Talk:Operation Jericho

Untitled

I have changed 180 Wing to be 140 Wing. RAF History page shows the signal sent and the sqns all belong to 140 Wing. Sfortune 08:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

French version

After have created the french interwiki link, I saw that the french version is quite different than the english one. The french one includes this operation as part of the global Operation Fortitude of desinformation. There were no much and important of french resistance people to free in this prison. Who's right ? TCY 17:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It is what was said by a high-quality French magazine about warbirds (Le Fana de l'aviation No 432 - nov 2005 [1]). According to their research, and on the contrary of what has been frequently said, no execution was planned to take place in the prison, many of the prisonners had no link with the resistance, those who had were rather low-level guys, and there was no prisonner who was in the know of Overlord. The airmen were told that many resistants held there had helped downed aircrew to escape capture, but it was false. I'm not sure but I think I have read that British pilots were said that French resistants were informed of the raid and they would help to free the prisonners, and that was false. The codeword "Jericho" appeared in 1946, when the RAF turned the operation into a film. In 1944, the operation was called Ramrod 564, and was nicknamed "operation Renovate" (Renovate was the codeword to abort the mission) by airmen (I think that one of them wrote an account of its action under that name), as similarly op Eagle Claw is nickanmed "operation Desert One". Last, Amiens is rather near to Strait of Dover, but not from Normandy.

The reporters analyses that the operation was part of deceiving operations as "Fortitude" aiming to make the Germans believe that the allied beachs landing would take place in the Strait of Dover. Operation Jericho would have lead them to think that among the guys who escaped Amiens prison, some were higher-level resistants than the German had believed and were linked to Overlord. Rob1bureau 13:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Very few people on the French side would have had any knowledge of the Operation and there would almost certainly have been no written record other than the signals sent and received to and from London. On the UK side any relevant documents concerning the operation are likely to be still classified due to the (albeit remote now in 2015) possibility of French Resistance or SOE French Section personnel involved still being alive or having relatives who might be vulnerable to pressure or criticism.

So what 'research' the magazine mentioned above carried out is likely to be hearsay only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.130.17 (talk) 12:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The attack was requested by Dominique Ponchardier of the Maquis, through MI6, to free Maquis prisoners. It had nothing to do with Fortitude South (the British plan to make the Germans think the Allied invasion would come at Calais), which was an MI5 deception operation (as was Fortitude North, the parallel plan to make the Germans think the invasion might come in Norway instead). That is merely a conspiracy theory popular in France. Jack Fishman's 1983 book And The Walls Came Tumbling Down, and the author's research notes, contain most of the relevant witness statements, and these reappear in Robert Lyman's 2014 book The Jail Busters, written with the benefit of access to Fishman's archive. The great resistant Gilbert Renault -- 'Remy' -- was perfectly aware of the origin and purpose of the operation and never understood why people made an unnecessary mystery of it. This article, like a lot of Wikipedia articles, is unfortunately so bad that it can't be fixed on a 'running repairs' basis. It would need a complete remake. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Article here on Gilbert Renault. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 18:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Very few people on the French side would have known anything about either the jail or the raid. There was a war on, and spreading gossip and rumour about prisons in German-occupied Europe could get a person shot. Therefore the only people who know about the Amiens Raid are going to be those in the French Resistance who were directly involved and in contact with the SOE. No-one else. And after the war few genuine 'Resistants' were going to go around talking freely about 'what they did in the war' as they may have made enemies among their own countrymen and women many of whom were considerably less 'resistant' than they were. The Resistance didn't keep records - for rather obvious reasons - so most information was conveyed by word-of-mouth or using short notes passed from hand-to-hand.

The RAF operation on Amiens jail was organised in a hurry and was both risky and dangerous to both the aircrews and the aircraft. They wouldn't have carried it out unless there had been a very good reason to do so. That reason was that the French Resistance had informed London that a number of its personnel being held there were due to be shot, and these prisoners had stated they would rather have some hope of escape and perhaps be killed by RAF bombs, than be just taken out and shot by the enemy.

And one of the most noteworthy things about some people's attempted re-writing of established history is the number of basic errors they make in their narrative, such as technical details, procedure, etc., along with often a basic lack of understanding of what else was happening at the time. These un-informed 'stories', many containing what used to be known as 'schoolboy howlers', may help sell magazines and newspapers but they aren't 'history'.

By the early 1990s many of the true 'Resistants' were by then dead, and many of the remaining ones wouldn't have given interviews to a magazine, 'high-quality' one or not. They were among the few with any true sense of 'honour', see. That was what made many of them join La Résistance in the first place.

Discrepancies with respect to the narrative of Col.R.Lallemand

Hello, This attack is described in the book « Rendez vous avec le destin » written by Col. R. Lallemand who was the leader of the typhoon escort. There are some discrepancies between his narrative and the article:

1. Due to very bad weather condition over England (visibility below 50m), there were only four escort typhoons that performed the junction with mosquito bombers. The unit of these typhoons was the 198. There pilots were Col. R Lallemand “Cheval” as leader, a Belgian pilot whose has join the RAF (he was not yet colonel at the time of this attack), Jack Scambler, Richard Amstrong as N° 3 and 4. The name of the N°2 (right wingman of the leader) is not given in that book.
2. Only one typhoon was lost: the typhoon of the N°2. He was lost after the attack. Its pilot goes back to France after the return over England (sic).
3. Pictures were toke by a Mustang of the PRU (photography reconnaissance unit) just after the attack.

Pinson 14:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

No, the pictures were taken by the RAF Film and Photographic Unit's usual Mosquito B.IV DZ414 O-Orange, with her usual camerman Fg Off Lee Howard but without her usual pilot Sqn Ldr Charles Patterson -- Flt Lt Tony Wickham of 21 Sqn, invariably and mistakenly credited to the FPU, stood in. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Ambiguity in summary

The introduction to the article notes "No prisoners were scheduled for execution as the offical account states". This is ambiguous, could somebody clarify? Does it mean that no prisoners were scheduled for execution (reference required), supporting the text of the official account? Or does it mean that no prisoners were scheduled for execution (reference required) in contradiction to what the official account states? What does the official account state? reference to the official account as well please. Thanks for helping clear up this ambiguity.--mgaved (talk) 17:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Max Sparks

There were six 487 Sqn aircraft on the raid, not seven. One was flown by Max Sparks.

Have edited his name and aircraft back in, along with his navigator Dunlop, the aircraft serial number, and the squadron code. Have edited Cullum out, as none of the sources list a pilot by that name.

"Max Sparks' is not a nom de guerre, or alias, or anything else but the fellow's real name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.44.131 (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Key Publishing's Flypast Special on the Mosquito leads off with an article on MM417, and states specifically that it was brought on as EG-T to replace HX982, which had been damaged on Operation Jericho. Will edit the page back from MM417 to HX982 to reflect this, add source. 120.146.66.185 (talk) 12:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)