Talk:Killian documents controversy/Archive 7

• Archive 1 up to September 22, 2004
• Archive 2 through end of 2004 (includes article name vote)
• Archive 3 up to April 15, 2005
• Archive 4 up to December 2005
• Archive 5 up to March 2006

Archived talk page through March 2006

Typo to fix on the main page please. George Bush was in the AIR National Guard, not the National Guard. Do you really need a cite for this fix?

Second, I don't know if you have a list of the items that prove the forgery aspect? If so, you can add one more. All US military records since WWI (YES, World War I!) are done the same way when filed. They have two holes punched in the top and are put into those funny folders with the metal "straps" to hold them down. My wife held a job a few years ago transcribing some records from as far back as WWI and they were all like that. Yet the Killian documents did NOT have these holes, and the letterhead text was not effected by the "holes" that did not exist.

Also, one of the proofs of forgery was that the text lined up in Microsoft Word. I can further clarify that. The text lined up in Word 2000 or later, but NOT in Word 97 or earlier. (I tried it both ways). Thus, the computer that created the documents had at least Word 2000 or later on it.

You can wiggle all you want, but to the trained observer, these are forged documents, and not even particularly good forged documents. There are just so many things wrong with them.

Guys this cite is bogus. (It has been thouroughly debunked before, and the author was forging his own images to prove his points). I will have to look to find the debunking, but this guy's tenure was in doubt after it was reported to his academic superiors.

"David Hailey, PhD. The Second of Two Examinations of the "Killian Memos". Retrieved on 2006-03-20. "

Excellent work

Just wanted to say that the writers did an excellent job on this. Very unbiased, very balanced, well sourced and researched. If this comment is inappropriate please delete it, but really guys and gals, excellent work in creating an ideal entry.66.65.57.234 16:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thatcher131 02:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Blanking the conspiracy section

Hi, 70.85.195.225 (talk · contribs). I do not agree with your edit on Killian documents and I especially do not agree with your use of a misleading edit summary. Previously 207.44.237.158 (talk · contribs) had blanked an entire section without discussing it on the talk page. When you reverted to the blanked version, you said you were reverting valid edits and accused the reverting editor of stalking. Do you have some relationship with 207.44.237.158 (talk · contribs)? In any case, JoshuaZ was reverting a wholesale section blanking and your edit summary was misleading.

I happen to agree that the section on conspiracy theories is not up to wikipedia's ideal for an article. While it is true the conspiracy theories were mentioned on blogs and that seems to be the justifaction for including them, I am interested in pursuing an edit that would be confined to conspiracy theories that were remarked upon in the mainstream media and/or by notable politicians, and not source any blogs. Would you care to discuss this on the talk page before making another big edit? Thanks. Thatcher131 14:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The ES was NOT misleading and the edit WAS valid. Also, Bebeck needs to stop calling everybody with an IP "shran". That's just a fraudulent excuse he's using to trump up phony accusations. The section which was deleted has no citations and is nothing but original research -and it's POV too. Either clean it up or it's going to keep getting deleted. That section is nothing but uncited speculative conjecture.

• • I'm not particularly interested in the "shran" business other than to note that an awful lot of Texas IP addresses have very similar edit patterns and article interests. After checking JoshuaZ's talk page when he reverted you I found out about it and did list two IP addresses at WP:ANI as suspects, but I also noted that I was willing to try and work with the editor on this article, and I have no interest in becoming part of a larger conflict. If you are acknowledging that you are the same editor referenced above then whether or not you are shran, you are certainly editing from multiple IP addresses which could be seen as an abuse of the process. I am also somewhat concerned about your attitude and expressed desire to continue blanking the page.
  • Regarding the conspiracy section, you say it has no citations but I count 10 footnotes. While it is not appropriate for wikipedians to insert their own speculations into articles it is perfectly reasonable to summarize the speculations of others, no matter how fevered and silly they may be. In this particular case I have two problems with the article. One is that the Rove section is about 5 times longer than the CBS section. The second problem is that while bloggers were an important part of the story regarding the documents authenticity and had a major impact on the outcome of events, there is no special reason to report the conspiracy theories of either democratic or republican bloggers. I do think, however, that we should report about people such as Maurice Hinchey and Terry McAuliffe who are national figures. Frankly I think their spouting of Roving conspiracies makes them look bad. (I direct you to Robert Stanek, an author of bad sci-fi who floods amazon with hundreds of glowing reviews for his books, published by a vanity press he owns. When it became apparent that the article was going to make him look bad, because we were including verifiable negative information about him, he and/or his supporters tried to AfD it. Truth is a two-edged sword, and I think that if public Democratic Party figures want to look foolish we should not stand in their way.)
  • My plan is to post a revised section here in talk and solicit comments, and do a replacement after a few days based on consensus. I intend only to cite such conspiracy theories as are made by notable public figures (not bloggers) and reported in the mainstream press. If it is verifable that they said it, it is worth noting as part of the story, albeit in a more abbreviated format. Thatcher131 03:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

that sounds better that the gunk in there now

Proposed changes to "Explanatory theories" section

Below is my proposed rewrite to the conspiracy section. Regarding the "pro-Bush side" there are a lot of blogger and op-ed opinions but I think it is best to leave it with the panel report's final conclusion. I know there were a lot of op-eds and such afterwards criticizing the panel, including some mainstream papers, but at some point we have to put it to rest and a list of dueling editorials does not seem to be in the spirit of an encyclopedia. Regarding the "Karl Rove mastermind" theories I focused on Terry McAuliffe and Maurice Hinchey—speculation by national political figures is noteworthy, especially when it gets mentioned in many newspapers; speculation by bloggers is probably not. (unlike the authenticity question, where bloggers drove much of the investigation, here it is speculation that ultimately went nowhere. McAuliffe's press release blaming Rove and Stone is no longer at the DNC's web site so I sourced it from both the Washington Times and the Daily Kos. Same thing with Hinchey, his remarks are transcribed on a bunch of web sites so I sourced it from both a conservative (Opinion Journal) and a liberal (Kos) web site.

Please leave comments below. If there are no objections I will switch the sections in about a week. (I will be offline from Mar 23-27) Thatcher131 01:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Was the story politically motivated?

Some critics of CBS and Dan Rather argued that by proceeding with the story when the documents had not been authenticated, CBS was exhibiting liberal bias and attempting to influence the outcome of the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election. The Thornburgh-Boccardi report found that producer Mary Mapes' contacting of Joe Lockhart was "highly inappropriate," and that it, "crossed the line as, at a minimum, it gave the appearance of a political bias and could have been perceived as a news organizations' assisting a campaign as opposed to reporting on a story." After interviewing Mapes, Rather and the other CBS staffers involved in the story, it was the view of the panel that the September 8 broadcast was not motivated by politics but, "primarily…a rush to air that overwhelmed the proper application of CBS News Standards."

Some liberals and Democratic critics of the president suggested that the memos were produced by the Bush campaign to discredit the media's reporting on Bush's National Guard service. The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Terry McAuliffe, suggested that the memos might have originated with long-time Bush strategist, Karl Rove. He told reporters on September 10, "I can tell you that nobody at the Democratic National Committee or groups associated with us were involved in any way with these documents," he said. "I'm just saying that I would ask Karl Rove the same question." Two weeks later, McAuliffe suggested that GOP consultant Roger Stone and Republican National Committee chairman Ed Gillespie were involved, saying in a press release, "Will Ed Gillespie or the White House admit today what they know about Mr. Stone's relationship with these forged documents? Will they unequivocally rule out Mr. Stone's involvement? Or for that matter, others with a known history of dirty tricks, such as Karl Rove or Ralph Reed?" At a community forum in Utica, New York in 2005, US representative Maurice Hinchey (D-NY) repeated the claim that the bogus documents originated with Karl Rove, saying "They set that up with those false papers. Why did they do it? They knew that Bush was a draft dodger…once they did that, then it undermined everything else about Bush's draft dodging." No proof was ever offered that the memos originated with the Bush campaign and Rove and Stone have denied any involvement.

leave comments on proposed edit here

I just spotted that one of the references in the article as it is is a blog post titled "Just cut out their tongues." Good heavens. I'm not going to wait until I get back online next week to sub in the new section. If there are no objections I will sub it on Wednesday before I leave. Thatcher131 07:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment. These paragraphs are better than what currently resides in "Explanatory theories," which I think is what you are calling the "conspiracy theory" section. One small problem I have is with your use of "However." Yes, the Panel concluded bias was not the motivation, but the way you're stating it makes it seem like this is definitive evidence that bias was not involved. If you drop the "However," and replace w/ "In the view of the Panel, the broadcast was not motivated..." then I would be ok with that. Kaisershatner 15:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• That sounds fine. Note change above.Thatcher131 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Did you delete the line from the current version in which McAuliffe is quoted as referring to the documents as "forgeries?" I think that's significant - even the chairman of the DNC thought they were faked, even if he had the idea that they were faked by Bush supporters. Would you mind restoring that line? Kaisershatner 15:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• Using google and Lexis/Nexis I did not find the word forgery directly attributed to McAuliffe (or if it was, I missed it). He certainly implied it, and there is a transcript of a cable news show (I forget which one) where the host asked him if he really thought they were repubican forgeries, and he replied something like, I'm just saying it should be looked in to. If you can source the word forgery to him I will put it in certainly, and I will also take another look around the net and Lexis/Nexis before I finalize it. What we really need is a transcript of his comments on September 10 to reporters, since the various newspapers and bloggers who noted them only have selected quotes. He could have been saying, if they are forgeries, we should look at Rove. If he can be sourced to saying on Sept 10 that they are forgeries, a non-conservative agreeing with the forgery arguments on Sept 10 would be a notable addition to the main chronology. Thatcher131 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
• It's there in the line just above footnotes 4 and 5. Will Ed Gillespie or the White House admit today what they know about Mr. Stone's relationship with these forged documents? However this does not speak to whether McAuliffe knew early on they were forgeries because he made these comments on Sept 21, after CBS' Sept 20 retraction. I will look around again to see if I can find a source that says he used the word "forgery" earlier than that. Of course it can always be added later. Thatcher131 16:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your responsiveness (and while I'm on the subject, thanks for your work with the references!!). To be clear, I'm not implying that McAuliffe "knew early on they were forgeries," or anything about McAuliffe being involved, etc. I am implying that McAuliffe appears to have thought they were forged, something substantiated by his press release you have noted above. It's not a point about a conspiracy or anything, just a side note that "even" someone highly motivated to believe the worst about GWB appears to have conceded the docs weren't real. That's all I wanted in there. Kaisershatner 16:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Before Sept. 20, McAuliffe was asked about the documents in a Sept 10 press conference and possibly other places, I have not found transcripts. I think, based on the way the remarks were reported, that reporters asked him if the documents were forged, and he said (paraphrasing) "if they were we didn't do it, look at Karl Rove, and don't forget that the legit NG records still show he lied about his service." For example, Jack Kelly said in an editorial on Sept 19, Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe has tacitly conceded the memos likely are forgeries (emphasis added). Also read this Washington Times article (no Kerry fans there, obviously). I think if McAuliffe had come out on the 10th saying in his own words that he thought they were forgeries, it would have been reported. I think he was very careful (prior to the 20th) to always say in response to a question about the F word, I don't know but...

Given those constraints, can you think of a way to make your point clearer? Thatcher131 17:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think you have to contort yourself to try to make this point for me. It isn't the main idea of this section anyway, and the quotation itself serves to illustrate McAuliffe's view on the date in question. Thanks, and once again, looking at the work you did on the references, thank you SO MUCH. Kaisershatner 12:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

"End Notes" style of links reduces readability

As per this message left for Jimbo, I am deeply troubled by the "end notes" style of links in this article. I am convinced that this style of external links is degrading the quality of the wiki. Merecat 08:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• I read the message and I disagree. Certainly the method using {{cite}} and {{note}} causes confusion and number problems. However I believe the new system described in WP:FOOTNOTE is a great improvement. First, I don't understand your confusion, other than wanting to not have to click twice. The number of the citation in the text matches the number in the note section, so even if the browser is imprecise, it should not be hard to see which note is indicated. Second, the new method is more appropriate for some kinds of citations, like all the cites to specific pages of the Thornburgh report. Linking in the url would create a lot of duplicated text on the page and would be less helpful in finding the proof since it would not specify the page within a 250 page pdf file. Third, an inline url is worthless for any reference that is not on the web (such as the newspaper article under note 56, or a great many books, magazine articles, and newspaper articles from the past). Properly executed, I think the system is a great improvement. Thatcher131 06:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

For linking to web-based articles, "in-line" links are best. Footnotes/Endnotes are ok for hardcopy ref's, but not optimal for web-based citations. Merecat 02:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias are used for reference and research. As such, each article should have a bibliography so that a person using wikipedia as a reference or for research (where they will reference there sources), such as is wikipedia's intended use as an encyclopedia, source need to be referened in standard bibliographic format. Kevin Baas^talk 02:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Rachel Corrie to see an extremely high quality article which uses some links at the bottom of the page as well as many links within the body of the article. Perhaps you should tell SlimVirgin (a major editor there) that the link style she uses is wrong because as you say "each article should have a bibliography". Merecat 02:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• I do not think you should have tagged the article since the only discussion here is 2-1 against your view and you also did not get any support when you complained on WP:VPT. However I will not revert the tag as I was the one who converted all the citations in the first place. I strongly believe that even for a web link, a properly formatted footnote is better than an inline link because the footnote provides the title, author, source and date of the citation, which is extremely helpful if the link goes dead. With the source and date, a newspaper article can always be retrieved from a library, but if the link goes dead all an editor may have is a string of meaningless letters and numbers. I have posted a request for comment on WP:VPA because I do not think one editor should be able to deprecate an article's citation style when it properly uses the citation module specifically developed for the purpose. Thatcher131 03:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I refer you again to Rachel Corrie, a much higher quality article, which is much more readable due to better links style. Merecat 04:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Quoted from WP:VPA Inline URLs are not considered proper citations for articles up for featured article candidacy, and What is a featured article? states that "the meta:cite format is strongly encouraged". — TKD::Talk 03:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC) Of course one person's comment is not the end of the story. hopefully we will get some more opinions in the next few days. Perhaps you should make your case there. Thatcher131 05:04, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

What precisely do you mean by "in-line"? I mean links that are at the end of a line, not in the middle of it. I refer you again to Rachel Corrie, a much higher quality article, which is much more readable due to excellent links style. Merecat 05:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• "In-line" refers to the style of link you want, whether it is in the middle of a sentence or at the end; technically an embedded html link. Here is what Wikipedia:Citing sources says about inline links to newspaper articles:

A newspaper article referenced in an article by using an embedded link might be — [http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1601858,00.html] — which looks like this. [2] The embedded link is placed after the period, or when placed within a sentence after a clause, then after the comma. Then in the References section, a full citation is provided.

It is particularly important in the case of online newspaper articles to include byline, headline, newspaper, and date of publication, because many newspapers keep stories online only for a certain period before transferring them to the archives. With a full citation, readers will be able to find the article easily even if the link doesn't work.

The Rachel Corrie article has two problems. One, common to this method of citing sources, is that if the web link goes dead, the only way to find out which is the corresponding item in the reference list is to examine the page's coding on the edit page, and that may be beyond many casual users. With respect to that particular article, there are 32 embedded links but only 13 references. That means that the article is not following the citing sources guidelines, because for 19 of those 32 links, the title, byline, date and source are not given, so that if the link goes dead there is no way to find out what article it used to link to.

With the footnote method, the title, source and date are provided at hand even if the link is dead. For online sources you have to click twice to get to it, its true. I do not understand why that is so objectionable.

I note with interest that Wikipedia:Citing sources states that some modern style manuals have deprecated footnotes when used for merely citing sources, in favor of Wikipedia:Harvard_referencing. In Harvard referencing the ref is spelled out in the text by author and date, such as (Scott Hinderaker, September 15, 2004), with the full reference list at the bottom in alphabetical order. That returns to your other complaint, that the reference is separated from the text so that it is hard to find and remove the reference when removing text. Not to mention the fact that you have to add new references in alphabetical order. A hybrid method, such as inline links for on-web sources and Harvard references or footnotes for off-web sources, is possible, but Wikipedia:Citing sources also asks for consistency. Thatcher131 05:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Consistancy over readability is not so good. We make the rules and we can amend the rules. Simply put, several very experienced editors such as SlimVirgin have done much editng at Rachel Corrie and they have produced arguably the best article on any controversial related subject on the wiki. To ignore that model example of in-article links combined with end-of-article references, is to ignore the culmulative effort of many capable editors. I point to Rachel Corrie because it's much more readable than Killian documents. Personally, I feel much of the difference stems from the more easily followable links. Merecat 06:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• Are you really just bothered by the fact that the superscript footnote throws off the line spacing? Thatcher131 06:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

If a wiki article says to me something like according to the Inquirer "[t]here's nothing superior about Apple hardware." [1], as a reader, I want to be able to click right on the link and read the cited article. Forcing readers to 1st click to the bottom of page before they can read the article, is lame. Also, this method - forcing people to click to the bottom, is being abused on some pages - see Rationales to impeach George W. Bush. On that article, the links to the bottom of the page jump to numbered sub-sections of links. This leaves the reader guessing as to which source is the citation for the assertion they wish to verify/read. That said, although Killian documents does not currently abuse this technique as badly as Rationales to impeach George W. Bush, there still remains the problem of the forced double click and the difficulty of a less skilled editor trying to add some text with a citation via the tradition method of [2]. Suffice it to say, I feel that the blend of link methods used at Rachel Corrie is superior to the single style of links method used here. Merecat 18:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Merecats suggestion that Rationales to impeach George W. Bush is being abused, can only be described as inconsistent with the truth. What he see as more links to one sentence, in reality is one assertion being backed up by multiple references since Merecat et al, repeatedly assert no source exist for the sentence in question. Nomen Nescio 15:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Nomen, please comment on what I am discussing, not me personally. While I am only guessing at this, I am thinking that English may be your 2nd language. If that is true, then I am inclined to cut you a lot of slack in your word choice. Even so, I'd prefer that you not comment about me personally. Thanks. Merecat 19:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Merecat, I suggest you bring up the issue on WP:CITE and see if you can reach consensus. If no consensus emerges, then you'd be justified in complaining when someone changes over inline links. If consensus emerges in your favor, then you'd be justified in changing over links to the inline style. If, as I suspect will occur, consensus emerges against you, then you should stop. But until general consensus is established, as long as you're the only one holding your position against what seems to be everyone else commenting on the article as well as consensus on WP:FAC, I'd suggest you stop changing things over and putting up notices. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that the links system used at Rachel Corrie is wrong? Merecat 00:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what Simetrical's opinion is, but my view is that the system used at Rachel Corrie is one of several acceptable systems and the system I have used here is another acceptable system. And, as I have pointed out but you have not acknowledged, since the Rachel Corrie article uses only embedded html links, and since there are only 13 references for 32 embedded links, the Corrie article is not following policy that requires a fully documented reference for each embedded link, for use in case the embedded link stops working. Finally, since this article has footnotes to both online and offline sources, coverting to embedded html would require a hybrid system using both embedded html and footnotes or embedded html and Harvard references. I prefer to keep to one consistent system. Thatcher131 01:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I still think that at Rachel Corrie it's easier to read the supporting citations and I also think that it's easier to edit that article than this one. Merecat 03:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Journalistic hoax?

I disagree that this falls into the category of a journalistic hoax, certainly not along the lines of the other things in that category. Unlike Jayson Blair and other situations, I think CBS was absolutely convinced that they got it right. They were led into a bad situation by their willingness to suspend disbelief and ingnore contrary evidence in favor of what they believed was right. There have been other cases of this phenomenon (Winter soldier for example, or more recently the Iraqi who was reported by the NY Times that he was the one in a famous Abu Ghraib photo even though the Times itself had printed otherwise the year before.) Maybe we can have a category for this sort of scandal but I think the journalist hoaxes should stick to things that were intentionally perpeutated as hoaxes. Thatcher131 02:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

CBS itself, perhaps yes, though Mapes I feel, knows more than she admits. But as the rabid partisan that she is, Mapes still feels she did the right thing. Rather looked the other way, but Mapes knew the documents were smelly. CBS failed because it paid not enough attention - other than to initially blindly trust Mapes and Rather. Merecat 03:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hoax" clearly implies knowledge, not merely "paid not enough attention". The same people who are quick to accuse CBS of a hoax in the Killian documents incident would, I suspect, scream bloody murder if the term were applied to the mainstream media's failure to expose the Bush administration's prewar lies about Iraq. JamesMLane t c 10:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This was a hoax, just not a journalistic one. This was a fabricated partisan smear piece. Somewhat like the stuff Charles Colson might have done in his early days. Merecat 16:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't ascribe to malice that which can be explained with incompetence. --71.71.238.231 02:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

False claim: political motivation

I corrected the false claim that the view of the Thornburgh-Boccardi panel was "that the September 8 broadcast was not motivated by politics". The report said that it did not "find a basis to acuse" those involved "of having a political bias". That is not at all the same as what was claimed. -- JPMcGrath 05:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand the distinction but I don't have a problem with your edit. Thatcher131 06:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It's subtle, but I think JPMcGrath's point might be that the panel did not conclusively state political bias was not a factor, but instead stated that it did not find enough evidence to make that accusation, as "bias is hard to prove," in Boccardi's words. In any event, more precise citations are usually an improvement for an article. I think it's a good change. Kaisershatner 13:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Kaisershatner's reply is close, but I would go further. The Thornburgh-Boccardi report did not in any way conclude that there was no political agenda, conclusively or otherwise. It did not even hint that there was no political agenda. The panel concluded that it did not have sufficient evidence of the participants' motivations to make accusations of political bias. In short, it does not say whether or not there was bias. -- JPMcGrath 00:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

In contrast

I don't think "in contrast" is a weasel word, its another way of saying, these three experts say one thing; on the other hand, a fourth expert says a different thing. I don't care if it gets left off entirely, I just do see how it's weaselly. Thatcher131 04:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Good article?

I can't find the nomination or promotion for this article as "good" in the page history of Wikipedia:Good articles. I do believe it is Good (and that my own efforts to clean up and verify the sources are at best a minor contribution). However, to be fair I have listed it at Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes for review. Thatcher131 04:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It was never even nominated. The guy who listed it has done that several times now. The other ones got speedy pulled, but this was missed. Derex 05:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Contrast

(copied from Merecat's talk page)

I'd like you to reconsider your insertion of the word "partial". I get your point completely, however "In contrast..." is still true as it relates to the contrast between a computer and typewriter. The problem is that the word "partial" doesn't really make sense unless the reader also has access to your edit summary to get your train of thought. However, it's not appropriate to explicity tag Hailey with a qualifier ( "However, the argument that the docs were produced on a typewriter does not rule out the possibility that they were typed in 2004" ) unless we allow other statements to also get tagged with qualifiers that reduce or negate their impact. (Plus the qualifiers would be the editors' comments rather than describing the work of others) The documents authenticity is analyzed at the other article, this is just a quick summary and pointer anyway. If you think "in contrast" is too broad how about leaving the dependent clause off altogether and starting the sentence simply, "Dr. David Hailey..." It's minor, I know, but I just don't think your change helps much. Thatcher131 03:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no "contrast". I'll consider something else other than "partial", but it's not contrast. Contrast implies rebuttal and the controversy relates to the authenticity. Even if produced on a typewriter, it does not prove that it wasn't done recently and hence, still a forgery. Therefore, there's no "contrast" Merecat 05:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Their conclusions regarding the necessity of computer generation are clearly in contrast. One group says they were definitively computer generated. Another says a typewriter is possible. That's the definition of a contrast. It's not about authenticity per se. Find some other way to flag for the reader that there is a difference, and that will be fine. We're so scared of normal transition words maybe, possibly hinting at some conclusion that the writing here is generally abysmal. Of course, much of it is poor anyway, but there's no reason to make it gratuitously even worse. Derex 19:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Derex, you are in the minority here. Thatcher131, Merecat (myself) and Tbeatty all support the removal of the phrase "In contrast". Please stop bucking consensus. I am happy to dialog with you, but you are jumping the gun in a manner which makes that difficult. Merecat 19:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Let me clarify, please. I think "In contrast..." is a perfectly fine transitional clause that does not connote what Merecat thinks it connotes. I oppose "In partial contrast" mainly because it is clumsy and does not convey what he wants it to convey. I would prefer to leave it in but would not be opposed to taking it out entirely.
• On the further subject of the words tpbeatty took out and Derex has been reverting, those are indeed weasel words. The original sentence "The authenticity of the documents as photocopies of valid originals has been challenged" already conveys the message that some people think they are authentic and some do not. "purported photocopies of valid originals" makes no sense at all because they are acknowledged photocopies, its the orginals whose validity is at issue. What exactly do you want readers to understand after reading "alleged" "purportedly" and "supposed" that they won't understand by reading the version with those words left out? Thatcher131 20:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

First, Tbeatty's edit summary was "In contrast" is weasel words. No, it is not. He didn't say those other words are weasel words. In fact, his edit summary deceptively suggested that the only thing he did was remove "in contrast". Now, "purportedly" isn't a weasel word, it just doesn't make much sense there. "Alleged" and "supposed" are not only not weasel words, they are vital to neutrality. Bloggers have indeed "alleged" anachronisms in the writing. I spent a full day researching and debunking with citations every one of these. (I think that's in a sub-article now). Same with the "supposed" errors in style. I suppose it might be better to use "alleged" there as well. But, those phrases demand qualifiers because they are not known to be fact.

Everyone needs to go take a good look at WP:Weasel words to see what the phrase means; there seems to be quite a bit of confusion. Classic examples are things like "some say", "it is believed", etc. The notable feature is an appeal to some non-specific source or authority. Words like "alleged" are simply qualifiers indicating that the claim is not universally accepted. In other words, if we say "challenged because of errors in style" that signals that there are in fact errors in style. Rather, some argue that there are errors in style; it is an allegation; but it is not accepted fact. I don't care about "purportedly", but some qualifier must be made in the other two places, and I'll fight that fight unendingly. Removing "In contrast", though, is just basically stupid. Derex 21:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Derex, comments like this which you left on my talk page today, are not helpful - primarily because you don't specify what makes you call me an "idiot". Am I an idiot because we've met and you don't like me personally? I think not. Am I an idiot because you are having a bad day? That wouldn't be right either. Oh, I've got it, I'm an idiot because you don't like my song (sung to the tune of Harrigan):

I D I O T

That's my name it's idiot.

Anyway, other than because I may be an "idiot", why get so bent out of shape by two words ("In contrast")? Frankly Derex, I think you are overreacting. Merecat 23:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought I had put a comment here but I can't find it. Here's a similiar comment from my talk page: Au Contraire, there was a plethora of weasel words. The weasel is as ambiguous as he is superfluous. If those arguments cannot stand without the weasel words, they are not sourced properly. The example list is not all inclusive. Basically if the sentence isn't enhanced in any way by the word but is designed to create doubt or authority where none exists (or can be sourced), it's a weasel word. "Contrast", "purported", "alleged" and "supposed" are red flag words. I think all of them are in the examples in some way. Not to beat a dead weasel, but take the opinion by the Utah reasearcher. The term is "In contrast". The idea is that this is needed for NPOV and to give a different viewpoint. "In contrast" is trying to provide that. But in reality, the Utah researchers view needs to stand alone and be valid on it's (and his) merits. He should be an authority regardless of whether he is a minority or majority view. The rules don't change because of viewpoint. The whole idea of eliminating weasel words is to make sure the authority is located in the right place. In this case, the Utah reasearcher is an expert. His view is important, not because it is contrarian, but because he is an expert. Removing the weasel words makes sure that this is the case.--Tbeatty 05:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In this case, the documents are already qualifed with "authenticity is challenged". IT is sourced and it is factual that they were challeneged on a number of grounds. Creating doubt in that challenge is what Wikipeida is doing by adding "alleged", "purported", etc,. Wikipeida should not be doing that and istead rely on the sourced views. --Tbeatty 20:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Derex when he writes ""Alleged" and "supposed" are not only not weasel words, they are vital to neutrality." Gamaliel 22:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no need for additional qualifiers on a topic that is already qualified by the experts. Heres an example unrelated to this case but explains it: "John Smith was charged with murdering Joe Blow by the county prosecutor" or "John Smith was charged with supposedly (allegedly, purportedly) murdering Joe Blow by the county prosecutor." The first version is the accurate one. It is factual. The second version is weasel words. Even though the crime is still only "alleged" at this point, it is covered by the qualifier "charged" and it is attributed to who charged him. The charge was not "alleged murder", the charge was "murder." SImilarly in this case, the The documents were challengd, not "alleged documents" or any other qualifier. The specific documents that were produced have been challenged on a number of grounds.--Tbeatty 22:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC) \

Let's not allegedly purport to suppose that ostensibly, we feel there might be cause to agree. Let's just agree where possible. On issues like this, let's edit one word at a time, that way there will be no blanket reverts and each edit will stand or fall on its own. Merecat 23:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's another example: "CBS and Rather defended the authenticity and usage of the document for a two-week period." We don't need to put "alleged authenticity" or "purported authenticity" or "supposed authenticity" in this sentence. Wikipedia is only stating that CBS and Rather defended it. They are not stating as fact that the documents are authentic. In fact, adding a qualifier would be inserting unsourced doubt or authority. It is not essential to put weasel words in the article. --Tbeatty 23:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Why no Criminal Investigation of Forgery Source?

The article does not address the question of whether there has been, or why there hasn't been, a criminal investigation into the source of the forgery, which is presumably a criminal offense. It would seem to me the most important question of all in this whole topic, yet no one has ever been charged, and no investigation was ever announced afaik? How can this unless it is to coverup Karl Rove's dirty tricks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.191.250.81 (talk • contribs)

Troll feeding time. I think the "crime" would be really be civil libel or slander of either Bush or Killian. I don't think it is criminal to make up a document that isn't a legal instrument. Heck, half of wikipedia is made up. In fact, your accusation of Rove's dirty tricks is made up yet you haven't been arrested yet. I suppose this is another master plan by that evil genius Rove to discredit wikipedia. --Tbeatty 20:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Not interested. We could write endless articles on the "crimes" of various people that have not been investigated, and then wikipedia would be no better than Free Republic or the Democratic Underground.Thatcher131 21:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgery Has Never Been Proven

I added the word "possibly" to the first sentence of this article: The Killian documents controversy (also called Memogate or Rathergate) involved several possibly forged documents It has never been proven that these documents are forgeries.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.65.50 (talk • contribs)

I reverted you, sorry. The degree to which the documents appear to have been forged varies directly with one's political point of view. It is much more neutral just to note they are documents that were presented as authentic (which is unambiguously objectively true) and that they were not authenticated, and that many experts believe they were forgeries, etc. I happen to think they were obvious forgeries, but let's stick to a neutral description. Kaisershatner 15:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Rather still believes they were authentic. Or at least, that they have not been proven to be unauthentic. I added a blurb to this affect to the article, along with Rather's opinion that the story of Bush's service is more important than the nature of the evidence. I'll try to dig up a source for this, it was in an interview from, I believe, last fall, when he won some award. Bjsiders 15:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right but in order to keep that in it should be cited. Kaisershatner 20:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I haven't been able to locate the particular interview. I'll find it. Just probably not tonight. :) Bjsiders 22:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

"Possible" vs "Likely"

Anyone who thinks "likely" is NPOV compared to "possible" needs to learn more about the concept of neutrality and refrain from editing articles here until they do. Also, referring to valid edits as "vandalism" is extremely offensive. --SpinyNorman 18:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Should the Evolution article be edited to say that "some scientists" believe in evolution, instead of its many mentions of "many scientists" or "most scientists"? Is "some" more NPOV than "many" or "most"? --71.71.238.231 21:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to do so if you like - it isn't really relevant to the issue at hand. Too many of the "experts" who talked about whether or not the Killian documents were forgeries are not objective scientists but rather professional, political axe-grinders. The only relevant fact is that the documents have not been proved to be forgeries. Everything else is speculation. --SpinyNorman 22:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the memos are forged, as assuredly as they would be if they were found in PowerPoint format. Unless you believe in the existence of 1970's typewriters that could simulate kerning technology that Apple would get patents on in 1990. It is true that CBS's own commission refused to declare them forgeries, but they aren't the arbiters of the truth, especially when the subject is CBS's own malfeasance. --71.71.238.231 23:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, that's your OPINION. If you have proof they were forged then feel free to present it. Personally, I think they were forgeries too. But wikipedia is a place were facts (not opinion) are reported. --SpinyNorman 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Before bothering to meet your standards of proof (assuming your standards mattered to me), I need to know if you would consider a PowerPoint presentation describing Bush's TexANG record dated in the 1970's to be a forgery. Or if you would say "well, PROVE they are a forgery." That's what we're dealing with here. Technology that did not exist in 1970's. Surely, there is no law of physics that says someone in the 1970's couldn't have created a set of slides that just happened to look like a PowerPoint presentation, but if things that like cannot be accepted at face value as forgeries, then Wikipedia's concerns for the truth is worthless. --71.71.238.231 23:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Your "Powerpoint" question is absurd and unworthy of response. The technology to produce proportional spacing and superscript DID exist at the time and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. The question of kerning is more complex. However, there is no agreement on whether or not kerning was used in the documents so the point is moot. --SpinyNorman 23:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure you think it's absurd. It's a simple mental experiment to figure out just what one would accept as "proof," and when certain people are faced with a result they don't like, they try to pretend the experiment doesn't exist. Glad to see you've thoroughly thought through what would be required as "proof" before demanding it of others. --71.71.238.231 23:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I would consider mental masturbation to be "exercise". Asking if a PPT that purported to be from the 1970s is a forgery is a ridiculous question. I believe the documents are forgeries (though there is no evidence as to who forged them or the motives in creating the forgeries - for all we know, Karl Rove could have created them to plant in the hopes that they would be passed off as genuine and could then be "discovered" as forgeries in order to draw attention away from Dubya's appalling conduct in the TANG. It is interesting that when the documents were first discovered, Bush didn't immediately denounce them as forgeries and also that those with knowledge of the events in question say that even if the documents themselves were forgeries, the events the documents describe were real enough. Put another way, if I show you a photograph purporting show the assassination of Abraham Lincoln by John Wilkes Booth, the photograph itself may be a forgery but that doesn't mean Booth didn't shoot Lincoln. --SpinyNorman 06:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Spiny: Technology to produce proportional spacing and superscript did exist at the time, but the specific proportional spacing tech used in the memos did not. The question of kerning is not particularly difficult: the memos are not kerned in the digital meaning of "having adjustments in spacing between particular pairs of letters"; they appear to be kerned in the old metal typesetting sense of "having glyphs that protrude beyond the amount that they push the next glyph ahead" (that go beyond their advance width). --Tphinney 07:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Using "possible" over "likely" is certainly a POV statement if "likely" is more accurate, and in this case, it is. It doesn't say they ARE forgies, only that they "likely" are. And they likely are, as you yourself admit. Your blanking of the rest of the section needs some justification. Also, please stop calling people idiots and insulting people's intelligence. Bjsiders 00:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

And in the context you used it, "likely" is inherently POV. You're talking about opinions... Wikipedia isn't a soapbox, it is a place where objective facts are reported. If you have proof that the documents are forgeries then feel free to report it. Otherwise let's leave the bias and spin of a blatantly right-wing source like The Weekly Standard out of this article. As for the "idiot" comment, what else would you call someone who insists that the typography of the Killian documents is anomalous because it contained superscript or proportional spacing - technologies that were available LONG BEFORE Bush joined his "champagne unit". --SpinyNorman 00:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If there is a 90% chance that something is true, we call it "likely." Hell, if there's a 60 or 70% chance, we usually say it's "likely". If there's a 30% chance, we say it's possible. Listen to the weatherman. If there's so much as a 40% chance of you rain, you can hear them describe it as "likely" or a "fairly good" chance of rain. If there's a 10% chance, you hear, "possible showers tomorrow afternoon." You're arguing semantics here. I'm not talking about opinions, I'm talking about probabilities. Few things are statistically impossible, but that the Killian documents are legitimate is certainly statistically improbably. When that's the case, the proper terminology to describe the situation is that they are "likely" forgeries. I don't have proof. If I had proof, the article would say, "they ARE forgeries." Nobody has any proof. Only very strong and compelling evidence. I would call a person who makes that assertion a skeptic. Indeed, the Weekly Standard is not an objective news source. Neither is CNN.com or the New York Times. I'm not suggesting that the Standard should be given the same level of credence as the Times but as Dan Rather said, if the story is essentially true, the evidence doesn't matter. The Standard quotes a bunch of experts. Should we disregard their opinion simply because of where it was published? Do a google search on "William Flynn" and you'll find plenty of stories by objective news sources in which he is quoted as a documentation expert. Flynn's opinion can also be found on the Washington Post. Another quoted expert, Richard Polt, certainly appears to be authentic. I decline your overtures to reject this information on the grounds that the news source has a political bias. If that's the standard, I'm going to run through all of Wikipedia and delete any information, no matter how accurate, that is quoted from New York Times stories, because it's got a political bias. That is, of course, absurd, as is your insistance on either changing "likely" to "possible" or removing this entire statement. Bjsiders 13:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference to The Weekly Standard in the intro

This is a bad joke. TWS is a blatantly partisan publication and has no business being used as an objective reference in this article. To do so is in clear violation of wiki NPOV policy. --SpinyNorman 04:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Media Matters is also politically biased and has been used as a source on Wikipedia. Valid information doesn't stop being valid simply because a politically charged organization reported it. If that was the case, there'd be no such thing as "news" in the world. Bjsiders 13:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

How about the Washington Post? They said the memos were "almost certainly" forgeries. Or does their buy-in into this prove that they are conservatives, too? --71.71.238.231 15:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the East Coast papers all that well, but isn't the Post the "conservative" DC paper and the Times the "liberal" paper? Or is it the other way around? In any case, the experts quoted in the Weekly Standard article can be independently verified to exist and political affiliations can be researched. The article even spells out the political standing of one of them: "Either these are later transcriptions of earlier documents (which may have been handwritten or typed on a typewriter), or they are crude and amazingly foolish forgeries. I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but I won't let that cloud my objective judgment: I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s." So it's not like the Standard just hauled out a bunch of neocon Bush fanbois to echo Republican talking points. Bjsiders 15:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of Authenticity

Is there any evidence that the documents were not fakes?? The article seems to be taking a rather weak position on this issue, never definitively stating whether the documents were fake or not. I would think that the typography alone would be proof, as they simply did not have that kind of typesetting then. -- WhiteDragon 19:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody knows for sure, and the article appropriately indicates only what is probable. It's technically possible, however unlikely, that the documents are legitimate. Bjsiders 19:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as one of the experts quoted by the Washington Post, I would say that it is no reason to believe that the documents could be legitimate. I believe I conclusively proved that the memos could not have been produced on an IBM Selectric Composer, an IBM Executive, a Friden Just-o-writer, or a Varityper 1010. In two years, nobody has been able to point to any typewriter or low-end typesetting device available in 1972 which offered the level of spacing precision required to emulate those documents (18 units to the em, for font geeks). When I presented my analysis in a talk to 100 typographers at the St Bride typographic conference in London in October 2004, I offered $1000 cash from my own pocket to anybody who could point to a machine that could have produced the memos, given the issues I pointed out. Nobody has tried to take me up on my offer, which I still consider open and repeat here.

Note that I write this with no political agenda - my political leanings are rather overwhelmingly in the opposite direction.

Thomas Phinney 07:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Even if the technology to do the Psuedo Kerning were available, the Font used was not. This is almost as if we have the round earth, sun centric solar system theory versus the flat earth, earth centered theory. The flat earthers adamantly refuse to believe that a flat earth theory can be disproved despite the mathematical clarity a round earth, sun centered universe provides. The simplicity of the forged documents (i.e. MS Word on a modern computer) vs. the complexity for authentic documents (an Air Force Colonel possessed a unique, expensive and technically marvelous typewriter that can't be produced and that he apparently only used once) is why Occam's Razr was established.--Tbeatty 08:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, the font used was available at the time - just not on a typewriter or low-end typesetting device, as far as anybody has been able to show. (Note that by "the font" here I mean the exact letterforms, and the spacing thereof.) But in theory somebody could have gone to an actual phototypesetting or metal typesetting service and had the memos professionally typeset. Of course, that's an absurd idea, and not even the staunchest defenders of the memos' authenticity suggest it, but yes, the font did exist. Thomas Phinney 20:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Any discussion on the idea that somebody transcribed documents into Microsoft Word and then printed them out, and that result was accidentally claimed to be original documents? It does seem strange to me that a forger with enough care to get the military terms and time line reasonably right would make such a big screwup. There may have been an original version that has been lost, or maybe documents were read over the phone to whoever typed this. Of course that original could be a forgery as well.

That theory has certainly been put out there before (this has gotten so much discussion that few theories *haven't* been discussed!). Sure, that's possible. It's also possible that the documents themselves are forgeries, but the content is true. However, all we have to go on is the docs themselves, and what we can suss out from them. Thomas Phinney 08:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, my musings on the subject of Dr. Hailey's latest report on the memos can be found [[3]]. Some interesting actual new evidence, as he had access to un-faxed copies of the memos - but what it proves is open to debate. Thomas Phinney 08:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Wars: "identified by several experts" vs "characterized by several critics"

The [edit] to the opening paragraph by SpinyNorman seems to me to be questionable NPOV. On the one hand, I think "characterized" is actually an improvement over "identified," and is more neutral. But demoting the experts criticizing the memos to simply "critics" is unreasonable. Folks like me and Newcomer have earned our credentials. I think this reversion should be revised. (There's also a question of correct quantities: it's only "several experts," but if you want to talk about the number of simple "critics" you'd have to say "many critics" or "dozens of critics.") Thomas Phinney 08:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The cited Weekly Standard article refers to several experts. While thats probably simply their partisan take on the matter, since that's the publication that's been chosen to represent this opinion, the sentence should reflect what the article actually says. I think it should be changed back to "several experts", complete with quotation marks to clarify that this is what is stated in the article.Hal Raglan 16:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Arkon 23:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Calling them "experts" is unnecessary editorial comment. Using the more neutral term "critic" is a better way to go. --SpinyNorman 07:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure about that. Not all critical opinions are of equal relevance. If I happen to think they're fake, that's much less relevant than if a typesetting expert with 20 years of experience in forensic document analysis thinks they're fake. I may be a critic, but they are an expert. Possibly "critic" understates the importance of their views.Kaisershatner 18:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Two other folks agreed with my objection, and somebody changed it in the direction I had suggested. Then Spiny reverted it, ummm, because he disagreed. Seems like he doesn't like being outvoted by the community! I see somebody has changed it back already. Next time I will do it myself.... Thomas Phinney 07:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Documents also shopped to Moore and perhaps others?

Apparently, Michael Moore was shown these documents before CBS ran the story and declined to run with them because he thought they might be forgeries:[4]

“ ...Moore was asked during Q&A about the "Dan Rather story." After expressing some reluctance about saying anything, he told the audience that while making Farenheit he had been offered the same fraudulent documents by the same source.... Moore said he looked into it at the time and concluded that they weren't reliable. Not surprisingly, he really didn't seem to have any sympathy for Rather's mistake. He mentioned Burkett's name during the discussion, but never said that Burkett was his source. ”

This says something about Rather's/Mapes' judgement that Michael Moore of all people turned it down. OK maybe I'm showing a little POV there, but should we mention this Moore episode in the article? Are there others on the record as turning down this story? Crust 22:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

I think the recent changes regarding document experts have introduced excessive detail. Flynn wasn't the only expert, and the dispute over his views about apostrophe's is not the main focus of this article. I'd favor cutting this altogether, leaving something like "considered forgeries by a number of experienced document examiners" and in the footnote list them. Alternatively, we could go back to where this was before the mention of Flynn in the introduction. Kaisershatner 15:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I had very similar concerns, but have been too busy to post for the last week. The old version mentioned that there was a general issue and hubbub, and then had a citation or two to back it up. The current version has expanded one *representative* citation into being the whole story. This misses the entire point that there were *many* such articles and several TV pieces criticizing the memos, many from more prestigious sources than the one cited. I believe it should be reverted. Thomas Phinney 07:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Arkon 20:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

superscript "th" impossible source ?

I'm not sure how to put this into the article; FactCheck.org repeats the claim in their article titled "Update: Documents May Be Forgeries" at http://www.factcheck.org/miscreports256.html

...Subsequently, members of Killian's family said they suspected the documents weren't authentic, and experts quoted by conservative websites and mainstream news organizations said the documents could not have been produced by the typewriters in common use in the early 1970's. The memos contain proportional spacing, in which the letter "i" occupies less space than the letter "m," for example. And they contain the "superscript" character "th" (in “Report to 111^th F.I.S. administrative officer” in the May 2 memo, for example.) A feature of modern computer word-processing programs such as Microsoft Word automatically changes “th” to superscript characters when following numerals, but such characters were impossible to produce on ordinary typewriters in use in 1972. ...

and provides quotations from various people about it. And is lessthan sup greaterthan the correct way to do superscript in wiki-land? (LaTeX seems to be overkill!) --htom 04:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

OT discussion about authenticity

Hi. I took your advice and in from the Little Green Footballs wiki. That's a very curious date on your posting, since that's just after when I showed how the DoD records acutally do contain a proportionally printed document, the only one in the entire database of Bush's records and strangely and quietly released just a couple of days after CBS backed away from authenticating the memo: http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/bush_records, "Documents Released on September 24, 2004," page 6 (also note the funky fonts in the documents on pages 3&4). If you're little fuzzy eyed about recognizing proportional spacing, go here: http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/BushRecordPSClipRuler.jpg

Also, I don't understand why you're using that same murky instance of superscripting, that "Report to 111^th F.I.S." when I had already pointed out in the LGF thread that there are much nicer, cleaner examples here: http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/bush_records, "Part 6," page 45. It's undated, but it's rather obvious that it's not a Word document.

But you are indeed right that "a feature of modern computer word-processing programs such as Microsoft Word automatically changes "th" to superscript characters when following numerals," but if you look at the superscripting in *all* of the memos, you will note some strange discrepencies. A comparison of the superscripting pattern in the memos to what happens when you type them up in Word can be found here: http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/SScriptsCompared.jpg

Hmmm, not only are only some of the th's following a number not superscripted, but none of the st's. There is a strangely inserted odd space that can explain away some of this, but not others.

The discrepancies aren't at all strange. They look like exactly what you'd expect if somebody were trying to avoid the auto-superscripting. Not that that proves anything. Also note that there are multiple ways to defeat the auto-superscripting in Word, including editing afterwards, using an el instead of a one, and IIRC just hitting undo after typing. But what the inconsistencies do suggest is that it's unlikely that a skilled typist familiar with the device they were using made these memos in the normal course of their work. - Thomas Phinney 10:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as whether typewriters from the early 70's can do this sort of stuff, for some strange reason, all these typewriter experts ignored IBM Executives, or just mentioned them in passing without any demonstrable tests, despite these models being pretty common all over until being gradually replaced by businesses and agencies with the more reliable Selectric models. Those clunky old Executives could do a few tricks that the sleek Selectrics couldn't do, though. These are from a "Model C" Executive: http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/ExecSuperscript2.jpg and http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/ExecSuperScript3.jpg. A sharp eyed person will note that both examples are also proportionally spaced.

But undiscussed by all these so-called typewriter experts is the Diablo Systems daisywheel printer, made since 1969, and evidently common by 1972 when Xerox bought Diablo for $28 million. Diablo's cofounder, David Lee, left Xerox in 1973 to found Qume. Qume also made daisywheel printers that were code and plug-compatible with Diablo's to the point that ribbons and print wheels with interchangeable. It's important to note the the early Diablo printers were strictly for the OEM market, and hence sold under a large variety of names. See http://goldsea.com/Innovators/Digital/digital.html, http://mfelker5.tripod.com/printwheels.htm, http://www.okoffice.com.au/product.asp?pID=44193&cID=879

The Diablo is a big issue because all Diablo models could proportionally print with same spacing shown in the memos, and well as being being fully capable of full super/subscripting (via half line feeds). This is a code set for the Diablo's: http://www.nefec.org/UPM/dblomain.htm And besides having a variety of standard printwheels, evidently it was easy to get customized ones if a special character or two was desired. A PDF file with some reprints of computer-related articles from the 1980's has some backgound on this stuff,starting on page 14: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/atg1.pdf

The only serious dispute for the memos being created on a Diablo has been a claim by some die-hard pro-forgers that, yes, maybe Diablo's could only do all this, but in only 1974+ models. This is apparently related to some patent applications found on the Internet. However these patent apps seem related to a dispute that formed between Xerox and Qume when Qume started selling its Diablo compatible printers in 1973/74, and which eventually resulted in a lawsuit: Qume Corp. v. Xerox Corp., 207 U.S.P.Q. 621 (N.D. Cal. 1979). However all the information available indicates that all Diablo's, from their inception, came with a core code set that included the proportional and super/subscripting commands (they could also function as high-precision plotters.)

Hope this clarifies. And if someone wishes to dispute any of this, please do me the courtesy of providing some relevant countering evidence in kind instead of opinion or links to opinion. Obviously I've tried at least to be very thorough in presenting my case. I'm obviously in a very small minority with my view on the memos, but to paraphrase Anatole France, if fifty million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -BC 209.6.203.244 16:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Newcomer considered and rejected the Executive, for several reasons, along with the Composer, at http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm (click on the 18 Sept 04 update for the page about the Executive; each of the colors leads to a different multi-anchored page.) I do not remember him addressing the possibility of a HyType machine. --htom 17:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, Joseph Newcomer, PhD, long on words (and words, and words....), but a wee bit short on actual demonstration. As you might have guessed, I've been to his site and found it a bit lacking in actual scientific methododogy. You do not remember him addressing the Diablo HyType because he never did, as was the case with all these alleged experts that came out of the woodwork back then, like Peter Tytel, the "typewriter expert". I guess we can cut Tytell some slack since a daisywheel printer technically isn't a typewriter. But one can't really do the same Newcomer -- he makes an awful lot of claims about his expertise. From http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm: "I am one of the pioneers of electronic typesetting." and it just goes on and on from that. Also, he boldly states, "The probability that any technology in existence in 1972 would be capable of producing a document that is nearly pixel-compatible with Microsoft's Times New Roman font and the formatting of Microsoft Word, and that such technology was in casual use at the Texas Air National Guard, is so vanishingly small as to be indistinguishable from zero."

But as I've more than enough demonstrated, by 1972 there were two widely available devices capable of printing proportionally, and in superscript, and with a small font: the IBM Executive typewriter and the Diablo daisywheel printer. Both devices have been obsolete for decades, but would expect any sort of real expert to show due diligence in researching all the devices available around that time that might have possibly created the memos, discover and examine what their capabilities were, try to find print samples and/or specifications, and so on before rendering any sort of conclusion. In Newcomer's case, the Diablo is not mentioned once on his entire site, and the Executive typewriter is not even examined -- and even then, his sample is only a wedding program -- until until about a week, Sept. 18, 2004, after he makes the claim of forgery on or before Sept, 12, 2004. If that doesn't sound very scientific, that's because it's not: http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~bcb25/scimeth/intro1.htm

I seriously considered and dicarded the Executive, for multiple reasons, by the end of the first weekend after the Killian memos came out. Sure, it's a proportional device. However, in my mind the real question (1) whether the device was capable of the particular particular spacing in question (the IBM Executive was not, as I mentioned earlier on this page back in July), and (2) whether anything very similar to the Times Roman used on the memos was available for that device(again, not for the IBM Executive). See http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/21939.html?cprose=5-39. - Thomas Phinney 10:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I also had seriously considered the Executive. I did some research and got my hands on a copy of a technical manual that the author remembered being created on a Model "C" Executive. It was proportionally spaced and had full super/subscripting in small fonts. But as evidently with you, I found its proportional spacing to not match up with that shown in the memos. I don't think you can say much about the font or typeface since the Executives came with a choice of typefaces.

The point I was making is that there were at least two devices available around 1972 capable of proportional spacing and full super/scripting: the IBM Executive typewriter and the Diablo printer. Considering that the forgery charge initially with the false claim by the likes of "Buckhead" that there were no devices then that could proportionally space, this was not a trivial matter. Think about it -- the whole "there were forged" business got started with some then anonymous blogger making nonsensical (that is if you had bothered to check) claims about typewriters then and even things like Wang word proccessors could or could not do. And then have these self-proclaimed experts like Newcomer coming out of the woodwork discussing Selectrics and Veritypers and also claiming forgery before even looking at an Exexcutive and apparently utterly unaware of the Diablo. Of course our diligent media didn't exactly help to clear up matters... -BC 209.6.203.244 14:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Newcomer actually inadvertently provides strong evidence that Word was NOT used for the memos. Go back to his site here: http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm#12-Sep-04 There are two things to look at: one is the poor matchup character-by-character between his Word-created "from" and a memo "from". If you do further character-by-character matchups, you will find that the Word Times New Roman font is consistently inconsistent with the font used in the memos, especially in terms of height.

And further up the page, he makes an extremely damning admission: "I was a bit annoyed that the experiment dealing with the 18-August-1973 memo was not compatible, until I changed the font to an 11.5-point font. Then it was a perfect match, including the superscript 'th'". And then a little further down he tries to explain this away with, "However, this might be an accident of the many levels of transformation from the original (wherever that is) and the photocopying, scanning, document conversion, and re-printing. The 11.5-point font could represent a reduction to 96% of the original size in the various transformations."

Well....

First off, MS Word uses long established character spacing for Roman-style fonts. WordPerfect for DOS used similar spacing with its "CG Times" font, and it was also the default proportional spacing used in Diablo and Qume daisywheel printers (and don't forget that many of the early laser printers has a Diablo mode to "letter quality" printing). So you would expect at least a modest matchup between Word and a Diablo in terms of spacing, but an *exact* match? No, and the letterheads on May 4th and Aug 1st memos prove this. As well as eliminate Word.

"First off, MS Word uses long established character spacing for Roman-style fonts. WordPerfect for DOS used similar spacing with its "CG Times" font..." What do you mean by that? Both applications simply use the spacing built into the fonts (whether it was a system font or a printer font, depending). I have similar difficulty with the rest of your comments on the printers. I did a very careful analysis of the spacing; in order to match the memos, the font spacing would have to be a lot closer than any general non-font-geek's idea of "similar." (No offense intended, but if you think the font could be Palatino, you're not looking at the same level of detail you need to be.) - Thomas Phinney 11:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There was some research with different "Roman style" fonts, both with Word for Windows and Mac, as well as WordPerfect for DOS, to see how they compare to the font used in the memos: http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/CBSBushMemos.html#FunWithFonts Note how all the different PC-generated fonts both match and *don't* match the memo font in some aspect, including even Times New Roman, although they all indeed show "similar" spacing as I claimed. I can't return to this until tomorrow, but I would be interested in your opinion since you apparently genuinely looked at this stuff (I am just a troll after all.) -BC 209.6.203.244 14:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You can demonstrate this on your own if you are handy with a PaintShop type program. First grab the May 4th and Aug 1st memos from here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml Now replicate one of the letterheads as best you can using Word, print it out and then scan it in. Now then superimpose your Word replica as best you can on either of the letterheads and feel free to resize all you want. You should end up with what you might think is a pretty good match at first sight.

But now try superimposing one of the memo letterheads on the other. You will then find a true dead-on match that is noticeably much, much more accurate than your best efforts with creating a Word replica. You can see one such experiment here: http://www.aheckofa.com/FoolMeOnce/HeadersCompared.jpg The two upper samples were made from overlaying a Word-recreation of the letterheads over each of the two memo letterheads; the lower sample is from overlaying the two memo letterheards over each other.

But if there was all this claimed distortion and smearing that occurred when the forger tried to make the memos look old, how can that be that the memo letterheads are dead-on copies of each other?

If you believe the forgery scenario, then the May 4th and Aug 1st memos were originally created in Word and then were deliberately distorted to make them look old. But then how come they still end up as perfect matches to each other but not to a fresh Word replica? Where is "The 11.5-point font could represent a reduction to 96% of the original size in the various transformations" that Newcomer uses as an excuse to for using a very non-standard font size?

All I can say is tsk, tsk... -BC 209.6.203.244 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much need to disprove the Diablo HyType, as the first version of this venerable daisy wheel printer appears to have been introduced in 1973 (apparently in the fall), rather than having been in use in, say, the spring of 1972. At least, that's what every source I can find suggests. Do you have any actual evidence that the HyType was available in early 1972?

There were certainly a few proportional-spacing devices available at the time, but the Executive was not capable of doing the fine level of proportional spacing shown in the memos. It offered a much coarser set of predetermined widths than the memos, and its most similar available typeface was much wider than the Times Roman used in the memos.

As for the memos looking similar to each other, they all went through the same set of operations as far as photocopying, faxing, and being scanned into Adobe Acrobat. So it is perfectly reasonable that they would suffer the same kind of overall scaling distortion. None of the experts have claimed that they "were deliberately distorted to make them look old" - that is a straw man argument you created, not any kind of reasonable interpretation of your opponents' views. -Thomas Phinney 10:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Please provide at least one alleged source for the statement "I don't think there's much need to disprove the Diablo HyType, as the first version of this venerable daisy wheel printer appears to have been introduced in 1973 (apparently in the fall), rather than having been in use in, say, the spring of 1972. At least, that's what every source I can find suggests. Do you have any actual evidence that the HyType was available in early 1972?"

Define "actual evidence" -- I already showed that Diablo Systems as an independent company began making daisywheel printers in 1969 and was bought by Xerox in 1972 for $28 million, and that one of the co-founders of Diablo left Xerox in 1973 to form a rival daisywheel printer company called Qume. What do you think Diablo was doing between 1969 and 1972 when Xerox paid all that money for it? When Xerox bought Diablo, they got the HyType I. If that isn't enough proof, I found some ribbon crossreferences for the HyType I ribbon, which was mostly, but not completely replaced at about 1974-75 with the HyType II ribbon, and they link to a bunch of old, forgotten dedicated word processors dating back to at least 1972. If a 1972 word processor uses a Diablo HyType I ribbon, that kind of suggests that perhaps, perchance HyType I's were being used then. The best ribbon crossreference I found is no longer online, but this Swiss one isn't so bad: http://onlineshop.jpd.ch/sp/farbband-multistrike/qume-1145-farbband-multistrike-original-schwarz.asp

Note how you won't see either "Diablo" or even "HyType" mentioned -- Diablo Systems was originally strictly an OEM supplier.

Here's the promotional brochure from Diablo that came out in September 1973. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Xerox/XEROX.Diablo_HyTypeI.1973.102646256.pdf#search=%22Diablo%20HyType%22. But as you point out later, even if 1972 was the year it was introduced under that name, it wouldn't matter if the HyType was available earlier as OEM equipment. So what we'd need is some specific model of printer that was made in that way, to research. Do you have any specific names of printer models that one could research? - Thomas Phinney 11:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

My comments about the Executive were related to how it was not examined, along with the Diablo, by any of these alleged experts before they plunged ahead with their forgery charges. I strongly suspect that only reason why all discussions focussed on Selectrics, at least initially, was simply because there were and are Selectrics still in operation all over (primarily for typing up labels and filling in preprinted forms) and hence handy and not requiring much work. Since almost all functioning daisywheel printers and IBM Executives have long ago been scrapped, Selectrics became the default representives of all 1972 office technology. Until Marian Carr Knox mentioned that she used an Olympia typewriter. So then it was Selectrics and Olympia typewriters that represented all 1972 office technology, with a side discussion of Selectic Composer, a typesetting machine that would never have been used to create just memos. Executives made a belated appearance here and there, but Diablo's not at all. All of this represents inexcusably shoddy journalism by the media, and laughably incompetent "research" by all of these alleged experts.

As far as the aging of memos go, your claim that "None of the experts have claimed that they "were deliberately distorted to make them look old" - that is a straw man argument you created, not any kind of reasonable interpretation of your opponents' views" is demonstrably false -- I never said "experts" and many claimed this. Simply Google "Killian memos aged" for proof. And that excerpt off of Newcomer's site I used had this comment, "However, this might be an accident of the many levels of transformation from the original (wherever that is) and the photocopying, scanning, document conversion, and re-printing," basically claims that the memos were distorted through muliple processes. Indeed the first, original blog post that started the forgery bandwagon states (from http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210662/posts):

Did you fail to complete your quote here? I did some browsing, but I have yet to find any expert who claimed the memos were "deliberately aged." Certainly I did not, and neither did Newcomer. - Thomas Phinney 11:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

"Buckhead": To: Howlin

Howlin, every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman. In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts. The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90's. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn't used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80's used monospaced fonts. I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old. This should be pursued aggressively."

The font used was neither Palatino nor Times New Roman, but Times Roman. http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2006/08/bush_guard_memo.html - Thomas Phinney 11:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Please note all of the false claims about technology -- either "Buckhead" had no clue or was deliberately lying. But this misinformed nonsense is what got the forgery charges rolling.

Also demonstrably false and/or disengenuously misleading is your claim that, "As for the memos looking similar to each other, they all went through the same set of operations as far as photocopying, faxing, and being scanned into Adobe Acrobat. So it is perfectly reasonable that they would suffer the same kind of overall scaling distortion." If the memos were created in Word and then copied or faxed X amount of times, deliberately or not, if there any distortions at all, they would vary from copy to copy. You create documents A, B, C and so on, and then recopy and refax them enough times to noticeablely distort them from the originals, they're going to distort from each other just as much -- it's either a random process or else there is a defect in one of the devices that would introduce distortion on a particular area on the page. So if you start off with two identical letterheads, run each one through a series of copying/faxing/scanning operations and the final copies are still dead on perfectly aligned with each other, with no discernable ghosting or smearing, that means your equipment introduced no significant distortion.

No, you were right the second time with "or else there is a defect in one" (or more) "of the devices...." This is not unusual among faxes and photocopiers, and pretty well understood. - Thomas Phinney 11:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Now suppose after you do all that, someone hands you an original document with a very similar looking letterhead, and it's claimed that it was created on the same computer/printer combo that you used to create the documents you ran through all that processing on. Now, you're already determined that the processing introduced no significant distortion, so if the letterhead on that new document doesn't match up identically, then it was NOT created on the same computer/printer combo. And that's the case here: the memo letterheads line up with each other perfectly, with not even the slightest bit of discernable ghosting. The same letterhead created on Word will misalign and ghost in some area regardless of how much you adjust the scale and do your darndest to best fit them. There isn't a lot misalignment, but it's definitely there and very, very much like that shown in Charles Johnson's infamous CYA animated gif: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/Pictures/aug1873-pdf-animate.gif

If you take the non-forgery scenario where the documents were created on a very different device that used the same standard proportional spacing and a Roman-style font, and you then overlayed Word replicas and adjusted the scale and positioning for best fit, you should expect to get a reasonably good match but with some misalignment and ghosting at least. Which is what you would end up with if the memos had been created on daisywheel printer, with proportional mode turned on, and a little "th" character used on one of the extra printwheel spokes (and without an additional extra spoke for an "st").

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but it really sounds as if you think there is a single "standard proportional spacing." That is generally very untrue, whether it's typewriters or digital fonts we're talking about. With proportional typewriters of the era, each had its own system of possible letter widths that each font had to be adapted to fit to. In the case of the Selectric Composer, each particular letter had only a single possible width for, so every font was set to the same set of widths on that device. But all of the typewriter class devices for which I have specific information, which existed in 1972, were not capable of the 18-units-to-the-em system used for Times Roman in the memos - Thomas Phinney 12:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Veritas vincit. -BC 209.6.203.244 18:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the evidence for your claim that a daisywheel printer with proportional spacing was available to Killian in 1972? 71.212.31.95 05:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

To be more specific, you claim that daisywheel printers based on technology developed at Diablo Systems were "made since 1969" and were "evidently common by 1972". What is your evidence for that? You also appear to be claiming that these devices were capable of the proportional spacing exhibited in the Killian documents. What is your evidence for that? 71.212.31.95 18:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)