled with the increased hydration needs placed on the body during creatine supplementation, provides an explanation for any myths/rumors/chinese whispers that creatine and caffeine can "cancel each other out". -Anonymous Coward —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.8.79.21 (talk) 20:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case, we would see a reduced level of creatine in the muscles, which did not happen. My own theory is that oral creatine supplementation shortens muscle relaxation time (facilitation of muscle relaxation is important to the ergogenic action of creatine supplementation - and when phosphocreatine stores are low muscle relaxation slows and exercise performance drops), however caffeine alters muscle calcium levels which slow muscle relaxation (caffeine reduces the functional capacity of sacroplasmic reticulum), cancelling the benefits of creatine. --Yankees76 22:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History of Creatine Supplements

The following sentence is unclear: At the time, low-potency creatine supplements were available in Britain, but creatine supplements designed for strength enhancement were not commercially available until 1993 when a company called Experimental and Applied Sciences (EAS) introduced the compound to the sports nutrition market under the name Phosphagen.

The "compound" was not creatine but creatine monohydrate. If no objection, I would like to change the word "compound" to "creatine monohydrate".GetAnabolics 20:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Creatine monohydrate is the same thing as creatine. It simply means that there is a water molecule "dissolved' in the creatine. That is, creatine and water in a 1:1 ratio, but in a solid solution, rather than a liquid one. There is no difference between the two. Even if you had "pure" creatine, the second you ingest it, it would dissolve in the water in your body. Likewise, the creatine monohydrate, once it dissolves in your body, the water molecule just joins the water solution as well.

re-work

I did a moderate re-work of the article, took out some POV stuff, unneeded details, product placement stuff, lots of citation templates. Lemme know if people have any problems. I also added a lead sentence, I can't think of what else to put in it. WLU 14:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Phosphagen.jpg

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Side Effects and Long Term

From what people have said when they've been on this supplement, some of the side effects are diarrhea, head aches, cramping and aggression. Not too sure how I can list the reference, cause I read it in a magazine a while ago and don't know where it is nor the name of it, something 'health', 'Men's health'?! There is also the lack of study into the long term effects, mainly in the region of the kidneys. Well, thanks for the support Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

POV of this article

Whilst reading this article, I got the impression that this supplement is safe and there is no harm in taking this. Hopefully this can be balanced, I am unsure whether a banner should be stuck up for neutrality. It should be changed, in google, one of the most popular hits leads to here, and can be misleading for those doing heavy "research" into the matter. Oh please, why won't anyone think of the children? Try the fish, yum mercury, Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There seems to be no true long-term (decades-long) safety studies. For example, its now known that coffee consumption over decades leads to dramatically reduced liver disease. For all we know, this is because the coffee is blocking naturally-occuring creatine damage to the liver. That creatine has undetectable adverse effects after a year or two is promising, but meaningless for those of us who plan to live more than a few years. linas 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing is completely safe, but I'd bet more people die each year from choking on spinach than taking creatine. There is only so much controversy worth spending the time to talk about. Frankg 03:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ban In US Military

This should Be included in a criticism section where US Troops died with creatine intake during excersice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.10.204.56 (talk) 20:16:25, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Need a source. WLU 00:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Although it has been banned I still feel that the military environment does not allow for creatine users to take it properly. A bodybuilder non military has the freedom of taking extra water if need be cutting back on protien etc... point being is that a bodybuilder non military can tailor his creatine intake or well maintain his diet AROUND creatine. Military personnel have orders, last minute TDY's, statistical alcohol drinking habits, 24hr shifts, shift changes such as one week grave yards next days. Given this its not a conducive environment for creatine and I can see how this would start to effect in a major way the military creatine user. Source: first hand experience....Ex military —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.180.140.105 (talk) 15:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ban in France and elsewhere

The article states that "In some countries, such as France, creatine is banned". I have not been able to find a reference to any country other than France which has ever banned creatine. And apparently consuming creatine has always been legal in France, you just had to get it from some other country. I have also seen recent references to people who now say creatine is readily available in France. Does anyone have the facts on this? Mmm (talk) 07:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some research is needed on this. France banned sales of creatine in the early 2000's (2002 I think) This 2006 article says it's "outlawed" in France and Ireland [4]. Germany prohibits the sale of Creatine-Ethyl-Ester-HCl, Creatine-Alpha-Ketoglutarate Di/Tri-Creatine-Malate, Di/Tri-Creatine-Orotate, Tri-Creatine-HM-ß, Creatine-Pyruvate, Creatine-Ethyl-Ester(-Malate) to be sold, yet allows Creatine Monohydrate. --Quarte t 14:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One might also want to know ( at least i do) WHY these bans are in effect (if they are) is it because it is considered doping, or because they (these creatinederivatives) have not gone through enough trials to yet be proven safe? 217.13.226.39 (talk) 13:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I live in France and you can buy Creatine in the pharmacy or even shops.

for example this site has creatin and you can clearly see 3 shops with addresses in Paris : http://www.toutelanutrition.com/front_navigation/boutique_nutrition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.22.91.249 (talk) 12:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm it's readily available in France and therefore is probably legal nowadays. However I found this Pubmed article from 2001, which says why it's not legal in France: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11317142. The short of it is that it is produced from sarcosine which might originate from cow, and the fear of the so called mad-cow disease which was then very much of a concern, together with that some "contaminants", namely dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions, are or might be formed during the production process. I haven't yet made further investigations, I put that here for what it is worth.90.3.41.89 (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PKD and Creatine use

I'm a little disappointed that this article fails to discuss the well recognized research on the effects of Creatine use for people with Poly-Cystic Kidney Disease (PKD). I recall researching Creatine a number of years ago and this was a common thread. I tried Creatine for a while knowing this risk but then found out my father has PKD which gives my a 50% chance of having PKD... Would hate to have not known of this risk. Please see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11136170 Jponline77 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Synthesis in "Chronic Compartment Syndrome"

The para that describes this looks like the author took a study that found one patient with increased compartmental pressure after supplementing AND working out, and extended this finding with an entire paragraph talking of the dire consequences of Chronic Compartment Syndrome and postulating that a number of creatine users may suffer lower leg pain.

This is clearly synthesis, and would welcome suggestions on how to make this more scientific and accurate. HelpnWP (talk) 02:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious Reference

Hi i added some stuff, citing the following site as a reference. the site seems reliable to me. does anyone have an idea on how to check its reliability? or how to underline the fact that i'm not 100% sure about it being reliable? http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Supplements/Creatine.html Gregie156 (talk) 10:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That site actually looks pretty reputable, judging from the NCSA textbook on the main page, and it's gear toward collegiate coaches. However, I don't know if that site's references could be trusted any more than those already used in the article. I'm sure coaches are very performance-driven...Steinwnj (talk) 8:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

What is creatine made from?

I have been looking througth the articles and can not find anything about what is usually made from: f. ex. slaugtherhouse waste, fish or such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.102.171 (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

None of the above. Creatine is synthetically produced by the manufacturing of 2 chemicals – sarcosine, which is a sodium salt and derivative of acetic acid, and cyanamide. Reacting the chemicals sarcosine with cyanamide in a specific amount of water, inside a glass-lined filled vessel is how it's made. --Yankees76 (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]