Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Expulsion of Cham Albanians: Difference between revisions

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Start of mediation (I hope)

@Robert McClenon, SilentResident, DevilWearsBrioni, Athenean, Resnjari, Alexikoua, and TransporterMan:
- In page Expulsion of Cham Albanians currently the last edit is at 07:17, 12 October 2016‎ by John of Reading. Please no more edits there while we try to settle this.
- In Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians the dispute seems to become serious on 31 January 2016.
- In User talk:SilentResident the discussion seems to start at 02:57, 27 September 2016 (UTC) by Robert McClenon.[reply]
- Please each relevant member, list here compactly the text in page Expulsion of Cham Albanians that you want to change, or that you want to keep as it is despite other people wanting to change it, and the reason why.
- Often in that sort of hostility-ridden war situation, the same men are called "terrorists" or "bandits" by one side and "freedom fighters" by the other side, and similar. Please accept this and do not let discussion here become heated or wordy. Wikipedia is not the place to try to re-fight old wars. I have known a dispute over Wikipedia editing to produce a megabyte of repetitive arguing.
- What this page's title should be, can be discussed separately.
  - Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, User:Anthony Appleyard. I don't expect to be participating in the mediation. My original role had been to try to facilitate dispute resolution, and I see that a more experienced mediator will be facilitating dispute resolution. I am available to assist the mediator, but I don't think that will be necessary. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:35, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OR issue #1

The text in the page Expulsion of Cham Albanians that I argue is synthesis:

Muslim Chams were not keen to fight on the side of the Ottoman army, but already from autumn 1912 formed armed bands and raided the entire area as far north as Pogoni. As a result hundreds of Greek villagers were forced to escape to nearby Corfu and Arta. Thus, the members of the Muslim community were treated as de facto enemies by the Greek state.

The blue/red is to highlight and differentiate between the two sources used to substantiate the section in question. If you don't believe that the text above is synth, then I'd like to know why it's any different than the following sentence:

The United Nations' stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.

There are other points I'd like to make, but I'll leave it at this for now. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@DevilWearsBrioni: For the blue text and for the red text, the article (in the start of section Expulsion of Cham Albanians#Balkan Wars (1912-1913)) seems to give as reference "Tsoutsoumpis, 2015, p. 122", where "Tsoutsoumpis" is defined lower down as "Tsoutsoumpis, Spyros (December 2015). "Violence, resistance and collaboration in a Greek borderland: the case of the Muslim Chams of Epirus «Qualestoria» n. 2, dicembre 2015". Qualestoria: 119–138. Retrieved 14 June 2016.".
An older edit in a long <ref> quotes this from Baltsiotis's book/periodical: "The Muslim Chams of Northwestern Greece. 2011. "Although Muslim Chams were not eager to fight on the side of the Ottoman army during the Balkan Wars, they were nevertheless treated by the Greek army as de facto enemies, while local Christians were enlisted in the Greek forces. For example, a few days after the occupation of the area of Chamouria by the Greek Army, 72 or 78 Muslim notables were executed by a Greek irregular military unit in the religiously mixed town of Paramythia, evidently accused of being traitors."". (Baltsiotis, Lambros (2011). "The Muslim Chams of Northwestern Greece: The grounds for the expulsion of a "non-existent" minority community". European Journal of Turkish Studies. Retrieved 7 May 2015.) This matter awaits someone with access to Baltsiotis's and Tsoutsoumpis's books/periodicals. If the blue text comes from one source and the red text comes from another source, please what are those 2 sources? Your link from your words "the two sources" leads merely to a commentless Imgur image.

In your opinion: How much does merely putting two texts adjacent become synthesis of them? Should the "but" be replaced by a fullstop? Should other unrelated text be put between them? Did Tsoutsoumpis or Baltsiotis or whoever put those two texts adjacent in his book/periodical? Or what?

Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:16, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard: Athony, thank you for agreeing to mediate. (rest of my message is now removed, as the broken IMGUR link is finally working for me - my apologies for repeating the text from the image into my message. My aim was just to point out that these two phrases do not constitute OR as DevilWearsBrini claims, because the sources merely confirm that the Muslim Chams were enemies to the Christian Greeks) -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:02, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why the image isn't working. Either way, yes, the blue text comes from Baltsiotis whereas the red text comes from Tsotsoumpis.

Baltsiotis states: "Although Muslim Chams were not eager to fight on the side of the Ottoman army during the Balkan Wars, they were nevertheless treated by the Greek army as de facto enemies, while local Christians were enlisted in the Greek forces. For example, a few days after the occupation of the area of Chamouria by the Greek Army, 72 or 78 Muslim notables were executed by a Greek irregular military unit in the religiously mixed town of Paramythia, evidently accused of being traitors"

Tsoustoumpis states: "The tensions that had been building in the area finally exploded during the Balkan War of 1912-1913. The war took the form of brutal guerrilla fighting, waged primarily by local civilians who were armed by the Greek and Ottoman governments. In the autumn of 1912, Muslim bands raided villages as far north as the area of Pogoni in Ioannina; resulting in hundreds of Greek peasants abandoning their homes and seeking shelter in Corfu and Arta. Atrocities were widespread and no prisoners were taken from either side. Greek irregulars responded in kind from January 1913 onwards."

The red part should either come before or after the sentence from Baltsiotis, not in between. Right now material from both sources are synthesized to essentially state: "Muslim Chams were treated as enemies by the Greek army because before/during the Balkan wars, Muslim bands raided villages." Apart from being synth, it offers a reductionist view of the subject that entirely ignores the fact that during the first balkan war, "the primary objective of the Balkan combatants had been to eliminate potentially hostile populations through ethnic cleansing", and that "Muslim civilians of different nationality were the primary victims of this concerted campaign". DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:02, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To make my point clear, would SilentResident be against the following wording: "Muslim Chams were reluctant to side with the Ottomans, but already a few days after Chamouria was occupied by the Greek army, 72 or 78 Muslim notables were executed by a Greek irregular military unit. Thus, Muslim Chams sided with the Ottomans." DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry DevilWearsBrioni, but your arguments are invalid, because you're confusing the chronological order at which the events unfolded. According to Tsoutsoumpis, the formation of the irregular bands and the raids to Christian Greek villages by Muslim Chams predates the Greek response to them...

The chronological order, is very clearly mentioned by Tsoutsoumpis: 1) The Muslim Chams formed their irregular bands and raided Christian Greek villages ALREADY by Autumn 1912 (when the war broke out). 2) The Christian Greek response to these hostile Muslim Cham actions came later - around January 1913 (first month of next year).

Please don't confuse the chronology of the events to illustrate a false OR point. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Right, "The Greek response to these hostile Muslim Cham actions". This is exactly what I mean by reductionist view. Apart from the false premise that Muslim bands = Muslim Chams (you've previously stated that Muslim Chams numbered +100k, do you still stand by this?) I suppose Greece invading the region was a peaceful gesture? I suppose the common objective of the Balkan league to drive out Muslims from the region is irrelevant? The Greek army clearly acted in self-defense, right? Tsoutsoumpis does not mention the actions of the Greek army, whereas Baltsiotis does. Here's an alternative chronology for you:

Although Muslim Chams were not eager to fight on the side of the Ottoman army during the Balkan Wars, they were nevertheless treated by the Greek army as de facto enemies, while local Christians were enlisted in the Greek forces. For example, a few days after the occupation of the area of Chamouria by the Greek Army, 72 or 78 Muslim notables were executed by a Greek irregular military unit in the religiously mixed town of Paramythia, evidently accused of being traitors. During the Balkan War, in late 1912, when Muslim Chams were fighting on the side of the Ottoman Army, and Christian Chams on that of the Greek Army, several local conflicts emerged. While there is no Greek source describing the behavior of the Greek army against the Muslim population after they seized the area, there are several relevant descriptions in Albanian sources. There are only indirect (but clear) references to atrocities committed by the Greek army.

Notice that Baltsiotis makes no mention of why Muslim Chams were treated as enemies by the Greek army, although if one reads the rest of his paper it's clearly implied, and it certainly has nothing to do with village burnings that occurred during a bloody war which Greece initiated. Hint: "The existence of a region (Chamouria) whose population was roughly half Muslim and almost entirely Albanian speaking was considered a serious problem for the Greek state, which had to be confronted both practically and discursively."

Did Muslim Chams side with the Ottomans? Check

Did Muslim Chams burn villages during the war? Check

Did the Greek army treat Muslim Chams as an enemy because of village burnings that occurred during the war (or raids by Muslim bands in Autumn)? Synth DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

- Tsoustoumpis's words "Greek irregulars responded in kind from January 1913 onwards" seem to show that Tsoustoumpis had already decided that the Greek anti-Cham action was in retaliation for the Cham anti-Greek action. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, dear Anthony Appleyard. Furthermore, we shall not forget that Tsoutsoumpis's fieldwork on the Epirus theatre of the Balkan Wars is a more recent academic study than that of Baltsiotis, and Tsoutsoumpis has provided more detailed information about what happened in that war. While Baltsiotis does not has documented facts about why the Chams were treated as enemies by the Greeks, Tsoutsoumpis has been able to provide more precise information on what the Cham actions against the Greeks were, how the Greeks responded, and when these hostilities unfolded. Having a chronological order about the hostilities between different religious groups is vital to understanding the war and this by no means can be ignored just because DevilWearsBrioni wants to. However this is not the case here - the question in our case is if the sentence does constitute OR, which unfortunately does not.

For some reason that escapes me, DevilWearsBrioni will not accept any reasoning in regards to his OR claims. In fact, you are not the first Mediator to fail to see any validity in DevilWearsBrioni's OR claims. For the record, we have already discussed the exact same sentence on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, about 3 months ago, where our previous mediator, Iazyges, too has tried to explain to DevilWearsBrioni that his OR claims are invalid, but to no avail, as DevilWearsBrioni is still insisting about OR. (I don't know if this helps, but here is our discussion with Mediator Iazyges on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, just in case: [1] where he told DevilWearsBrioni that his claims do not constitute OR. - Note: if posting such a link here about previous mediations goes against any Mediation rules or disrupts the current resolution procedures, then please have my sincere apologies and feel free to ignore and/or remove it from my comment) -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:15, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard: Do you think that Muslim bands can be equated with Muslim Chams? The region was home to many other Muslims. Also, Tsoutsoumpis does not mention why the Greek army treated Muslim Chams as enemies, he's referring to Greek irregular activity in response to Muslim bands. For the record, all Muslims were in a sense considered enemies by the Greek state. Baltsiotis states that Muslim Chams were "not eager to fight on the side of the Ottomans, but were nonetheless treated as enemies". Is it OK to combine a sentence from Baltsiotis which concludes one thing, with another sentence from another scholar where the opposite is implied, to essentially nullify one scholar, i.e. Baltsiotis? With regards to the Greek army:

"During the Balkan War, in late 1912, when Muslim Chams were fighting on the side of the Ottoman Army, and Christian Chams on that of the Greek Army, several local conflicts emerged. While there is no Greek source describing the behavior of the Greek army against the Muslim population after they seized the area, there are several relevant descriptions in Albanian sources. There are only indirect (but clear) references to atrocities committed by the Greek army". Is this a response to the activity of Muslim bands?

"While Baltsiotis does not has documented facts about why the Chams were treated as enemies by the Greeks". He certainly does, do read the about situation prior to annexation. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see little point in seeing detailed fine implications in use of the word "bands"; the cause of using that word may have been merely that common nuisance: elegant variation. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:25, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard:, I do not understand why DevilWearsBrioni is trying now to deviate from his original OR claims and now find other excuses to maintain this OR case alive for as longer as possible, but I feel obliged to intervene now and note that his new argument that "the Muslim bands shouldn't be equated with Muslim Chams" is once again invalid, because the population figures for that time period by academic Erickson, Edward J. are very clear and indisputable. According to scholar Erickson, Edward J., during the Balkan War of 1912-1913, the Muslim Chams in fact constituted more than 95% of the total muslims in the region. Source: Erickson, Edward J. (2003). Defeat in detail: the Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912–1913. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 41. ISBN 978-0-275-97888-4. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem to matter how much I debunk this lie. Muslim Chams didn't number more than 25-30k, while the Janina Villayet was home to more than 200k Muslims. Why don't you post the specific part from the source so we can take a look at it?

Anthony: It may have, it may have not. I personally don't see why we should assume one over the other. Why not simply state that "Greek irregulars responded to anti-Greek raids by Muslim bands"? Moreover, does "Greek irregulars responded in kind" include the Greek army? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:45, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@DevilWearsBrioni: Your opinion is contradicted by the sources. Scholars such as Erickson, Edward J, and M. V. Sakkelariou, and Zafer Golen, all confirm that the Muslim Cham Albanians constituted the two-third of the region's total population (incl. Christians and Muslims) and more than 90% of the region's muslim population. Furthermore all scholars agree that the Muslim Cham Albanians were around 200.000 while the Muslim Ottoman Turks were around 10.000 or barely 20.000 people. I fail to see how the Cham Albanians constituted a minority when they were the majority of the muslim community of the Ioannina region. I am sorry dear DevilWearsBrioni but personal opinions are just that: personal opinions. Please can we stick to the facts and to the OR case and leave aside any distractions? :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:58, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite them. Go ahead, show us where it says that Muslim Chams numbered +200k. It shouldn't be that hard for you since you seem to have access to the sources. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:03, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, you are distracting the mediator from the OR case. Deviating our focus from the current case isn't going to help. I will cite the population sources if the Mediator asks for them, not because you want to derail discussion even further away from your original claim that the sentences, above in the first post, constitute SYNTH/OR. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:07, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First 1) you messed the chronological order, then 2) questioned Greek framing of Chams as enemies, now 3) you deviated to if bands are not formed by Muslim Chams, 4) and now into population figures being Cham-majority or some other but unknown ethnicity. Please stick to the discussion's subject. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:11, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You brought up sources because you wanted to clarify, but when asked to cite the specific part "I'm deviating". Since I know for a fact that you are lying (I have access to one of the sources as well), I know that the source does not state that Muslim Chams numbered +200k. One of the sources which you've repeatedly cited before states: "Thesprotia is located in north-western Greece, and before its incorporation in the Greek state it was a part of the vilayet of Ioannina. During the early 20th century the population was a little over 65,000 one-third of whom were Muslims." DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:20, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

<Facepalm>. What more I will hear now? Thesprotia is a sub-region of the Ioannina Vilayet, not an independent region. The Ioannina Villayet consisted of the following sub-regions; Preveza and Arta sub-regions to the south, Thesprotia sub-region to the west, and Ioannina sub-region (including Pogoni which is mentioned in the sentence on the first post of this talk) to the north. The population figures I gave here are about the Ioannina Villayet, not about Thesprotia only. The Ioannina Vilayet is the Epirote theatre of Balkan Wars, where the Chams fought the Greeks and their irregular bands raided and burned Greek villages.

Please, stick to the facts and do not manipulate the information. Manipulating the information by the academic scholars about an entire Villayet to illustrate a point about a sub-region of that Villayet, which does not even include the Pogoni and Ioannina areas, like how you did now, is not going to help you, only weakens even further your OR claims... -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:41, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that Muslim Cham Albanians included populations outside of Chamouria/Thesprotia? According to you, there were +200k Muslim Cham Albanians in Janina, which means that you equate every Muslim Albanian (Labs, etc) with Muslim Chams? How can you be this uninformed after having edited the article for several months? DevilWearsBrioni (talk)

@Anthony Appleyard:, the user DevilWearsBrioni insists in derailing the discussion completely from the original case of SYNTH of two phrases into discussions about regions and populations, despite my pleas for sticking to the subject. Your intervention is much needed. -- SILENTRESIDENT 11:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics of Chameria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria#Demographics. They constituted about 10 % of the Muslim population in Janina, not 95 %. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The demograpics you cited are about THESPROTIA, not about CHAMERIA as WHOLE or even IOANNINA. How hard is this for you to understand?? Could you please stop this nonsense and tell us why the two sentences constitute SYNTH? I am not here to discuss anything else, I am very kindly warning you for a last time to stick to the OR/SYNTH case! -- SILENTRESIDENT 11:23, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think numbers in an article about Chameria cites numbers about Thesprotia? Because Chameria ≈ Thesprotia. You never answered my question though, did Muslim Cham Albanians include populations outside of Chamouria/Thesprotia? It's a very simple question. And do you still believe that 95 % of Muslim population in Janina constituted of Muslim Chams? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:28, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the same article: "According to the 1913 Greek census, 25,000 Muslims were living at the time in the Chameria region." Where are the remaining +175k Muslim Chams? Outside Chameria?!? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:33, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OR issue #1 part 2

@DevilWearsBrioni: As SilentResident asks, please stick to the point. Dragging in the demography of wider and wider areas of c.1913 Epirus and Macedonia is not helping the discussion. You complained that Wikipedia editors had "synthed" two bits of information, saying in effect, saying "A is known, and B is known, therefore C can be proved", in breach of the WP:OR rule (a rule which I know well). But the author Tsoustoumpis had already linked these 2 bits of information in his book/article independently of Wikipedia, and he is Greek and should surely know his own people's history well, and what to relate to what, and what happened when and where. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 81: / Line 81: @@
 ::::Why do you think numbers in an article about Chameria cites numbers about Thesprotia? Because Chameria ≈ Thesprotia. You never answered my question though, did Muslim Cham Albanians include populations outside of Chamouria/Thesprotia? It's a very simple question. And do you still believe that 95 % of Muslim population in Janina constituted of Muslim Chams? [[User:DevilWearsBrioni|DevilWearsBrioni]] ([[User talk:DevilWearsBrioni|talk]]) 11:28, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 ::::From the same article: ''"According to the 1913 Greek census, 25,000 Muslims were living at the time in the Chameria region."'' Where are the remaining +175k Muslim Chams? Outside Chameria?!? [[User:DevilWearsBrioni|DevilWearsBrioni]] ([[User talk:DevilWearsBrioni|talk]]) 11:33, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
+====OR issue #1 part 2====
+*{{ping|DevilWearsBrioni}} As SilentResident asks, please stick to the point. Dragging in the demography of wider and wider areas of c.1913 Epirus and Macedonia is not helping the discussion. You complained that Wikipedia editors had "synthed" two bits of information, saying in effect, saying "A is known, and B is known, therefore C can be proved", in breach of the [[WP:OR]] rule (a rule which I know well). But the author Tsoustoumpis had already linked these 2 bits of information in his book/article independently of Wikipedia, and he is Greek and should surely know his own people's history well, and what to relate to what, and what happened when and where. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 12:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)