Talk:Skanderbeg's rebellion

First things first

The importance of this article to Wikiproject Albania is really high.We should focus first on adding as much information as possible and illustrations.And to focus that there will not be any edit-warring involved.Also the infobox needs a lot of work.A montage of pictures for the infobox wouldn't be bad.I will see to make one soon or later. Nixious6 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

propose to change "battles" to "Start of rebellion"

objections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

And the point of this article is?

What is the point of this article. It looks like a bad copy of League of Lezhe and Scanderbeg articles here in wiki? Even the title is misleading. You cant call that rebellion. By this meter we should call Cromwell time period articles the rebellion of Cromwell?!?! I was lead here with the intention of seeing Albanian Ottoman wars article and not this misleading and useless article. Please rename it ASAP Aigest (talk) 07:58, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The subject of this article is Skanderbeg's rebelion. Not time period. The rebellion broke up in western Macedonia also and many non-Albanians participated in it, supported by Venice, Zeta and Naples. On the other hand, most Ottoman soldiers who fought against rebels were local Albanians. I object its renaming to Albanian-Ottoman wars, which might be useless and misleading simplification. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Well you have an article Serbian-Ottoman wars while by your criteria it should not stand as it is because from the Serbian kingdom or empire there were Serbians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Vallachians (all these populations subject to kings of Serbia) and the same can be said for the Ottoman empire where we had Turkish, Serbians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Vallachians and also Kurdish, Armenians, Arabs etc. The same can be said for Croatian–Ottoman wars, Ottoman–Hungarian Wars, Byzantine–Ottoman Wars and we can go for hundreds of similar articles. That criteria is your own personal criteria, it's not scientific, is misleading and oh... this article is also WP:FORK~. If you need to have an article titled Skanderbeg's rebellion, it should include only events of 1443, (his escape from Ottoman army and the capture of Kruja castle by ruse de guerre for eg) Aigest (talk) 13:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

1. You accused me for creation of WP:FORK. Have you presented a link to the article which I forked? No. There is no such article.
2. The subject of this article is Skanderbeg's rebellion. There is an ocean of sources which support the assertion that it lasted for about 25 years. No doubt you know it.
3. I object its renaming to Albanian-Ottoman wars because it is useless and misleading simplification. Albania was established almost 500 years after the event which is subject of this article. It has never waged a war against the Ottoman Empire. Unlike many other countries from the list you presented. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

1. This article is WP:FORK of Scanderbeg and League of Lezhe articles.
2. Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order. You can talk about it for 1443 events when Skanderbeg passed from Ottoman vasal to an independent one. The moment he was independent and known with such authority from various treaties he had with different states such as Naples, Venice, Papal and even Ottoman Empire (peace treaty of 1460-61 with the soultan Mehmed II) you can not talk for a rebellion anymore but war, as conflict between state entities are called.
3. Wrong again. First of all you make such a mess between modern states and feudal entities in medieval times. Albania as a modern state was founded in 1912. However in medieval times we had various Albanian feudals such as Muzaka, Thopia, Blinishti, Gropa, Komneni, Dukagjini, Kastrioti etc Principality of Arber (medieval name of Albania) founded in 1190 and even a Kingdom of Albania which was founded in 1270 long before Albanian Ottoman conflict of 15th century. Your opinion how it should be called is a personal one, clearly biased and unscientific and furthermore contradicted by historians community as we see in google books for eg the term Albanian- Turkish wars gives 132 results followed by "albanian-ottoman war" with (5) results and even the term "skanderbeg wars" gives more results (4) than "skanderbeg rebellion" a mere (3). As we can see what I proposed was very senseful and accurate. You are kindly asked to make the appropriate changes. Aigest (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

There is at least one more editor who disagree with you that this is a fork and who even invited you to assist in expansion of this article (diff). Another editor who reviewed GAN of Skanderbeg stated that article on Skanderbeg is too long and that some of its "content should be moved to sub pages. If you followed wikipedia rules for Google Search and presented the last page of the search results, there would be 34 hits for A-T wars, all of them pointing to one Albanian historiography Enver Hoxha era book published in Tirana. Taking in consideration that there is no doubt that you know there is an ocean of sources which support 25 years long rebellion subject, it can be concluded that there are two possible reasons for your FORK accusations:

1. you are actually dissatisfied with the title. In the absence of arguments for renaming it to (nonexistent) Albania vs Ottomans, you use FORK accusation as an excuse to kill this article, being aware that it would be very hard to implement "everybody are Albanians" perspective in it.
2. you sincerely believe it is fork of Sk and short lived LoL. If you really and sincerely think this article is fork, there is procedure for merging it or deleting it. If you present convincing arguments, grounded in wikipedia policies, I would be first to support your proposal. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

1. Topic 1 name of the article Albanian-Turkish wars vs Skanderbeg rebellion.

1. The term Albanian-Turkish wars gives a certain number of hits on scholars. and they do not point to the same book but to different books such as 1, 2, or 3. It doesn't matter what other sources point at. The term is known and used in historical literature. While the term Skanderbeg rebellion get no hits among medieval scholars (for more on that see point below).
2. There is a difference between war and rebellion. I explained it above and you seem to forget to argue it. As I said in this case only 1443 events fill that criteria the other years do not.
3. My exact term was Albanian Turkish wars and not Albania Turkish war. In the case of Albanian-Turkish or Albanian-Ottoman wars (name them yourself) the wars were between Albanian rulers and/or their alliances against Ottoman Empire, the same as the other titles here in wiki Serbian-Ottoman wars or HUngarian-Ottoman wars and many many others. Are you implying there were only Serbians in Serbian Kingdom/Empire? Only Hungarians in Hungarian Kingdom/Empire and so on? Are you seeing editors accusing those article on your own arguments? The term is so self-explanatory among historians that it shouldn't even get discussed. Furthermore if you can not understand the difference in English, between Albania and Albanians or Turkey and Turkish it is not my fault. Maybe you should try to edit in other languages (I mean those who you know very well) in wiki.

2 I was invited here by another editor. He wanted to create Albanian-Ottoman wars article (couldn't agree more) and pointed me here. I saw the mess and replied. My arguments have been presented above. Everyone who is interested on Albanian-Ottoman wars article should argue on those points Aigest (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

• I see you gave up your FORK accusations. That is clever. Your rationale would not convince anybody to delete or merge this article with Sk. or LoL. Rebellions sometimes last for many years, i.e. First Serbian Uprising.
• Regarding the name: the subject of this article is Skanderbeg's rebellion against Ottoman empire. The current title better meets requests of WP:NAMINGCRITERIA than the title you proposed. AT wars don't meet any of criteria:
  1. Recognizability - it is not description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize. Simply because there were no Albania-Turkey or Albanians-Turks wars.
  2. Naturalness - it is not the title that readers are likely to look or search for. Multiethnic rebel forces were commanded by Skanderbeg. They would search for Skanderbeg's rebellion (revolt, uprising, war....).
  3. Precision - The current title unambiguously identifies the article's subject. AT wars don't precisely point to conflict between Skanderbeg's multiethnic forces who struggled against Ottomans in what is today Macedonia and Albania.
  4. Conciseness - The current title is more concise
  5. Consistency - the current title is consistent with similar "one man show" anti-Ottoman revolts that were fought at limited territory which does not correspond with compact territory of some state or geographical region
• Additionally, the title you proposed might mislead readers to believe that this conflict was war between Albania/Albanians (Skanderbeg, his chieftains and his forces) against Turks. That would be contrary to what sources say: Multiethnic forces from what is today Macedonia and Albania rebelled against multiethnic Ottoman forces composed of Albanians, Slavs, Vlachs and very small percent of Turkish timariots. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

It is funny that you keep avoiding all the examples about similar pages in wiki. Here is something you can do. Go to Austro-Turkish War (1663–64) Austro–Turkish War of 1716–1718 Austro–Turkish War (1787–1791) Ottoman–Hungarian Wars Serbian-Ottoman Wars Bulgarian–Ottoman wars and propose some changes on their names, based on your own personal and not scientific wise argument about ethnicity of the fighters and come back here only when your proposals are accepted, otherwise stay away from Albanian-Turkish/Albanian-Ottoman wars article. Aigest (talk) 06:48, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

You additionally refuted your position yourself. Actually, in this case the other stuff exists position can be better used to support the current title. I already explained that "the current title is consistent with similar "one man show" anti-Ottoman revolts that were fought at limited territory which does not correspond with compact territory of some state or geographical region". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

It was not a foreign invasion?

This part is part definitely not NPOV and it should be removed

"The rebels did not fight against "foreign" invaders but against members of their own ethnic groups because the Ottoman forces, both commanders and soldiers, were also composed of local people (Albanians, Slavs, Vlachs and Turkish timar holders)." Vargmali (talk) 12:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

No per WP:RS and WP:COMMONSENSE. The aforementioned assertion:

• is cited with an exceptional source, the work of Oliver Schmitt, a professor of South-East European history at Vienna University and a member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
• corresponds with common sense. Why would Ottomans bother to transport all troops they needed from Anatolia when they had plenty of available regular local troops.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

There is no citation there. Please provide it. Vargmali (talk) 19:23, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, there is a citation in the main body of the article. The lede summarize the article without citations per wikipedia rules.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The only citation I see is the "in seiner Gefolgschaft fanden sich neben Albanern auch Slawen, Griechen und Vlachen." which does not justify that conclusion. Vargmali (talk) 08:44, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The full quote is "Skanderbeg führte keinen allgemeinalbanischen Aufstand an, da der Süden Albaniens, dessen Erhebung die Osmanen 1436 unterdrückt hatten, weitgehend ruhig blieb. Ebenso wenig schlossen sich ihm die osmanischen Städte des Südens und die venezianischen Städte des Nordens an. Skanderbeg erhielt Unterstützung von den Verlierern der osmanischen Eroberung, großen Familien, die ihr Land wiedergewinnen, Bergbewohnern, die dem Sultan keine Steuern zahlen und keine osmanischen Richter hin— nehmen wollten; in seiner Gefolgschaft fanden sich neben Albanern auch Slawen, Griechen und Vlachen." I left only last part visible to avoid copyright issue. The same author also says "On the whole, it is evident that the rebels were not opposed by “foreign” invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire who were willing to fight members of their own ethnic groups longing for pre-Ottoman times. Many Albanians had good reason not to join the uprising. The movement was not fostered by language or any feeling of belonging to an ethnic group." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:32, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Medieval "national" uprising?

I consulted another editor (Cplakidas) about this article and here is the text of clarification he suggested (diff): "Skanderbeg's rebellion was not, however, a "national" Albanian uprising against a foreign occupation; many Albanians did not join it and even fought against it for the Sultan, nor where his forces exclusively drawn from Albanians. Rather, his revolt represents a reaction by certain sections of the local society against the loss of privilege and the exactions of the Ottoman government, which they resented." or something along these lines. Because clearly at some level it was a fight against foreign invaders, who upset the previous status quo; the difference is that as a revolt it was not the "national revolution" of nationalist-minded historiography but had more complex motivations.

With last three edits of Ktrimi991 (diffs):

1. removed the context of the well referenced text in the body of the article (which I restored with this edit (diff)) and also
2. inserted the following text (though cited) directly into the lede of this article: "Skanderbeg's rebellion was a national Albanian uprising against a foreign occupation and his forces were joined by people of other ethnicities"

I recognize two important issues with this addition: it removes important context proposed above and directly introduce nationalistic motives in medieval affairs. I am sure it is easy to find more sources that parrot nationalistic interpretation of this medieval events. Modern mainstream historiography and works specialized in the matters directly oposses such interpretations. There were no national movements in medieval times so I propose to remove above mentioned addition. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:23, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Title

Seems like a misleading title considering the forces of Topia, Dukagjini and other northern families were involved, many of whom didn't co-operate with Skanderbeg. I suggest the article is re-named in order to allow for the Dukagjini and other factions to be included. Currently the article ignores them. Plus the article should be extended to include events following Skanderbeg's rebellion, up to 1478, as his former followers continued to resist Ottoman advances for 10 years after he died, and the lands did not immediately fall to the Ottomans. Ujkrieger (talk) 15:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Ottoman-Albanian wars is a more suitable title. It was a war between Albanian rulers (the rulers were either ethnically Albanian or their lands lay in the region of Albania) and the Ottoman empire. Ujkrieger (talk) 15:16, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary, that would be misleading title as per above explanations. Skanderbeg's rebellion lasted until his death. There is an absolute consensus of all sources about it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity

The first few paragraphs puts a little too much emphasis on focusing on how diverse Skanderbeg's forces were and how Albanian the Ottoman forces were. Seems uneccesary and a bit confusing too for people who aren't well read on this conflict. Maybe that should be moved into another section rather than being in the introduction. Ujkrieger (talk) 15:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary. Per MOS:LEAD, the lede summarizes the body of the article, which (per WP:MILMOS/C) first clarify who fought against whom.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Name

I don't think that the title Skanderbeg's rebellion is representative of what bibliography discusses and historical reality.

• Skanderbeg was the leader of the wars but not the only lord who fought against the Ottomans.
• It wasn't a rebellion. The League of Lezhë signed at least 5 peace treaties with Ottomans. They ended the wars - even briefly. The Ottomans Empire conquered the region after 1468, it didn't end a rebellion. @Djks1: would a move to Albanian-Ottoman war (1444-1479) be acceptable to you?--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I forgot I had made this comment. I did once move this page to that title, but it was reverted. I do think the page should be moved to Albanian-Ottoman War (1443-1479), with the main section titled "Skanderbeg's rebellion", and then sections included for civil wars between the various Albanian groups, as well as the 11 years of war which followed Skanderbeg's death. There is currently a page called Albanian–Turkish Wars (1432–1479), but I don't see the point of it since there's already an article on the 1432-36 rebellion and an article on actions from 1443-79, so perhaps that page should be split up and the section covering 1443-1479 be merged with this page. Djks1 (talk) 14:27, 29 September 2021 (UTC)