Talk:Skanderbeg's rebellion

First things first

The importance of this article to Wikiproject Albania is really high.We should focus first on adding as much information as possible and illustrations.And to focus that there will not be any edit-warring involved.Also the infobox needs a lot of work.A montage of pictures for the infobox wouldn't be bad.I will see to make one soon or later. Nixious6 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

propose to change "battles" to "Start of rebellion"

objections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

And the point of this article is?

What is the point of this article. It looks like a bad copy of League of Lezhe and Scanderbeg articles here in wiki? Even the title is misleading. You cant call that rebellion. By this meter we should call Cromwell time period articles the rebellion of Cromwell?!?! I was lead here with the intention of seeing Albanian Ottoman wars article and not this misleading and useless article. Please rename it ASAP Aigest (talk) 07:58, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The subject of this article is Skanderbeg's rebelion. Not time period. The rebellion broke up in western Macedonia also and many non-Albanians participated in it, supported by Venice, Zeta and Naples. On the other hand, most Ottoman soldiers who fought against rebels were local Albanians. I object its renaming to Albanian-Ottoman wars, which might be useless and misleading simplification. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Well you have an article Serbian-Ottoman wars while by your criteria it should not stand as it is because from the Serbian kingdom or empire there were Serbians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Vallachians (all these populations subject to kings of Serbia) and the same can be said for the Ottoman empire where we had Turkish, Serbians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Vallachians and also Kurdish, Armenians, Arabs etc. The same can be said for Croatian–Ottoman wars, Ottoman–Hungarian Wars, Byzantine–Ottoman Wars and we can go for hundreds of similar articles. That criteria is your own personal criteria, it's not scientific, is misleading and oh... this article is also WP:FORK~. If you need to have an article titled Skanderbeg's rebellion, it should include only events of 1443, (his escape from Ottoman army and the capture of Kruja castle by ruse de guerre for eg) Aigest (talk) 13:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

1. You accused me for creation of WP:FORK. Have you presented a link to the article which I forked? No. There is no such article.
2. The subject of this article is Skanderbeg's rebellion. There is an ocean of sources which support the assertion that it lasted for about 25 years. No doubt you know it.
3. I object its renaming to Albanian-Ottoman wars because it is useless and misleading simplification. Albania was established almost 500 years after the event which is subject of this article. It has never waged a war against the Ottoman Empire. Unlike many other countries from the list you presented. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

1. This article is WP:FORK of Scanderbeg and League of Lezhe articles.
2. Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order. You can talk about it for 1443 events when Skanderbeg passed from Ottoman vasal to an independent one. The moment he was independent and known with such authority from various treaties he had with different states such as Naples, Venice, Papal and even Ottoman Empire (peace treaty of 1460-61 with the soultan Mehmed II) you can not talk for a rebellion anymore but war, as conflict between state entities are called.
3. Wrong again. First of all you make such a mess between modern states and feudal entities in medieval times. Albania as a modern state was founded in 1912. However in medieval times we had various Albanian feudals such as Muzaka, Thopia, Blinishti, Gropa, Komneni, Dukagjini, Kastrioti etc Principality of Arber (medieval name of Albania) founded in 1190 and even a Kingdom of Albania which was founded in 1270 long before Albanian Ottoman conflict of 15th century. Your opinion how it should be called is a personal one, clearly biased and unscientific and furthermore contradicted by historians community as we see in google books for eg the term Albanian- Turkish wars gives 132 results followed by "albanian-ottoman war" with (5) results and even the term "skanderbeg wars" gives more results (4) than "skanderbeg rebellion" a mere (3). As we can see what I proposed was very senseful and accurate. You are kindly asked to make the appropriate changes. Aigest (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

There is at least one more editor who disagree with you that this is a fork and who even invited you to assist in expansion of this article (diff). Another editor who reviewed GAN of Skanderbeg stated that article on Skanderbeg is too long and that some of its "content should be moved to sub pages. If you followed wikipedia rules for Google Search and presented the last page of the search results, there would be 34 hits for A-T wars, all of them pointing to one Albanian historiography Enver Hoxha era book published in Tirana. Taking in consideration that there is no doubt that you know there is an ocean of sources which support 25 years long rebellion subject, it can be concluded that there are two possible reasons for your FORK accusations:

1. you are actually dissatisfied with the title. In the absence of arguments for renaming it to (nonexistent) Albania vs Ottomans, you use FORK accusation as an excuse to kill this article, being aware that it would be very hard to implement "everybody are Albanians" perspective in it.
2. you sincerely believe it is fork of Sk and short lived LoL. If you really and sincerely think this article is fork, there is procedure for merging it or deleting it. If you present convincing arguments, grounded in wikipedia policies, I would be first to support your proposal. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

1. Topic 1 name of the article Albanian-Turkish wars vs Skanderbeg rebellion.

1. The term Albanian-Turkish wars gives a certain number of hits on scholars. and they do not point to the same book but to different books such as 1, 2, or 3. It doesn't matter what other sources point at. The term is known and used in historical literature. While the term Skanderbeg rebellion get no hits among medieval scholars (for more on that see point below).
2. There is a difference between war and rebellion. I explained it above and you seem to forget to argue it. As I said in this case only 1443 events fill that criteria the other years do not.
3. My exact term was Albanian Turkish wars and not Albania Turkish war. In the case of Albanian-Turkish or Albanian Ottoman wars (mane them yourself) the wars were between Albanian rulers and/or their alliances against Ottoman Empire, the same as the other titles here in wiki Serbian-Ottoman wars or HUngarian-Ottoman wars and many many others. Are you implying there were only Serbians in Serbian Kingdom/Empire? Only Hungarians in Hungarian Kingdom/Empire and so on? Are you seeing editors accusing those article on your own arguments? The term is so self-explanatory among historians that it shouldn't even get discussed. Furthermore if you can not understand the difference in English, between Albania and Albanians it is not my fault. Maybe you should try to edit in other languages (I mean those who you know very well) in wiki.

2 I was invited here by another editor. He wanted to create Albanian-Ottoman wars article (couldn't agree more) and pointed me here. I saw the mess and replied. My arguments have been presented above. Everyone who is interested on Albanian-Ottoman wars article should argue on those points Aigest (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)