Jump to content

Talk:Medical uses of silver

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ThomasMcLeod (talk | contribs) at 05:04, 30 November 2016 (→‎Utterly Biased: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

References Bug

Hello, This is my first time posting on a wiki talk so here goes,

I just wanted to point out that due to either a human error or a technical glitch, reference 4 and 16 are exactly the same with the same doi and url. I was unsure of how to edit this and figured I should inform someone of this before I make it worse. :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethiom101 (talk • contribs) 09:19, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Disruption

In view of the recent disruption by IPs, I have requested semi-protection for this article. Alexbrn (talk) 11:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I invited discussion in the TALK section that I added above. Did anyone read it? None of you added a jot to the discussion so I assume not. I would have preferred to have debated this here but ultimately I had no other choice than to present my case as edits to the article.Bolt376 (talk) 10:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)124.169.213.156 (talk) 11:29, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What the heck? Now the section above has been deleted. Bolt376 (talk) 10:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.213.156 (talk) 11:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is archived because it constituted a WP:PERSONAL ATTACK. You may restore it, but I would suggest you remove reference to any fabricated agenda behind certain users edits. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 11:35, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Reintroduced hopefully without anything you might consider to be a personal attack. Although i doubt anything of the sort existed.Bolt376 (talk) 10:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)124.169.213.156 (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lansdown quote and false 'colloidal silver banned for consumption' claim.

CFCF has introduced a raft of edits concerning colloidal silver. It doesn't look like he's a fan. He's even added a picture/info box to draw attention to this. Well OK, thats fair as long as its accurate. But its not. His reference for his edit that the 'selling of colloidal silver for consumption' has been banned is a simplistic foreign language site. It looks like a 'silver for dummies' website to me. CFCF says its a Govt site but who knows? I'm not a Swedish reader. Clearly this is why Wikipedia states that English language references are 'preferred'. In the case of contentious medical issues I think that should say 'compulsory', but anyway, even when the site is translated it simply DOES NOT SUPPORT HIS CLAIM. It just says colloidal silver cannot be sold as a 'dietary supplement'. (In other words, medical claims cannot be made). It does not say it cannot be sold at all. If I was to bottle the stuff and sell it as a thirst quencher (its 99.999999% water after all), or with no health claims at all, then this would be perfectly legal..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Have I won this point? It seems you are no longer attempting to include this claim..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.213.156 (talk) 11:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For cryin out loud! You've put this bogus claim back in again! Look, you are misunderstanding the law. I've translated the reference and it simply does not say what you are claiming. If you think it does then paste the words right here so we call all read them. If you cant, then remove the claim and the reference, or I will..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)124.169.213.156 (talk) 12:32, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Dont worry , I will do it myself.. I assume this is the reference text from your Swedish website.... "No, colloidal silver may no longer be present in food supplements, but are marketed and sold today as "water purification product," the company formerly sold it as a dietary supplement". The Google translation is a little confusing but it does not mean that silver cannot be sold for consumption, as you seem to think. It just means that it can no longer be labelled as a 'dietary supplement' or health drink. You could call it a 'water purification product' if you wanted to but thats not compulsory either. This is basically exactly the same rule as applies in the US and Australia and probably elsewhere. Colloidal silver can be sold for consumption but you can't put medical claims on the label. To comply with the law, most companies therefore simply put nothing significant on the label..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)124.169.213.156 (talk) 12:56, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My other concern is CFCF's selective editing and moving of the Lansdown quote. Removing words such as 'in the human body' 'ingestion' and 'inhalation' is significant. The full quote has been in the article for years. Why was this editing done all of a sudden and why is it placed in such an illogical position when it is relevant to all silver medical applications, not just (or not even) colloidal silver. This editing does not improve the article. .. unless af course an anti-colloidal silver bias is intended..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.242.87 (talk) 03:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

have you read MEDRSWikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have. What are you specifically referring to?.Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)124.169.213.156 (talk) 12:14, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well beyond reading it, have you considered applying it?
First of all — the only thing so far you have argued is semantics, and noone else here agrees with you. Second, it is downright rediculous to say I've misunderstood the source claiming it is not for consumption in Sweden, as it is my native language (I can provide you with more detailed translations if you wish). Third, if it is not allowed as a food additive, in medicine, or as a nutritional supplement — that equates with "not for consumption". The entire premise of your argument rests on a wildly partisan interpretation of pretty much everything. Please WP:DROP THE STICK, or risk getting banned. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 14:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want your translation thank you. I want you to copy and paste the exact text from your reference to this section for us all to see. So far I have seen nothing on those references that support your claim. Banning the sale of colloidal silver as a 'dietary supplement etc' does not mean the same as a total ban on the sale of colloidal silver for consumption. The root of your confusion is a misunderstanding of Codex Alimentarius. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alimentarius) These are EU food standards and labelling laws adopted in 2012. They affected hundreds of vitamin and mineral 'suppliments', not just colloidal silver. But they are not food banning laws. No ingredient or product was actually banned for consumption although that seems to be a common misconception. As I stated above these laws are similar to the FDA guidelines in the US. Colloidal silver can be freely sold but it cannot be called a medicine or drug. Colloidal silver can be bottled and sold by the gallon for consumption as long as no health claims are made on the bottle. This is not semantics. You just have your facts wrong. Please clarify your references and stop throwing around threats to ban me.124.169.213.156 (talk) 16:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Furthest down on the linked page is a clarification that colloidal silver is not allowed as a food additive. These rules differ from the EU-wide ban on colloidal silver as a dietary supplement. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 16:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Disallowing it as a food/dietary supplement does not mean it is banned for consumption. It means you can't put it in food and claim that food has a supplement that has a health benefit. It can still be bottled and sold for consumption as colloidal silver as long as no health claims are made.
Go into any health food store in Sweden and you will find it.
A simple search on Google finds Swedish stores selling it. Heres 3 examples...
http://re-fresh.se/sortiment/kolloidalt-silver-1000-ml
http://shop.designed4web.com/product/premium-quality/
https://www.halsokosthuset.se/sv/12-kolloidalt-silver-silvervatten
You do not understand this law correctly. At the very least your reference is contradictory and confusing and, in this situation, difficult for English readers to judge its value. This is why Wikipedia guidelines say foreign language references are not preferred. You should remove the reference until you get support for it. No-one else is supporting you on this as far as I can see. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.210.136.41 (talk) 23:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the description in each of those three links, none of them is sold for consumption. They are all labelled for water purification, which is legal in Sweden. The citation actually discusses this. Jytdog (talk) 23:14, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, heres a typical translation... "Mix two teaspoons of silver water per liter of drinking water you want to disinfect." So clearly it is not banned for consumption. They use the word 'disinfect' because that is the only 'benefit' they can legally claim. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.210.136.41 (talk) 23:34, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The content is accurate. it is not sold for consumption, but to purify water. Jytdog (talk) 00:09, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, well it isn't allowed as a disinfectant, should report that page to the authorities. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 11:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong again. According to your own reference '54' It CAN be sold as a disinfectant.. (Question... "Why is silver used in water treatment products when it may not be used in food supplements?" Answer ... "It is then considered as a disinfectant and such may be sold without approval"). The company is doing nothing illegal. They cannot call it a food supplement (because its medical benefits have not been proven) but they CAN call it a disinfectant or sterilizer for drinking water. Your 'ban on sales for consumption' is imaginary. It would clearly be ridiculous to put such a restriction on a drinking water sterilizer. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.210.136.41 (talk) 12:43, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Its being sold as a water purifier you can consume. (Like camper's water purification tablets for example. Nothing illegal about it..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.210.136.41 (talk) 06:34, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It does not support CFCF's wikipedia edit that colloidal silver is banned for consumption. It can be consumed if its only claimed benefit is as a water sterilizer. If it was truly banned they wouldn't even be able to say that. And it can be sold to drink straight and undiluted as long as health benefits are not claimed. (Heres another Swedish website to prove the point. Translation will show they advise taking 'teaspoons' per day. http://ionplus.se/)
I maintain that you have overreached by claiming colloidal silver is banned for consumption in Sweden or anywhere else. The references you have used do no mention the word 'consumption' anywhere as far as I can see. I have asked a couple of times that you copy and paste to here the exact words (in Swedish) that you interpret as proving there is a ban on consumption. If you intend to use a foreign language reference to edit an English language Wikipedia I think that's a fair request..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.210.136.41 (talk) 00:43, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you are maintaining; you have repeated it several times. no one agrees with you. Jytdog (talk) 01:00, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If it was banned for consumption they would legally have to put "Not for consumption" or "Poison" or "Do not swallow" or something similar on the bottle. Sweden has strong labelling laws. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.210.136.41 (talk) 01:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but it is not legal to sell it for consumption, even if consuming it isn't illegal. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 11:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thats nonsense. Swedish/EU compliant labelling laws are strict. If sales for consumption were illegal they would HAVE to put that on the bottle. They don't because its perfectly legal to sell it for consumption as plain old 'Colloidal silver' as long as they dont make any medical/health/supplement statements..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) 118.210.136.41 (talk) 12:43, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First of all your above link is to a product by Ionosil — which is banned from the industry (since 2015). Second, it only has to be labelled like that if it is poisonous. What we're debating here is whether the rules: not for use in food additives, not for use in dietary supplements, and not for disinfection — equate to not for consumption. I think it's pretty straight forward.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 15:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You just cannot get the fact right can you. Ionosil is not banned. They broke the law (regarding medical claims), they were fined, and they have changed their advertising to comply with the law. The trouble is you are trying to understand the law by reading and referencing two simplistic 'Q and A' style consumer websites. They are just plain inadequate. The law is more complicated than that. Colloidal silver is banned from being sold as a 'dietary supplement or dietary additive' because those terms have specific 'medical' meanings. But if it is simply called a 'drink', with no claims of benefits, then it is perfectly legal to be sold for consumption..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) 118.211.20.183 (talk) 21:26, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is absolutely false. Silver colloid can only possibly be added to a drink, you can never have a "pure silver colloid drink". That is a direct result not of any nations law, but of the laws of physics — in the same way that pure alcohol cannot be a drink (at least not under normal atmospheric pressures). Pure colloid is an oxymoron, because it necessarily consists of a medium and a soluble substance — and in fact it is the silver nanoparticles that are banned. And I sincerely hope you are not advocating that we consider pure silver food. If you are I would suggest reevaluating your world view (in fact I suggest this based on your previous comments too), Wikipedia is the wrong forum for this type of discussion. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:42, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your responses are just becoming more hysterical as this proceeds. Your above answer is completely irrelevant. I am trying to explain the facts of the legislation to you. I cant put it much simpler than this: If it was banned they would HAVE to put 'Not for consumption' on the label. Your earlier answer about this that they dont have to put 'Not for consumption' on the label because 'its not actually illegal to drink it' is laughable. By that logic manufacturers of drain cleaner wouldnt have to put 'Do not drink' on their labels label either because its also true its not actually illegal to drink that stuff either..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.211.20.183 (talk) 23:08, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Carl like the IP I don't understand what you are saying about "not for disinfection" - the source clearly says (via google translate): "Why is silver used in water treatment products when it may not be used in food supplements? It is then considered as a disinfectant and such may be sold without approval. Most disinfectants that are already on the market may continue to be sold until the ongoing European review process of the silver is completed. Then the judge to whether these products have acceptable use from environmental and health." I agree with the rest of what you are saying. The content in our article is OK because disinfecting is not consuming, and the IP has no leg here. Just wanted to clarify that point. Jytdog (talk) 23:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jytdog — If you look at the second source from the Chemicals Agency it states: "You may not currently use or sell colloidal silver as a pesticide or disinfectant." The first source refers us to the Chemicals Agency for rules concerning non-food usage, and that is what they say. Hope that clarifies things. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 13:14, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Carl, both sources are clear that you cannot sell colloidal silver in food or as a supplement and so as far as this goes the content is good and the IP is wrong. The stuff about use to disinfect is weird - the food authority makes it clear that existing products for disinfecting water can stay on the market at least until the EU review is done but the chemical authority seems to say that it cannot be sold even for that. Obviously it stlll is being sold, so something is funky about what the chemical authority has there. Maybe they mean you cannot introduce a new product for disinfecting (and old ones are "grandfathered" at least til the EU review is done)? Jytdog (talk) 18:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jytdog: The food authority makes some vague statements about use as a "water cleaner", but directs further questions to the Chemicals Agency (KEMI), which is the authority for chemicals. KEMI's statement is what matters when it comes to disinfectant use, and they're clear that it isn't allowed (actually going far enough to say that it not only isn't allowed in marketing, but not allowed, period). The ban on colloidal silver as an additive is pretty recent (late 2015), thus the change in marketing has only been around for a few months. Therefor it is quite possible KEMI was caught off guard, and haven't enforced the ban yet. Now this isn't official, but from what I've heard there is an ongoing investigation into these marketing practices. It seems to me that the only way selling colloidal silver in Sweden is for decorative use. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:03, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The 'disinfectant' issue is sidetracking you. Its not actually relevant to this discussion because its only one small clause of the legislation. The important clause (not mentioned in Carl's references) is that CS (and all other vitamins/minerals etc) can still be sold for consumption without restriction as long as medical/nutrition claims are not made. Its basically the same legislation as in the US..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.211.20.183 (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carl it seems like the fullout ban is WP:TOONEW if the government sources are not aligned. All that matters here is what reliable sources say; that matters for everyone. Again I am good on the "cannot be sold for consumption" content. Please do not try to add it is banned for disinfecting too until there are very strong and clear sources and no remaining contradictions, as there are now. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First of all we have to take into account which regulation is issued by which authority, I don't consider this to be especially controversial. Secondly, the Food Agency explicitly refers us to the Chemicals Agency for regulation concerning "water cleaning". Now "water cleaning" is not clearly defined, so I cannot say if disinfection is part of all of it, but disinfection is not permitted — and there is no controversy or contradiction surrounding this (the text is very clear). However, there is some controversy surrounding "non-disinfectant water cleaning", which I have not and do not plan upon adding or at all discussing in this article, as it would only cause confusion. There is no mention of use in for example chelation therapy, which is one example of "non-disinfectant water cleaning" (however I'm not very convinced how the physics behind this hold up). Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 05:15, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
came here to help. unwatching. Jytdog (talk) 05:34, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Look up 'Codex Alimentarius' in Wikipedia. Its the European standar that Sweden agreed to and upon which Carls reference is derived. Here's a quote....... "The text does not seek to ban supplements, but subjects them to labeling and packaging requirements, etc... " Its not about banning consumption, its about banning false and misleading labelling!!!. You can freely sell it as a 'drink' as long as you don't claim it has health benefits. Furthermore, if CS was banned for consumption it would HAVE to say so on the bottle. .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.211.20.183 (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The reason you are not convincing me, is that you brought no references to support your claims and as I already stated I do not agree with your reading of the existing references. I will not be responding to you further, until you bring references that are on point. See also WP:BLUDGEON; we may indeed have to take action against you if you continue repeating yourself. Jytdog (talk) 00:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Carls reference says this.... "EFSA (the European Agency for Food Safety) has not been able to evaluate whether dietary supplements containing colloidal silver is safe to consume, partly due to the base is incomplete."
The actual EFSA Journal published on Jan 2 2016 (Page 2) says this... "Silver (E 174) is authorised as a food additive in the European Union (EU) in accordance with Annex II to Regulation (EC) No 1333/2008.4"
You can download the full 64 page journal by clicking the pdf. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2903/j.efsa.2016.4364/full — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.211.20.183 (talk) 01:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC) .Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
as has already been stated, Sweden's regulation is more restrictive. Jytdog (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? I just shot a cannon through the reference Carl used to support his edit in the Wikipedia article. His reference is discredited. I should not have to do anymore than that to have the edit removed. Anyway, wheres the evidence Sweden is more restrictive? We only have Carls sayso on that..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.211.20.183 (talk) 02:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, there are citations from two independent agencies (see both, as well as my comment to Jytdog above). Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 13:21, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have already demolished your first reference (54) and your second reference (55) has nothing to do with consumption. Here it is IN FULL....
" What if I want to sell colloidal silver as a biocidal product?
It depends on what you use it for. You are not in the current situation using or selling colloidal silver as a pesticide, for example, for ::::::disinfection. This is because the substance is not authorized as an active substance (or is under evaluation as an active substance in pesticides - biocidal products). For use in medical devices, cosmetics or pharmaceuticals, you contact Drug Administration on which rules apply. For use in food supplements is the NFA which is the responsible authority."
It has absolutely nothing to do with 'consumption' other than saying thats some other agency's responsibility? It not even remotely close to being a suitable reference..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC) 118.211.20.183 (talk) 13:59, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Only if by demolished you mean: argued beside the point and applied false and inaccurate logic. Listen, you're not gaining any traction here, and I would again suggest you kindly WP:DROPTHESTICK. This will be the last time I try to explain things to you, but if I summarize:

  • Not a food additive
  • Not a food
  • Not a water-disinfectant
  • Not a medicine

Given these, how can you argue that it can be sold for consumption? If you do not leave this topic alone I or someone else will report you. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 14:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have shown that your two references for the claim that 'CS is banned for consumption' are utterly inadequate. If you don't understand that then there is no point continuing. I have referred this to DocJames and will comment no further until he returns.118.211.20.183 (talk) 14:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC) Your summary doesn't even make sense by the way, because we have already established that it IS allowed as a food additive, and it IS allowed as a water-disinfectant..Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)118.211.20.183 (talk) 14:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have now joined Wikipedia. My name is Bolt376. I have added my name to the paragraphs above that I wrote.Bolt376 (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This Swedish Government site 'The Medical Products Agency' (Sweden's FDA?) explains the legal case against the brand 'Ionsil' but also clearly states there is no general ban against colloidal silver as long there are no claims that it treats or mitigates disease. The site was updated 2015/06/12. https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=https://lakemedelsverket.se/OVRIGA-SIDOR/Vanliga-fragor-om-kolloidalt-silver/&prev=search (Yes, I did say I wouldnt comment again but I think this one was just too good to leave out.) Bolt376 (talk) 12:46, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now this page has cited three separate agencies that all state that the use is banned within their area of jurisdiction (the Foods Agency for food and food additives, the Chemicals Agency for use as a biocide or disinfectant, and the Medical Products Agency for use in medicines, both alternative and functional). How damn hard is it to understand that the relevant authority is the one that matters for each type of use!? The ban is relatively recent, but it is extremely clear that it is pretty damn watertight! We're not stating that colloidal silver is a banned substance, just that it isn't allowed for these purposes — so based on that: What the hell is your argument? Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 15:03, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your first source ONLY says it cannot be sold as 'dietary supplement'. Your second source is about disinfectants so its irrelevant to this issue (except that it is conflict with parts of the first source anyway). The third source (I added it) confirms that the restriction are to do with medical claims only. None of the sources say it is banned 'generally' for consumption. Your problem is that you do not understand the legal definition of a 'Dietary Supplement'.Bolt376 (talk) 22:12, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I should also point out that I think you are in violation of Wikipedia foreign language sources guidelines. You are supposed to provide an accurate translation in English of the exact quote, not simply link to the source.Bolt376 (talk) 01:55, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What proposed text are we discussing? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the colloidal silver 'Info Box'. Namely.... "A bottle of colloidal silver. It may be illegal to market as preventing or treating cancer, and in some jurisdictions illegal to sell colloidal silver for consumption.[54]" I don't disagree that its illegal to treat cancer but I contend that the claim that it is illegal to sell for consumption is incorrect because Carl misunderstands the meaning of 'dietary supplement'. Bolt376 (talk) 03:49, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also of concern is the Lansdown quote in the top section (which has been in the article since at least 2013) has been changed from the exact quote ..."Silver exhibits low toxicity in the human body, and minimal risk is expected due to clinical exposure by inhalation, ingestion, or dermal application" to this reduced version which I think is less informative and does not improve the article..... " Silver generally has low toxicity and minimal risk is expected for use in approved medical applications" (Although I must now admit I'm not sure when or by whom this was originally altered. Maybe it was you Doc? But anyway CFCF Carl put it back in when I tried to restore the full quote.). Bolt376 (talk) 04:17, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that that text does not belong as an image caption. Would be good to find an EN ref for the claim.
I dont think Carl has even provided an unambiguous SWEDISH reference for the claim! Bolt376 (talk) 09:39, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you could always try an RfC. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 09:53, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not its 'legal' should be pretty easy to establish with suitable references. It's a simple matter of fact, not opinion. Its legal or it isn't. The references provided by Carl do not provide references to the original source of the legal question.Bolt376 (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
With requesting to quoting or paraphrasing, we should definitely do the latter per policy. The ref is only about "Silver in health care" not altmed us. Therefore mentioning "medical applications" is important as usually it is used within impregnated devices rather than given by mouth. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:54, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding paraphrasing here. I disagree but will go along with you. The shortened version is vague. "It exhibits low toxicity..." In what? Humans, fish, the soil? It can be used in "approved medical applications". Whats an approved application? Is a layman reader supposed to understand that? Should there be a link to explain what that term means? However, its especially confusing the way its positioned after the colloidal silver quote. I propose putting it on a line of its own.Bolt376 (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bolt376 — Please stop removing the text or we will have to lock the page again. Disruption and ignoring what now 3 editors have told you is grounds for being banned from Wikipedia. You have already violated policy, I would suggest you refrain from doing so again.
In essence your argument is entirely flawed, there is no requirement for a translation to be posted: just that it be provided upon request. In the above discussion I offered such a translation, which you promptly denied. Regardless, I did translate it (you can go up and check). If there is any remaining confusion I am willing to translate yet other portions of the text upon request. However if the confusion is based upon you choosing to use Google translate in defiance of what translations have been provided, that is not my problem and I suggest you start an RfC. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I will also point out that the policy section you cite is about quotes, this is not a quote. WP:GAMING is a serious offence. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:15, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want your translation Carl because I want to see the original quote first. I requested it before. You refused to post it. I'm requesting it again, as the guidelines say I am entitled to do. When we have the quote we can THEN compare it to your translation. Bolt376 (talk) 11:40, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What quote? There is no quote, we're not quoting anything here?! Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 13:05, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I mean that I want the exact words or sentence, or couple of sentences, in Swedish, from your reference that you translate as meaning the same as 'banned for consumption'. I want to know which Swedish words you are looking at. Then we can get an exact English translation and take it from there. Then anyone can see if your translation or paraphrase into 'banned for consumption' is accurate. Bolt376 (talk) 14:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I've done exactly this before, but here you go:
From the Swedish Food Agency: [1]

Är det tillåtet att sälja kosttillskott med kolloidalt silver?
Nej, kolloidalt silver får inte längre ingå i kosttillskott, men marknadsförs och säljs numera som "vattenreningsprodukt" av företag som tidigare sålde det som kosttillskott.
Det är kemikalieinspektionen som ansvarar för kontrollen av vattenreningsprodukter och därmed även av kollodialt silver.

Translation:

Is it allowed to sell dietary supplements with colloidal silver?
No, collodial silver is no longer allowed in dietary supplements, but is marketed and sold as a "water cleaning product" from companies which previously sold it as a dietary supplement.
It is the Chemicals Agency which is in charge of controlling water cleaning products and therefor also colloidal silver.

So, since a "water cleaning product" is somewhat curiously defined, one can go to the Chemical Agency (KEMI), which has a pretty clear statement: [2]

Du får inte i dagsläget använda eller sälja kolloidalt silver som bekämpningsmedel till exempel för desinfektion.

Translates to

You may not currently use or sell colloidal silver as a pesticide for use in for example disinfection.

I've been very strict in the translation and phrases such as "for use in for example" are acceptable in Swedish, though they may seem weird in English. I've preserved this to maintain full integrity of the translation.
Now, stop this nonsense. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 14:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Your translation of it is probably correct but your understanding of it is almost certainly wrong. Heres the key quote...

Is it allowed to sell dietary supplements with colloidal silver?
No, collodial silver is no longer allowed in DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS.

The term 'dietary supplements' has a specific legal meaning. Heres the US meaning for example.( http://hprc-online.org/dietary-supplements/opss/operation-supplement-safety-OPSS/opss-frequently-asked-questions-faqs-1/what2019s-the-definition-of-a-dietary-supplement). The EU has similar laws, I quoted Codex Alimentarius earlier. Basically it is an ingredient that 'adds' to your diet or health such as a nutrient or vitamin. Colloidal silver has no proven health benefits so it can't be called a 'supplement'. But it does not mean it is banned in toto. Its almost exactly the same law as in the US. Bolt376 (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is another clause banning it as a food additive as well. We've been through this. This is obstructionist. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:11, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well (A) You haven't quoted it. (B) It says exactly the opposite. It IS legal. (It applies to things like silver coatings on chocolates), and (C) FOOD ADDITIVE also has a specific legal definition. The major inadequacy of your reference website is that it does not provide 'key references' for the original source of these legallity issues. A comparable website in the US, the NIH for example, provides key references for significant issues. https://nccih.nih.gov/health/silver. Bolt376 (talk) 22:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, just stop it. I'm not wasting more time here, and I'm not repeating myself for the 10th time just so that you can say that you don't want to understand. Your objection about key references is absolute nonsense, and you know it. These are the agencies that make the rules, the NIH does not — which is why it directs you to the rules (e.g. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxfaqs/tf.asp?id=538&tid=97). Either start an RfC or drop it. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 08:17, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is a new low in what constitutes a suitable reference as far as I'm concerned. But I'm over this too. You're a brick wall Carl and I'm done with banging my head. Bolt376 (talk) 09:03, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Picture Box of Colloidal Ag

This picture box adds nothing to the article except as an advertisement for the company that makes and sells the stuff; placebo is not a "benefit"; Legality adds nothing as it is different globally. In the USA it is illegal to sell CS as an OTC drug for any disease. I prefer to just delete it. As a minimum, I would block the company name, change placebo to "none" and put "varies" for Legality. But, really, let us just get rid of it. Desoto10 (talk) 05:05, 7 November 2016 (UTC)Desoto10 (talk) 05:17, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Removed the spammy watermark from the image. Placebo is the same as none. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:36, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Desoto10—If you give a quality source saying that it is illegal in the US we will gladly include that. It is essentially not allowed in the whole EU as a supplement, but the Swedish position is somewhat unique in that it disallows nearly every possible use—so I think it is relevant for the infobox. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 09:01, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The previous version made it look like the 'consumption illegality' was world wide and the Swedish reference was simply an example of this. In fact there is no illegality outside of Sweden so such a universal ban should not be implied. I have altered it to make it clear the ban (which is misunderstood anyway) applies to Sweden only. Bolt376 (talk) 04:20, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Utterly Biased

The section on "Alternative Medicine" is obviously a hit piece designed to discredit the subject. Statements such as "There is no evidence that colloidal silver treats or prevents any medical condition" come right out of big pharma PR playbook. This is an arrogant, logically unprovable statement and rings of illegitimacy. Stringing together a series of biased sources proves nothing. It's common knowledge that MSM sources such as LA Times are pharma-funded, and the FDA and similar agencies are collude with industry to quash competition. Nobody is fooled by this nonsense. ThomasMcLeod (talk) 05:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Medical_uses_of_silver&oldid=752231162"